What current Catholic music will be esteemed 500 years from now?

[Joannm]

I guess if we are going this far back into the 20th century, we should make mention of **Maurice Durufle (1902-1986). **He may have not been prolific, but practically every piece of music he composed was absolute genius and will be remembered for generations to come. His use of the chants within his music is so filled with spiritual beauty and pure genius. Sometimes when people do that, it sounds like what a Thomas Kincade painting looks like. It may have all the proper attributes of technique, training and knowledge, but the output is just not up to par - basically looks/sounds sweet or nice and can possible win over the general public, but it’s not deep art or true genius.

But Durufle - His Requiem is a tear from Heaven. The Pie Jesu tears you apart - singing it even tears it more so.

.

Durufle’s Requiem is absolutly beautiful. I too love his use of chants.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Even of the above stated Mr. Boatrite?

Check out post 30

Oh, perhaps not. But I interpreted (probably mistakenly) that the thread is referringto modern music…you know, modern style. So my post was referring to this kind of music. Not traditional music composed today.

 

[VociMike]

Oh, perhaps not. But I interpreted (probably mistakenly) that the thread is referringto modern music…you know, modern style. So my post was referring to this kind of music. Not traditional music composed today.

As the OP, I was mostly referring to those styles of music that are commonly heard by everyday Catholics at Mass. So far, and not surprisingly, none of the suggestions except one fits that category. But I’m glad to see the thread expand to also cover contemporary music that is worthy yet largely ignored. That is the other side of the coin to music that is less than worthy yet highly promoted. Both situations tell us something about the current state of Catholic music, and what needs to be done to improve it.

 

[Arnobius]

I forgot to mention Francis Poulenc (1899-1963), who composed religious works as well.

Or are we limiting it to after Vatican II?

 

[Sarabande]

I forgot to mention Francis Poulenc (1899-1963), who composed religious works as well.

Or are we limiting it to after Vatican II?

Oh, my goodness! Yes, wonderful religious works. His “Dialogues of the Carmelites” (although an opera) is wonderful. You would think that the music would be difficult to a listener who wasn’t familiar with opera and especially to “modern” composition, but people I knew who came to see me perform the small role of Mere Jeanne in it were so incredibly touched - some to tears - by the story based on the true-life martyrdom of the Carmelite nuns during the Reign of Terror in France and the music.

 

[Guitar]

So far, and not surprisingly, none of the suggestions except one fits that category.

I mentioned Richard Connolly’s hymn tunes (latter half 20th c.). Christopher Willcock is another competent composer with a couple of “classics” in regular parish use, more regular in some palces than others but still in the “generally known” category. (I don’t know how well known they are internationally, in fact many countries might have their own competent composers who are represented in domestic hymnals but not known outside their country.) Neither of these composers are anything like the Haas/Haugen style of songwriter. Whether they’ll last 500 years … ? Dunno … especially considering that even some works by The Great Composers didn’t/won’t last that long.

“Modern music” encompasses a very great deal more than Haas and Haugen, as this thread shows, which is why I tend to have a problem with people decrying “modern music” in general. It is true to say, though, that muggins-in-the-pew probably gets far more exposure to the Haas/Haugen style of it than any other kind.

 

[old_school]

I would think such classics as the Table of Plenty and On Eagles Wings… I mean if those arent true classics then what are?!

 

[palmas85]

I would think such classics as the Table of Plenty and On Eagles Wings… I mean if those arent true classics then what are?!

:bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:

Hey, you forgot the all time classic
Love Has Come by Mat Maher:thumbsup:

As it has been eloquently pointed out:

If you were to do a micro analysis (and that is actually what it is called) of this piece, chord structure, etc, you will find it parallel to the great sonata form. Modulations, rhthym structure, counterpoint in the bridge, recapitulation. IF you could hear an orchestral arrangement of it, you would have a hard time finding the difference between this and a common classical sonata.

the fact that the piece has three key main modulations, while during the bridge exploring some secondary dominants and hints on the sevenths shows some genious in the writing…Also has quite an obvious counterpoint in there

-the bridge is actually brought to a low, and must escalate to a climax of the piece of sort, right before the racapitulation.

It’s basic sonata form. Has all the complexities of a classical piece. And by the way, the classical composers had cymbals.
Banging cymbals in fact…read psalm 150…The classical composers also employed the “FF” volume as well.

This song must be the classic hymn of all the ages.

 

[Sarabande]

“Love Has Come” hymn

I didn’t look up this hymn when it was originally brought to the table. But I kept seeing it be bashed, so I looked up the sheet music and a recording myself.

While I don’t find this a great hymn, I also see what the poster pointed out in regards to the compositional technique. I’m a musician, but not a composer. My husband who has studied composition, knows a lot more than me, but is not home for additional (name removed by moderator)ut on this, so my apologies if I can’t add more and I’ll do my best to speak in layman’s terms.

I agree that the opinion of just not liking it doesn’t go far. People can say that of a Palestrina piece and if that’s all the reason for someone to totally disregard there music, there would be trouble - and there definitely has been as seen for these many years.

