What current Catholic music will be esteemed 500 years from now?

[palmas85]

If you will all read my past post…you cannot judge the value of a song at the recording.

This is done by studio musicians who are writing their parts as they play them. Improv in the studio. This arrangement is done for an album…to sell. (which is part of the reason that great works aren’t coming out…it doesn’t fit the mold of what is marketable).

If you all heard a child plunk out “twinkle twinkle” on the piano, you hear a children’s song. Nothing worth noting, yet Mozart saw fit to write twelve variations on the melody. Don’t mistake the interpretation for the musical piece itself.

If you were to do a micro analysis (and that is actually what it is called) of this piece, chord structure, etc, you will find it parallel to the great sonata form. Modulations, rhthym structure, counterpoint in the bridge, recapitulation. IF you could hear an orchestral arrangement of it, you would have a hard time finding the difference between this and a common classical sonata. Portions of the melody line is also similar to “All Creatures of our God and King”

No one hear seems to be able to talk intelligently about this piece…all I’m reading is “ugh its bad…(add sarcastic remark)”.

I have an actual detailed explanation that no one is able to refute.

again, taste does not cut it in this discussion

Agape, if taste doesn’t cut it what does? We’re talking about music here. Personal taste has to count for something. We are not all musicians or singers. The fact that the song sounds terrible, and I have taken the time today to listen to various versions of it, means something. It really does. It really doesn’t matter how well crafted a song is or how much in its structure it resembles some form of sacred music. You cannot make a sows ear resemble a silk purse. If something is bad its bad. Just cause its modern doesn’t make it good.

Maybe just maybe the problem is that you don’t like it when your ideas are disagreed with and people don’t see what you see and appreciate what you appreciate. I used to have that problem when I was younger, very badly as a matter of fact.

But I’ll tell you what. You point me to a good version of this thing because from what I’ve found they all sound basically the same, and I’ll listen to it objectively. If I have been wrong in my assesment that this song sucks, sorry to put it so bluntly, then I will apologize publicly on this forum

AS I HAVE DONE IN THE PAST ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.

Hows that? I think its very fair.

Actually what have you got to lose?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

When music is remembered, it is not always because it is considered great.

I have no doubt that 400 years from now, in music history classes, under the part of the class titled “The Catholic Church in the 20th/21st centuries”, “On Eagle’s Wings” and “Be Not Afraid” will be discussed. They are so widely sung and loved that they MUST be included in any discussion of the music of this era.

No one is saying they are good; but they will be remembered for their notriety.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Gee- I have my feet on the ground here. I have sung Rutter. I have CDs of Part and Gorecki but have yet to sing a single piece of either.

It shakes me to the soles of my feet to think that Be Not Afraid and On Eagles Wings (aka the “You who” song) will be remembered as our heritage. Ouch!

 

[benedictgal]

When music is remembered, it is not always because it is considered great.

I have no doubt that 400 years from now, in music history classes, under the part of the class titled “The Catholic Church in the 20th/21st centuries”, “On Eagle’s Wings” and “Be Not Afraid” will be discussed. They are so widely sung and loved that they MUST be included in any discussion of the music of this era.

No one is saying they are good; but they will be remembered for their notriety.

That may not necessarily be the case. We don’t have a plethora of songs that we can be proud of from this era. As you said, no one is saying they are good. However, I don’t think that the notorious ones are so easily remembered, unless you are teaching a course on how not to write Sacred Music.

I don’t know if anyone knows Spanish, but there are some really beautiful pieces that might survive a few generations. One of them is “Donde Hay Caridad y Amor”. I’ll try to post the English words to the song (they don’t match the music, though). Another one is “Bienaventurada eres, Virgen Maria, Que Llevaste en tu ceno al Hijo del Padre Eterno” (it is the Magnificat, in essence) and “Racimo y Trigal.” I’ll try to get the English words.

 

[Guitar]

To say that no music will be remembered reflects only a lack of knowledge of all the music thats actually out there. We’re in a bubble because, well…we’re only exposed to a lot of “the chaff” so to speak. How many of us knew of Mr. Boatrite’s music before that post earlier? Well, now we know. Lets get it to the people that can get this music heard by the throngs.

