What current Catholic music will be esteemed 500 years from now?

[benedictgal]

As I said, you take these things way too personal. Just because I think that Lifeteen is in general an abomination that neds to go away, a view shared by many apparently, and this song you love to be rather putrid, doesn’t mean that I look at you as an enemy. No, you are just someone who has strong ideas about what they like. Those differ from mine. Thats all. Nothing personal.

Sarcasm is sarcasm nothing more and nothing less. As far as patronizing, I was paying you a compliment, You obviously know more about music than I. The fact that you refuse to see it as such shows just how deep your prejudices run.

That doesn’t surprise me either really.

I posted this in one of the LifeTeen threads, but it certainly bears repeating. It comes from the Lineamata, the Instruemtum Labrois that the Synod Fathers used the Synod on the Eucharist back in 2005. It makes a very telling reference to Youth Masses:

A*** few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.***

If the clergy answering the survey didn’t find these hymns problematic, why would they have noted them as one of the “shadows” that the Synod needed to address? Clearly, there is something very wrong here. Their concern was turned into a directive from Pope Benedict in Sacramentum Caritatis, most specifically in this section:

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. ***Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). ***Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

Agapewolf quoted the sentence: Certainly, as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another." This holds true for a good chunk (if not the entire catalogue) of music for Life Teen. This is precisely what the Synod Fathers saw in the survey and on which they trained their sights. They zeroed in on what many of us have been saying in the LT threads. There are problems that need to be addressed. These hymns maybe great for some Protestant pop concert, but, they aren’t suitable for the Mass.

Regarding the OP, inasmuch as I am not a huge Marty Haugen fan, I think that perhaps one of his songs, “For You, O Lord, My Soul in Stillness Waits” (not sure if this is a Haas song, someone will correct me) might, just might, survive a few more years. It is written along the same vein as O Come, O Come Emmanuel, at least as far as the O antiphons are concerned. We Have Been Told might also survive. It just should have made a more direct reference to Jesus in the lyrics. Taize might survive, but it has taken some liberties with the wording so that might be a bit of a problem.

Of course, if the Mayan prophecies hold true, the world might end on December 21, 2012 and the whole thing will be moot.

 

[JButky]

So, what great music of our own time will they remember us for in 500 years?

Most likely, It’s out there, people are writing it, but it is not being used. Someone will eventually find it, dust it off, appreciate it, bring it back after the composer has passed and those will survive.

Mendelssohn - Bach. Can you imagine St. Matthew’s Passion being lost?

Joe B

 

[Larry1700]

First, even though I played trumpet in junior high and high school band, I know very little about the technicalities of music, and cannot talk intelligently about it.

Second, while I have to admit I like singing songs such as “On Eagle’s Wings,” I firmly believe that the contemporary music should not be a staple at Mass. I prefer the traditional music (Gregorian Chant, Bach, etc.), because it has a more ethereal quality. In addition, I like the idea that it links us together with those Catholics of centuries past.

However, all that being said, I sometimes wonder if Bach, Mozart, etc. were considered “pop music,” or non-traditional music, during their lifetimes? If so, wouldn’t that mean that our own contemporary music might be considered traditional after it has been sung during Mass for 50 years or so?

 

[agapewolf]

Palmas, again, this the offense I take at the manner you speak to me has nothing to do wtih the arguments we have.

Nothing

The manner you speak to me, is very patronizing and sarcastic…

your little tag line “it doesn’t surprise me really” is a prime example.

The condescending tone you take with me does not help arguments. You have a right to your opinion about lifeteen, and that is absolutely NOT the reason that I take offense. Its a valid opinion, whether shared by many or not. (and if you’re gonna play the numbers game again, sure I’m outnumbered by the people who speak up on the forums, but not in my real world experience…just remember, you brought up the topic of numbers here).

I take offense at your tone, your condescending nature. I don’t think you view me as an enemy, but you certainly do not speak to me as a friend.

But this thread has been derailed enough. I’ve made my point with the song.

 

[Wolseley]

Who would like to name some contemporary pieces of Catholic sacred music, commonly used at Mass in our own era, that they think will be esteemed as great Catholic music 500 years from now?

I ask this question in response to the claim often made that “well, every era has bad music as well as great, and it’s only the great that gets remembered.” So, what great music of our own time will they remember us for in 500 years?

