What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[daisychain]

PR,
. For me, I think that the caterpillar to the butterfly imagery works very well. That in our present physical stage, we are essentially bound by physical laws and necessary constraints. Maybe you could say that we are born with training wheels. At some point, the training wheels come off, and we have no further need of them, but at the moment, we do.

. When the soul emerges from the body, which is then cast off, it is free of the pain and suffering of illness, etc. I do not see us requiring the training wheels of the mortal body anymore. I can’t say what spirit is, or the soul, except to say what it is not, i.e., the body itself. Even as the chick is not the egg from which it hatches - that sort of thing.
…
. While it is hard for us to imagine life without the body with which we naturally associate with ourselves, think of it in a gradual sense. If you lose a leg, does that mean your soul can’t walk? No, the leg is part of the body, not the soul.

.

I agree.

 

[Servant19]

Yes, he is a human being.

That’s exactly my point.

When one is a human being he is able to breathe. When he loses his ability to breathe, he is still human, yes?

Similarly…

When one is a human being he has a body and a soul. When he loses his body, he is still human, yes?

Yes that’s correct PR

But you’re saying that a human being is only body AND soul. I would agree with you but only on THIS earthly plane.

The reality is, we all die…your proposition naturally and logically implies we are no longer human after death…

 

[Servant19]

Are the bahai actively denying the truth of the words of Peter and Paul and the other apostolic writers for them not being Jesus? Do bahai not trust the apostles Jesus entrusted the church on earth to govern? To teach?

As has been already pointed out, dear friend, Paul most certainly was not Jesus, otherwise you would be calling yourself an Orthodox Paulian

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

All truly reliable information about Jesus comes from Baha’u’llah…

I certainly have little idea about the authenticity of the Bible.

Even letters purportedly written by Paul are debated in New Testament scholarship as to their authenticity, and they were supposedly straight from his pen, so to speak.

On the other hand, I see the seal of Baha’u’llah and I know it’s directly from God…isn’t that what we are all craving for? Reliable and authentic Word made flesh?

The question you should ask PR, is, (as would a person with correct objective analytical technique) how can you be certain that the Gospels today are exactly what was written by Matt, Mark, Luke and John, and secondly, how can you be certain that what was written by those guys was exactly what happened and was said by Jesus?

.

In regards to gospels we have universal attestation by the church throughout all history as to who wrote them. If as we are told by liberal scholars that these purely anonymous and we cannot know who wrote them, why has there been in different times, places and by different people a consistent tradition as to who wrote them? We have Iraneaus in Lyon france testifying as to who wrote them in against heretics.

Now if you want to dismiss the churches tradition, you should provide some good reasons. Go read some modern skeptical scholars with their arguments and come back.

 

[daisychain]

Hello daisychain

I think you are correct, we are

We considered ourselves 100% human still as souls with no body however. Death is not a burden or a result of original sin, it is the freedom of the soul, or the release of the butterfly, as daler put it in his beautiful caterpillar analogy.

The butterfly is free and has all the powers of the caterpillar and more, much much more

.

Hi Servant!
Yes! We are not our body. I believe our body is a vehicle, a manifestation of our soul, a tool, and in a way a “shell”…

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

As has been already pointed out, dear friend, Paul most certainly was not Jesus, otherwise you would be calling yourself an Orthodox Paulian

.

So you think Paul was wrong. Its no wonder you have such ideas about Jesus. You actually reject the apostolic deposit of faith. Paul was not alone, he was in communion with the apostles, the apostles jesus chose. Yet you would ignore that, you would ignore the authority he had to teach the churches, being the apostle to the gentiles. Its a shame you would reject saint Paul because he is not Jesus. How hypocrtiical that you accept Shogi effendi.

Do you reject Paul being called By jesus as described in the book of acts? Or was that an invention by the church to verify Paul? Is Paul the corrupter of Christianity? Are Bahai willing to submit to such beliefs?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Bahai reject the body, and say it is inferior to the spirit. Why don’t bahai commit suicide? This is a serious question as it can only lead to good. The bahai teach even in death everyone is continually going towards god, there is no ultimate damnation is only the possibility of continuing towards divinity, even for the damned it seems. What does it matter to have one sin agianst you as grave as suicide if it will be eventually over turned by eventually reaching God at a certain point as the believer?