That’s more-or-less how I see it. I’m now quite out of date on what’s out there on the international scene in terms of professional classical composition for the church but that scene is certainly out there, even if some of it is currently performed more often in recitals than in church. The chaff won’t last 50 years. There are some quite worthy 20th c. hymn tunes and sacred art music, way superior to the bulk of what’s “popular”, that will last a lot longer (Richard Connelly’s hymn tunes, for example) but I doubt will survive 500 years, and there may be material/composers that are relatively obscure now who will. What lasts isn’t always well known or popular in its day, and even the works that do survive can fall out of the repertoire for a period (I see someone has already mentioned the classic example of Mendelssohn reviving public performance of some of JS Bach’s works).

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

None! I’m yet to hear any modern music that is worthy to be remembered.

 

[pm1853]

None! I’m yet to hear any modern music that is worthy to be remembered.

Even of the above stated Mr. Boatrite?

Check out post 30

 

[Sarabande]

It would be very interesting to hear some of their work. I take it that another problem is finding people to perform what they write? I mean, an obscure Catholic composer is unlikely to get the English Concert or the Academy of St.Martin-in-the-Fields to perform their work. A good performance, I have found, can mean a lot. That is why I have four versions of Mozart’s Requiem

This is also very true. You need a lot of good promoting and connections to get your music performed. And if the performance stinks or the interpretation not up to par, it can really destroy the work. That’s funny you mentioned about having different versions of the Requiem. We have that, too, for many different works. Each conductor gives their own different interpretation or the choir and/or orchestra has a special sound that you can’t get with the others. Or the recording quality may not be great or perfect.

… Somewhere in the 20th century people decided that we had to at all costs stretch the bounds of what was considered music so that eventually “music” seemed to encompass all sound, no matter how discordant and unpleasant. I really cannot abide composers like Schoenberg. In general, ideas like writing music mathematically seem to be without soul and produce works which I dislike.

Yes! The “clouds of sound” idea. Experimentally, it was interesting, but I believe you are right - it ended up being too cold and lacking soul and beauty. It became too “academic” and “intellectual”. Those guys definitely knew what they were doing because if you hear some of their early works, they are actually very beautiful and full of ability. Some of Schoenberg’s early vocal works, for instance, are actually quite different and quite lovely compared to his “Pierrot lunaire”.

… I will say that Cage had an interesting idea. However, I think that it is given too much praise for what it is. And I certainly would never call it music.

Believe me, a lot of musicians don’t really consider Cage as someone they’d want to perform. When I was in college, my percussion major friends would always do something by him or Crumb because it was avante garde and “academic”. We all wanted to try to like that music and the compositions by other like-minded composers. But four years of sitting through student recitals with one or two works like that pretty much did me in. Made me realize when you make things too academic without any beauty, it just strips it of the soul and depresses your own.

I suspect that you are at least partially correct there. There is also a change in culture which was probably also a part of the genesis of the modern ideas of art music. We have seen in the last century an increasing idea of rebellion against tradition for its own sake. A push to be hip and trendy as if those things were a worthy end unto themselves. The value of the traditional ways is being lost.

Yes, I think you are right there as well.

 

[Sarabande]

Well, there is music still being composed, but it tends to have a small following. Modern composers such as Henryk Górecki and Arvo Pärt have been dedicated to religious compositions. I imagine it will be people like them who are remembered farther into the future while the Marty Hagen David Haas songs will be forgotten,

I totally forgot about Gorecki and Part - and we have Part’s “Litany” and “I Am the True Vine” cds.

 

[Arnobius]

I totally forgot about Gorecki and Part - and we have Part’s “Litany” and “I Am the True Vine” cds.

Yes. I didn’t have the Vine one but I did have Litany. I also enjoyed Te Deum and Passio.

 

[Sarabande]

Yes. I didn’t have the Vine one but I did have Litany. I also enjoyed Te Deum and Passio.

I’ll have to check them out. I know it isn’t a sacred piece, but I really enjoy Gorecki’s Symphony No. 3 - It really gets to your gut. We have a couple recordings of it. I’m not a fan of Dawn Upshaw, but she does a decent job with it.