Well, there’s…uh,

Or maybe…no…

Of course, you could say…ah, not that one either…

Um…

Ah, none. What we have produced for the most part is superficial trash that will evaporate within 100 years or less. I suspect that by the time those who actually remember Vatican II are gone, the music will change drastically.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go turn my tape over and finish listening to some superb music before I leave for Mass: Judas Maccabeus (Georg Freidrich Handel, 1746).

 

[Sarabande]

However, all that being said, I sometimes wonder if Bach, Mozart, etc. were considered “pop music,” or non-traditional music, during their lifetimes? If so, wouldn’t that mean that our own contemporary music might be considered traditional after it has been sung during Mass for 50 years or so?

No, the sacred music of many of our past composers was not considered “pop” music. There was popular music at the time, some of which they wrote which were performed in secular venues. There was also the drinking songs and folks songs of each era which were not used during mass. Although some composers took the melodies of these songs and made it “worthy” enough to be used in the western art classical form. (I don’t mean classical as in the Classical Period of music in which Mozart was writing, but in the classical genre.) Some were even made appropriate for mass when created in chorales, etc.

In terms of Mozart, he composed many beautiful and spiritual sacred music. But even during his time, there was some debate where some of the bishops thought a few of his sacred works were too joyful for mass or just too much. (Most of this came from the Archbishop of Salzburg (Mozart’s birth town) who had a falling out with Mozart. He did allow him to have the unfinished Great Mass in C played at the Cathedral there with Mozart’s wife singing. But it was the last time played there until his widow and the help of Mozart’s friends and family worked on keeping the memory of Mozart alive back in Salzburg. The Archbishop was long gone and now when you go there, you hear Mozart in the wind and trees, etc. and they even have the music conservatory - Mozarteum.)

Others, such as the bishop in Vienna, loved all of his sacred music to be used. That debate is still going on today in some circles.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I’ve sung in a cathedral choir for the last 24 years. I grew up singing solidly Catholic hymns which were abruptly thrown out in 1968 in favor of “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word” and “They’ll know we are Christians by Our Love”. Things went downhill from there.

Why should any Catholic music written today be esteemed 500 years from now when we ripped out our Catholic roots wholesale and chunked them out?

Since we are in Advent and approaching Christmas, I will tell you that the closest that my choir gets to sing that is even remotely catholic (note the small “c” folks) is John Rutter which, if you go to track 17, you will be able to hear a small portion of “What Sweeter Music”

amazon.com/John-Rutter-Christmas-Album/dp/B00006JJ4T/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1197212737&sr=1-1

This is a lovely motet and I believe it will survive although it will not be Catholic but rather Anglican.

I’m going to stand with VociMike and Palmas85 - there is nothing being written today by we Catholics which anywhere comes near what one should rightly expect being heirs to Haydn, Mozart, Berlioz and Bruckner.

 

[VociMike]

“Love Has Come” by Matt Maher. It is a magnificent masterpiece.

(with the bridge)

You mean this one (one can listen to it online)? This is today’s version of Mozart, Palestrina, Monteverdi?

OK…

 

[E.E.N.S]

I’ve sung in a cathedral choir for the last 24 years. I grew up singing solidly Catholic hymns which were abruptly thrown out in 1968 in favor of “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word” and “They’ll know we are Christians by Our Love”. Things went downhill from there.

Why should any Catholic music written today be esteemed 500 years from now when we ripped out our Catholic roots wholesale and chunked them out?

Since we are in Advent and approaching Christmas, I will tell you that the closest that my choir gets to sing that is even remotely catholic (note the small “c” folks) is John Rutter which, if you go to track 17, you will be able to hear a small portion of “What Sweeter Music”

amazon.com/John-Rutter-Christmas-Album/dp/B00006JJ4T/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1197212737&sr=1-1

This is a lovely motet and I believe it will survive although it will not be Catholic but rather Anglican.

I’m going to stand with VociMike and Palmas85 - there is nothing being written today by we Catholics which anywhere comes near what one should rightly expect being heirs to Haydn, Mozart, Berlioz and Bruckner.

And I am going to stand stand by VociMike, Palmas85 and Brotherhrolf in agreement.

 

[Sarabande]

Since we are in Advent and approaching Christmas, I will tell you that the closest that my choir gets to sing that is even remotely catholic (note the small “c” folks) is John Rutter which, if you go to track 17, you will be able to hear a small portion of “What Sweeter Music”

Some of John Rutter’s is pretty nice.