 

[Servant19]

So you think Paul was wrong. Its no wonder you have such ideas about Jesus. You actually reject the apostolic deposit of faith. Paul was not alone, he was in communion with the apostles, the apostles jesus chose. Yet you would ignore that, you would ignore the authority he had to teach the churches, being the apostle to the gentiles. Its a shame you would reject saint Paul because he is not Jesus. How hypocrtiical that you accept Shogi effendi.

Do you reject Paul being called By jesus as described in the book of acts? Or was that an invention by the church to verify Paul? Is Paul the corrupter of Christianity? Are Bahai willing to submit to such beliefs?

Nope, I never said Paul was wrong.

I actually find tremendous value in Pauls letters.

One example of my admiration for him is the way in which he provides good argument in Galatians, on the relative Truths of the Torah in order to validate the necessity to break from the Law as Christians.

To Paul, religious truth is relative. He just didn’t know of anything beyond Jesus’s Revelation, and so assumed Jesus as Absolute Truth.

Had Baha’is not been told otherwise, there would be no doubt that Baha’u’llah was the embodiment of Absolute Truth. But we have matured now and can understand these things

 

[Servant19]

So you think Paul was wrong. Its no wonder you have such ideas about Jesus. You actually reject the apostolic deposit of faith. Paul was not alone, he was in communion with the apostles, the apostles jesus chose. Yet you would ignore that, you would ignore the authority he had to teach the churches, being the apostle to the gentiles. Its a shame you would reject saint Paul because he is not Jesus. How hypocrtiical that you accept Shogi effendi.

Do you reject Paul being called By jesus as described in the book of acts? Or was that an invention by the church to verify Paul? Is Paul the corrupter of Christianity? Are Bahai willing to submit to such beliefs?

Oh and by the way…so I can be fair, and I pray that one day you will understand…

Shoghi Effendi would reject HIMSELF when compared to Baha’u’llah, The Lord of the Age.

Having said that, I would willingly sacrifice my soul for Shoghi Effendi’s loved ones …

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Nope, I never said Paul was wrong.

I actually find tremendous value in Pauls letters.

One example of my admiration for him is the way in which he provides good argument in Galatians, on the relative Truths of the Torah in order to validate the necessity to break from the Law as Christians.

To Paul, religious truth is relative. He just didn’t know of anything beyond Jesus’s Revelation, and so assumed Jesus as Absolute Truth.

Had Baha’is not been told otherwise, there would be no doubt that Baha’u’llah was the embodiment of Absolute Truth. But we have matured now and can understand these things

Religious truth is relative? Thats not what Paul said at all. Thats what you bahai say, but Paul believed as the early church believed that Christ was the center of all salvation history, the powerful conclusion to the story of the people of israel in which we are now living in the epilogue. But you will ultimately deny Paul when truth comes to shove, when Paul says salvation is through Jesus Christ, when he says Jesus created the entire world, that sin entered the world through one woman and was saved by one man, you will deny him. You will say he was wrong.

Your trying desperately to deny the charge, but you will do that ultimately. But you are mistaken if you think Paul didn’t know anything beyond Jesus, he knew the Old testament more so than you or I know it, he knew Jesus who called to be the apostle to the gentiles. You, like the modern skeptic, think it was his imagination, that he wasn’t really called, that he made mistakes. Of course he was a sinner like the rest of us, but he did not err in his epistles.

But since you dismiss Paul so easily, I can only imagine you totally cast aside anything the book of hebrews says.

 

[Slaney]

Just wondering what it was that Jesus brought to humanity that was not already brought by Moses Himself?

What is the Catholic (and non-Catholic if anyone wishes to contribute) position on this?

Thanks and G-d bless!

Was asked this question 10 years ago, Jesus wasn’t the only person to be crucified ? yes, but He was the only person that could open the gates of Heaven, didn’t matter how many were murdered,before, only Jesus could save us !

 

[Servant19]

Religious truth is relative? Thats not what Paul said at all. Thats what you bahai say, but Paul believed as the early church believed that Christ was the center of all salvation history, the powerful conclusion to the story of the people of israel in which we are now living in the epilogue. But you will ultimately deny Paul when truth comes to shove, when Paul says salvation is through Jesus Christ, when he says Jesus created the entire world, that sin entered the world through one woman and was saved by one man, you will deny him. You will say he was wrong.