 

[Arnobius]

I’ll have to check them out. I know it isn’t a sacred piece, but I really enjoy Gorecki’s Symphony No. 3 - It really gets to your gut. We have a couple recordings of it. I’m not a fan of Dawn Upshaw, but she does a decent job with it.

For Gorecki I have his religious works, but not that one.

 

[Sarabande]

When music is remembered, it is not always because it is considered great.

I have no doubt that 400 years from now, in music history classes, under the part of the class titled “The Catholic Church in the 20th/21st centuries”, “On Eagle’s Wings” and “Be Not Afraid” will be discussed. They are so widely sung and loved that they MUST be included in any discussion of the music of this era.

No one is saying they are good; but they will be remembered for their notriety.

That is an interesting take on this. I doubt that they will be remembered in a course on music in general, but they may be mentioned if there is ever a course on “The Catholic Church in the 20th/21st centuries”. They probably will discuss these pieces because they were and are so popular now. Compared to other eras, this is more of a low point in our sacred music heritage, at least in my opinion and only based on my knowledge as a musician and my own personal life experiences. But the low points need to be taught with the high points in order for us to learn something of what and what not to do for the future. I am finding, though, that these songs are being requested less and less at funerals. Sort of the same thing happening with “Mother At Your Feet is Kneeling”. That was a really schmarmy, sentimental piece of music from I think the early 20th century, if not earlier. It was apparently really popular for weddings and funerals. I’ve only had to sing it twice - both at funerals of very old ladies (I’m a late Gen Xer). My director had given me the piece to have just in case because in the 80s and 90s they were always getting requests for it during funerals - mainly little old, Catholic ladies who probably sung it or had it at their weddings. But I guess that generation has died out, so the song has practically died out. The same will probably happen with many of the current schmarmy hymns.

Actually, some of these hymns would be great for broadway songs or sentimental pop tunes, but not for mass.

 

[Petergee]

I am not a huge Marty Haugen fan, I think that perhaps one of his songs, “For You, O Lord, My Soul in Stillness Waits” (not sure if this is a Haas song, someone will correct me) might, just might, survive a few more years. It is written along the same vein as O Come, O Come Emmanuel, at least as far as the O antiphons are concerned. We Have Been Told might also survive. It just should have made a more direct reference to Jesus in the lyrics. Taize might survive, but it has taken some liberties with the wording so that might be a bit of a problem.

I asked you in the “Is this hymn heretical” thread, "Name one popular hymn written in the last 40 years which you do not find “deficient”?, and you directed me here for your answer to my question.
However you have pointed out what you regards as deficiencies, even in the hymns you have named in response to this OP’s question. And except for Taize the hymns you named are not “popular” either, at least I’ve never heard of them. And no I wasn’t talking about Spanish hymns.
So I take it your answer to my question is “I can’t name any”. It would have been more honest to simply say that.

And no, the Pope has certainly not condemned all hymns written after V2.

 

[Sarabande]

And except for Taize the hymns you named are not “popular” either, at least I’ve never heard of them.

Actually, “We Have Been Told” was extremely popular in our archdiocese. You couldn’t go a Sunday for a while there when I was a child and a teenager without it being sung at some parish mass. I’ve never been crazy about it, but congregations seemed to sing it.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Don’t forget, there were a lot of pieces written as recently as 200-300 years ago that are not used now, and I don’t mean they were replaced by modern stuff.

I mean that styles and tastes in the arts change. The pieces that have survived the centuries were the best of their class–hence they are called “classics.” You didn’t think they were the ONLY pieces written, did you?

 

[Sarabande]

Don’t forget, there were a lot of pieces written as recently as 200-300 years ago that are not used now, and I don’t mean they were replaced by modern stuff.

I mean that styles and tastes in the arts change. The pieces that have survived the centuries were the best of their class–hence they are called “classics.” You didn’t think they were the ONLY pieces written, did you?

I think many people realize this, at least on this thread. It was mentioned a few times on here already by a few people. I think that is why the question was raised by the OP. We have the “classics” from past centuries because they were universal, many were genius, many, if not all, were beautiful and appropriate for liturgical music and thus stood the test of time. So, we’re all here surmising and opining what could be considered equal to that of the “classics” from past centuries.

 

[Sarabande]

Sarabande: I have brought Harold Boatrite and his website to the attention of our choir director - unfortunately too late for this year.