I believe what needs to be determined is if a piece, stylistically, is appropriate as liturgical music. All the music we have been talking about uses the Western scale, but what matters is how it is used. Does it have too much of a secular style to it? Does it sound too much like popular music? There have always been rules in composing liturgical music which is why for a couple of centuries there have been debates on certain compositions by even the best composers.

The person who wrote this piece obviously has some ability and knowledge of compositional writing. Simplicity in melody has never been a problem, especially for hymn writing. It is definitely something that would be easy to sing. And it’s true that there there is some use of counterpoint. The difference is how his ability was used. Although he has taken western art form, it was written in a kitsh, showtune or movie-music style (especially when you do hear it as an orchestrated piece). For example, the use of three half step modulations to create the feeling of sentimentality that you would hear in popular songs which are usually abrubt and not subtle. Yes, there are many uses of modulations in the sonata form, but it is usually a bit more subtle and for some of the better ones, so hidden you can sometimes miss it. So, if comparing to the pieces of western art music composed in sonata form, it is substandard. But in pop writing blatant modulation changes are great and work very well. The development really isn’t that spectacular either compared to others. The little motif that you hear is cute, but again it borders too much on kitsch and popular music. Phrasing is a bit “beginner”, but it is also a hymn, so it’s a bit difficult to compare to more complex pieces. There is nothing wrong with that kind of style as the piece compositionally is one of the better ones for that genre, although many would agree that it is something more secular and popular, rather than appropriate for liturgy.

Just only looking at this piece, it would be something I liken to my Thomas Kincade analogy. Kincade definitely has ability and has technique. He’s got the paint, brushes, usage of shading, mixing, somewhat of a point of focus and can paint better than I ever could. You can tell he understand the basics of classic art, but he uses his ability in a popular way. It’s not great art - nothing that really wrenches you or truly affects you, but it’s sentimental - wonderful for cards or pictures in books. Although, it’s nothing you’d want to see in a fine art music and held up as piece of inspiration art. That’s not to say individual people might find something special in it. The same sort of goes with Rococco art - sugary, saccharine, powdery, pastel colors, etc - beautiful and obvious much better technique than Kincade in a way, so it does belong in fine art museums especially since it is also a somewhat important period in art history. But it was popular art of the time and it wasn’t something which moved one past the surface or at least a couple levels past the surface. It was done to sugarcoat the truth.

I am just trying to give a fair analysis of this piece and I hope the poster will understand that I am in no way trying to condescend. I’m just trying to discuss even when there is disagreement with opinion or analysis. Thanks

 

[agapewolf]

Sarabande,

I didn’t find your analysis condescending at all, but very fair.

and I agree with you about what is written as is and recorded is substandard.

But my point is that it is template…for further expansion. Matt recorded one of the versions in his basement I hear. The other, although in a studio, was also impromtu musicians.

I have the full piano part, and he doesn’t have the written orchestral parts published. The piano part isn’t meant to played note for note, but ad libbed on. When I have played with Matt at different events, he doesn’t provide music…he gives us the key and the basic chord format and its “go time”.

My friend arranged one for orchestra, and the final product was incredible. The template really allows for an amazing expansion of ideas…especially in the bridge, which is not just part of the simple key change, but a journey.

Matt did not write this for an orchestra…he wrote it for a band, to put on a CD, that sells to youth. I just see great potential.

The melody line is EXTREMELY similar to “All creatures of our God and king”.

Those that are comparing it to T.V. songs might want to remember that a lot of our T.V. songs, cartoons, jingles and thingsare now ripped from the classical pieces.

 

[Sarabande]

…But my point is that it is template…for further expansion. Matt recorded one of the versions in his basement I hear. The other, although in a studio, was also impromtu musicians… (Edited to reserve space)

…My friend arranged one for orchestra, and the final product was incredible. The template really allows for an amazing expansion of ideas…especially in the bridge, which is not just part of the simple key change, but a journey.

I understand what you mean by the usage of the template having seen the sheet music for it on-line, although only of the melody line. It’s simple and naked enough to create something like a Chorale. It would be interesting to see what Bach would have done with it as I know you know that he did that a lot with simple melodies. I would also be interested in what Britten would do. He did some beautiful settings of simple melodies. Vaughn-Willliams too. What he did orchestrally on the Fantasia A Theme of Thomas Tallis was gorgeous, although most of Tallis’ harmonizations were still there. I can also see how you could take this hymn melody and then orchestrate it to let it work better within various styles. Personally, I’d like to see it set like a Chorale.

Matt did not write this for an orchestra…he wrote it for a band, to put on a CD, that sells to youth. I just see great potential.

I could definitely see that with the recording I heard, which explains why it is more in the popular/secular form.

The melody line is EXTREMELY similar to “All creatures of our God and king”.

I would say the structure is similar, especially the second part of the hymn to the Alleluia line of “All Creatures of Our God and King”.

Those that are comparing it to T.V. songs might want to remember that a lot of our T.V. songs, cartoons, jingles and things are now ripped from the classical pieces.

Well, I don’t know about a lot, but they really cheapened the Lakme Duet and Beethoven’s symphony No. 5 for me.