Your trying desperately to deny the charge, but you will do that ultimately. But you are mistaken if you think Paul didn’t know anything beyond Jesus, he knew the Old testament more so than you or I know it, he knew Jesus who called to be the apostle to the gentiles. You, like the modern skeptic, think it was his imagination, that he wasn’t really called, that he made mistakes. Of course he was a sinner like the rest of us, but he did not err in his epistles.

One word Iggy…

CIRCUMCISION
(for Paul’s sake, I hope you’re not circumcised )

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

One word Iggy…

CIRCUMCISION
(for Paul’s sake, I hope you’re not circumcised )

.

Ah, you want us Christians to be bound under the law do you? is that what Jesus came to do? Is apostles verdict in the council of Jeruselum not enough for you? is Peter’s vision not enough for you? Do you think Paul was the only one to say that the gentiles should remain as they are, uncircumcised? See this just convinces me more and more that you don’t actually think Paul was correct. you think he was mistaken along with the rest of the new testament that doesn’t have red lettering.

 

[Servant19]

Ah, you want us Christians to be bound under the law do you? is that what Jesus came to do? Is apostles verdict in the council of Jeruselum not enough for you? is Peter’s vision not enough for you? Do you think Paul was the only one to say that the gentiles should remain as they are, uncircumcised? See this just convinces me more and more that you don’t actually think Paul was correct. you think he was mistaken along with the rest of the new testament that doesn’t have red lettering.

I say, no, Iggy

GOOD ON YOU FOR EMERGING AWAY FROM THE LAW

The Law for one age is not applicable to the new heaven and new earth that is ushered in by a new Manifestation of God.

Jesus brought a new commandment and the old commandment was rightfully abandoned, indeed by Paul, it was the old Law that brought death.

Jesus brought life!!

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I say, no, Iggy

GOOD ON YOU FOR EMERGING AWAY FROM THE LAW

The Law for one age is not applicable to the new heaven and new earth that is ushered in by a new Manifestation of God.

Jesus brought a new commandment and the old commandment was rightfully abandoned, indeed by Paul, it was the old Law that brought death.

Jesus brought life!!

You think we are emerging from the law? The law is forever, it points us towards our sin and how we need God. You have not understood Jesus nor have understood the new testament.

Its shameful what you are saying. Do you think in a couple of thousand years a new manifestation will come along and say abortion is okay along with Homosexuality? Just curious, or should I abandon that part of the law?

 

[Servant19]

You think we are emerging from the law? The law is forever, it points us towards our sin and how we need God. You have not understood Jesus nor have understood the new testament.

Its shameful what you are saying. Do you think in a couple of thousand years a new manifestation will come along and say abortion is okay along with Homosexuality? Just curious, or should I abandon that part of the law?

You can continue this discussion here: (1000 posts are up)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=841252

 

[meltzerboy]

I say, no, Iggy

GOOD ON YOU FOR EMERGING AWAY FROM THE LAW

The Law for one age is not applicable to the new heaven and new earth that is ushered in by a new Manifestation of God.

Jesus brought a new commandment and the old commandment was rightfully abandoned, indeed by Paul, it was the old Law that brought death.

Jesus brought life!!

Judaism does not believe there is an Old Law and a New Law, but only a single Law, which is eternal and never to be replaced, being open to cultural variations within its text. That Law may be interpreted in somewhat different ways, however.

 

[tonyfish58]

@all the Bahai people,
I understand that for you it is hard to understand how Salvation could come from Christ, if you believe that the old Patriarchs are holy people and “should” have been saved already before.
The fact is that the Jewish Faith sentenced all living people to the Sheol (which according to Jewish is cut off from God) and the description of Jesus going to the Sheol to save the Patriarchs of old, does show that Jesus opened the Doors of Heavens for us.

But at least you all have to agree that Jesus (and His disciples) did make a significant part of their ministry that all peoples of the Earth be brought the “Good News”. Moses came to bring the Law to his people. Jesus brought Grace for the whole world.

God bless,
D.

God bless you to dskysmine - Baha’is do believe that Christ died for our Salvation 100%.

This is a big topic so we will leave it by saying that All the Prophets come with a specific mission, Christs was to show us how to gain Salvation and He died for that reason.

Regards Tony

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

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