Maybe next year.

 

[Dwyer]

Where is this era’s Mozart? This era’s Bach? Or Vivaldi? Or Beethoven? Or Handel

I don’t know if he is at the same level of Mozart or Beethoven, but there is a Polish composer named Henryk Gorecki who is world famous; his 3rd Symphony was the best selling work of classical (or arts) music from after 1950, and he wrote religious music which was played for the occassion of JPII’s vist to Poland.

I own the 3rd Symphony, but haven’t listened to it yet. It is supposed to have a spiritual quality to it; it is about a Polish mother mourning the death of her son who was killed in WWII (maybe it was WWI).

Obviously, Gorecki’s symphony struck a chord with many people, and millions of people own a copy of it.

There is also the Estonian composer Arvo Part; he writes religious choral music in I believe a minimalist style (like Phlip Glass, but, to my knowldege, his music is not off the wall like Glass’s), but he is either Greek, Estonian(?), or Russian Orthodox. He is a well known famous composer, but again, he probably isn’t a Mozart or Beethoven.

I also just rememberd Olivier Messiaen, very much an ardent Catholic, who was a French composer who lived during the WWII era, and was interned in some sort of German labor camp during the war.

He is very famous (he has passed away); I’m not too familiar with his music, but I believe he is a neo-classical composer (meaning he tried to imitate classical composers like Beethoven, Mozart, and Schubert, while adding new elements to that style of composition).

He wrote an opera about St. Francis, and I think his other famous work is about blackbirds which he studied for years (called magpies in Europe; not really a religious work, but has a spiritual quality I believe).

He is not so current, but was a 20th century composer.

But most modern “classical,” really “arts music” composers have composed really awful music; Karl Stockhausen wrote music that is bizarre; if you listen to it, you will notice immediately its influence on the Beatles and other rock music (in the 80’s, there was some German song that just had these two voices saying all sorts of nonesense words; one was a high-pitched, almost child- like voice; the other was a deep baritone, and the baritone guy would just sing: Da-Da-- Da–Da; that is what some of Stockhausen’s music is like, but even more odd; I’m definitely not a fan of it.)

Some of these composers saw themselves as reinventing music as they knew it (reinventing the wheel), since WWII had destroyed European civilization, they believed the old style of music didn’t speak to their society anymore.

Also, some composers no longer wanted to write music to please audiences’ tastes, and wanted to compose music just for the sake of composing whatever they wanted to compose.

 

[Sarabande]

I own the 3rd Symphony, but haven’t listened to it yet. It is supposed to have a spiritual quality to it; it is about a Polish mother mourning the death of her son who was killed in WWII (maybe it was WWI).

Open it up and listen to it!!! It is absolutely heart-wrenching. I got this from the inside cover of one of our recordings. The first movement text sung by a soprano solo is of a 15th Century Polish lament of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The second movement has the text of a message written on the wall of a Gestaop cell. The third movement is a Silesian folk song of a mother looking for her son killed in the Silesian uprising.

I also just rememberd Olivier Messiaen, very much an ardent Catholic…

Messiaen I believe is more known for his organ repertoire. I’ve heard of his St. Francis opera, but never actually listened to it.

I guess if we are going this far back into the 20th century, we should make mention of **Maurice Durufle (1902-1986). **He may have not been prolific, but practically every piece of music he composed was absolute genius and will be remembered for generations to come. His use of the chants within his music is so filled with spiritual beauty and pure genius. Sometimes when people do that, it sounds like what a Thomas Kincade painting looks like. It may have all the proper attributes of technique, training and knowledge, but the output is just not up to par - basically looks/sounds sweet or nice and can possible win over the general public, but it’s not deep art or true genius.

But Durufle - His Requiem is a tear from Heaven. The Pie Jesu tears you apart - singing it even tears it more so.

Also, some composers no longer wanted to write music to please audiences’ tastes, and wanted to compose music just for the sake of composing whatever they wanted to compose.

That is true up to a point. Beethoven was one of the first who composed not to appease the public and look what he produced. These guys fell too much in the academic and intellectualized side of composing. In this quest of experimenting and trying to prove their theories, they lost the soul and beauty of the music because of it.