This composer, Harold Boatrite, I believe is close to the spirit of sacred music composition. He is brilliant as a person and a convert to the Catholic Church from the Episcopal church. Very devout and loves the TLM. He was also my husband’s composition teacher. (Hubby just does it for fun.) I was trying to copy some of his sacred choral motets from a live performance we attended, but can’t work it.

The only one I can get is from the Mater Ecclesiae website. His Ave Maria. Composed in 2003.

materecclesiae.org/

P.S. Some of his other works for sacred music

Qui Seminant
The Holy Child (very lovely) (2003)
Three Alleluias - Prelude; Carol; Round (1957)

 

[brotherhrolf]

You mean this one (one can listen to it online)? This is today’s version of Mozart, Palestrina, Monteverdi?

OK…

Oy! Ohhhhh! Mozart? Palestrina? Monteverdi? Haydn? Bruckner? Sounds like the closing song on a Highlander TV episode.

Sarabande: I have brought Harold Boatrite and his website to the attention of our choir director - unfortunately too late for this year.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Oy! I went back and listened to it again. This is supposed to be the equivalent of Mozart, Haydn, Berlioz, Bruckner et al (I will not profane Palestrina or Monteverdi).Out of the depths we cry to you O Lord…Lord hear our prayers!

 

[agapewolf]

If you will all read my past post…you cannot judge the value of a song at the recording.

This is done by studio musicians who are writing their parts as they play them. Improv in the studio. This arrangement is done for an album…to sell. (which is part of the reason that great works aren’t coming out…it doesn’t fit the mold of what is marketable).

If you all heard a child plunk out “twinkle twinkle” on the piano, you hear a children’s song. Nothing worth noting, yet Mozart saw fit to write twelve variations on the melody. Don’t mistake the interpretation for the musical piece itself.

If you were to do a micro analysis (and that is actually what it is called) of this piece, chord structure, etc, you will find it parallel to the great sonata form. Modulations, rhthym structure, counterpoint in the bridge, recapitulation. IF you could hear an orchestral arrangement of it, you would have a hard time finding the difference between this and a common classical sonata. Portions of the melody line is also similar to “All Creatures of our God and King”

No one hear seems to be able to talk intelligently about this piece…all I’m reading is “ugh its bad…(add sarcastic remark)”.

I have an actual detailed explanation that no one is able to refute.

again, taste does not cut it in this discussion

 

[Dauphin]

I think people are being a bit too harsh! There’s some 20th-century music that’s at least decent:

Tantum Ergo - Vincent McDermott (He’s still alive!)
stagnes.net/media/music/AdoramusTe/17.wax

Agnus Dei - Samuel Barber (Died 1981)
westminsterchoircollege.org/music/wcc_ad.mp3

I think both of these have a chance of lasting for some time.

 

[brotherhrolf]

If you will all read my past post…you cannot judge the value of a song at the recording.

This is done by studio musicians who are writing their parts as they play them. Improv in the studio. This arrangement is done for an album…to sell. (which is part of the reason that great works aren’t coming out…it doesn’t fit the mold of what is marketable).

If you all heard a child plunk out “twinkle twinkle” on the piano, you hear a children’s song. Nothing worth noting, yet Mozart saw fit to write twelve variations on the melody. Don’t mistake the interpretation for the musical piece itself.

If you were to do a micro analysis (and that is actually what it is called) of this piece, chord structure, etc, you will find it parallel to the great sonata form. Modulations, rhthym structure, counterpoint in the bridge, recapitulation. IF you could hear an orchestral arrangement of it, you would have a hard time finding the difference between this and a common classical sonata.

Oh agapewolf, I’m kinda coming out here from left field but I mean what I said - it could be fully orchestrated with choir and it would still sound like that what it is - the closing sound bite on a modern TV program. If I had to sing this as the recessional in my parish…frankly, I’d resign. We still sing Mozart, Haydyn, Vivaldi, Palestrina, Monteverd, Bruckner et al because their music is timeless.

All I can see is the end credits of a modern TV program scrolling up.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I think people are being a bit too harsh! There’s some 20th-century music that’s at least decent:

Tantum Ergo - Vincent McDermott (He’s still alive!)
stagnes.net/media/music/AdoramusTe/17.wax

Agnus Dei - Samuel Barber (Died 1981)
westminsterchoircollege.org/music/wcc_ad.mp3

I think both of these have a chance of lasting for some time.

What you say is quite true mon Dauphin but your avereage parish choir is more inclined to be exposed to what agapewolf posted.

 

[Steeltemplar]

They are around, but unfortunately their works are not the ones commonly being done for mass. I do believe that there is sacred music being composed today that equal the genius of these masters, but I only get to hear them in very, very few parishes. Also, many do not get their works promoted by the influential publishers.

It would be very interesting to hear some of their work. I take it that another problem is finding people to perform what they write? I mean, an obscure Catholic composer is unlikely to get the English Concert or the Academy of St.Martin-in-the-Fields to perform their work. A good performance, I have found, can mean a lot. That is why I have four versions of Mozart’s Requiem

Another problem lies with the state of western art music composition in general.

My exposure to 20th century western art music has primarily been through a university class which I took. I loved the class overall, as it was an intro survey type course and so exposed me to wonderful classical music. Then we got into the 20th century. Somewhere in the 20th century people decided that we had to at all costs stretch the bounds of what was considered music so that eventually “music” seemed to encompass all sound, no matter how discordant and unpleasant. I really cannot abide composers like Schoenberg. In general, ideas like writing music mathematically seem to be without soul and produce works which I dislike.

Then you have John Cage with his 4:33. For those who do not know, 4:33, a piece which can be played with any instrument (I saw a video of it once performed by an entire orchestra), is literally 4 minutes 33 seconds of no one playing their instruments. Some people mistakenly call it 4:33 of silence. Not so. The idea was that the “music” would be whatever noises happened to occur during that period. I will say that Cage had an interesting idea. However, I think that it is given too much praise for what it is. And I certainly would never call it music.

Then came the meshing of popular style genre music into sacred style genre around the same time of this void in compositional writing. Had it been a 100 years before or 50 years before then might have just fallen back on previous composers’ works, but because the doors were open to the trendy styles of the day, those styles filled the void instead. (This is just my theory on it)

I suspect that you are at least partially correct there. There is also a change in culture which was probably also a part of the genesis of the modern ideas of art music. We have seen in the last century an increasing idea of rebellion against tradition for its own sake. A push to be hip and trendy as if those things were a worthy end unto themselves. The value of the traditional ways is being lost.

Also, we are a society which is very centered on quick gratification. I imagine this to be a factor also, both in composition and appreciation.

I hope I’m making sense here.

Yes, you certainly did Thank you for your insight.

 

[Arnobius]

Well, there is music still being composed, but it tends to have a small following. Modern composers such as Henryk Górecki and Arvo Pärt have been dedicated to religious compositions. I imagine it will be people like them who are remembered farther into the future while the Marty Hagen David Haas songs will be forgotten,

We tend to forget that earlier periods had popular songs as well and they are almost never remembered.

Perhaps we need to do more that is worth remembering.

 

[pm1853]

Well, there is music still being composed, but it tends to have a small following. Modern composers such as Henryk Górecki and Arvo Pärt have been dedicated to religious compositions. I imagine it will be people like them who are remembered farther into the future while the Marty Hagen David Haas songs will be forgotten,

We tend to forget that earlier periods had popular songs as well and they are almost never remembered.

Perhaps we need to do more that is worth remembering.

Depends on the crowd. A lot of people know of Arvo Part, but probably not many of the every day church goers.

Morton Lauridsen is another one who people in the states might be more familiar with. His O Magnum Mysterium is rather nice and might last. John Taverner, regardless of whatever issues people might have with him currently, has written some unbelievably beautiful religious music (the Funeral Ikos being my favorite). In our very own OCP hymnals there has just been published a new hymn which could very well be one of the best Marian hymns I’ve ever heard (Hail Mary, Our Icon).

To say that no music will be remembered reflects only a lack of knowledge of all the music thats actually out there. We’re in a bubble because, well…we’re only exposed to a lot of “the chaff” so to speak. How many of us knew of Mr. Boatrite’s music before that post earlier? Well, now we know. Lets get it to the people that can get this music heard by the throngs.

 

[Arnobius]

Ah yes I remember Tavener, but did not mention him since I thought the issues might lead to a derailing of the thread.

I will confess my ignorance to Morton Lauridsen though, as I had never heard of him until I read your post.

We do need composers from our era who can elevate our minds and hearts the way they did in the past generations.