What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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Yes, so as souls we are not human are we?

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Yes, we are still human.

Take this analogy, Servant.

In order to be human, we need to be breathing. Yes?

Unborn babies do not breathe. Yes?

So unborn babies are not human? No.

How then do we understand this?

We say: unborn babies are in preparation for breathing. They are still human.

Similarly, our souls in heaven are preparing for the resurrection of our bodies. They are still human however.
 
Fair enough.

So are you of the belief that when the NT records Peter as saying, for example, “Baptism now saves you” that this was inspired by God?
That’s a very specific verse PR, I don’t really know. Its authenticity is one question. The second question is that Peter was by no means Jesus.

When it comes to specific verses, I believe the meaning that was given through the Baha’i Writings, and if not mentioned therein, I make my own conclusions using the spirit behind what I know to be true as a Baha’i, but my interpretation carries no authority and is therefore a relative interpretation of that Biblical verse.

Hope that reads legibly 🙂

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Yes, we are still human.

Take this analogy, Servant.

In order to be human, we need to be breathing. Yes?
No…a non-breathing person is still a human being…
( ask your local paramedic those questions )

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I believe a human being is a soul which undergoes a physical experience attached mystically and mysteriously to a human body. That attachment occurs at conception…

It has nothing to do with heartbeat, breathing, nosebleeds, or banana eating fascinations, or a love for ugly animals 😉

Its the soul, without it we are dead. It gives consciousness…

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@all the Bahai people,
I understand that for you it is hard to understand how Salvation could come from Christ, if you believe that the old Patriarchs are holy people and “should” have been saved already before.
The fact is that the Jewish Faith sentenced all living people to the Sheol (which according to Jewish is cut off from God) and the description of Jesus going to the Sheol to save the Patriarchs of old, does show that Jesus opened the Doors of Heavens for us.

But at least you all have to agree that Jesus (and His disciples) did make a significant part of their ministry that all peoples of the Earth be brought the “Good News”. Moses came to bring the Law to his people. Jesus brought Grace for the whole world.

God bless,
D.
 
I believe the NT to be divinely inspired, but not the authentic Word of God.

A word for word recording of the Revelation of Jesus Christ would be an authentic record of the Word of God. The Bible is not that.

There are profound spiritual truths in the Bible…

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So the bible can be wrong when you disagree with it. No wonder the bahai are never convinced by the bible. But heres the thing, Jesus never left us a written work of his, he left us his apostles who left us a church and their writings. If you cannot trust the new testament’s divine inspiration to be free from error, why trust Jesus at all? The apostles knew Jesus better than you, you should submit to what they said.
 
Yes, we are still human.

Take this analogy, Servant.

In order to be human, we need to be breathing. Yes?

Unborn babies do not breathe. Yes?

So unborn babies are not human? No.

How then do we understand this?

We say: unborn babies are in preparation for breathing. They are still human.

Similarly, our souls in heaven are preparing for the resurrection of our bodies. They are still human however.
A person does not need to breathe to respire. Unborn babies do respire, but they don’t need to breathe to achieve this. The mother’s breathing is a good substitute.
 
Yes, we are still human.

Take this analogy, Servant.

In order to be human, we need to be breathing. Yes?

Unborn babies do not breathe. Yes?

So unborn babies are not human? No.

How then do we understand this?

We say: unborn babies are in preparation for breathing. They are still human.

Similarly, our souls in heaven are preparing for the resurrection of our bodies. They are still human however.
PR,
. For me, I think that the caterpillar to the butterfly imagery works very well. That in our present physical stage, we are essentially bound by physical laws and necessary constraints. Maybe you could say that we are born with training wheels. At some point, the training wheels come off, and we have no further need of them, but at the moment, we do.

. When the soul emerges from the body, which is then cast off, it is free of the pain and suffering of illness, etc. I do not see us requiring the training wheels of the mortal body anymore. I can’t say what spirit is, or the soul, except to say what it is not, i.e., the body itself. Even as the chick is not the egg from which it hatches - that sort of thing.

. In the fetal stage, the body has an umbilical cord and a placenta, from which it separates. Do you think that the soul retains these organs? No… Why would one have to think that the soul must retain the collection of organs contained in the post-fetal body?

. I know all these Adventist friends who think that death is a sort of suspended animation in which they all seem to think that until the physical body is raised (a literal interpretation from the Bible), they are “sleeping”, in a sense. It seems to me that they have no concept otherwise.

. While it is hard for us to imagine life without the body with which we naturally associate with ourselves, think of it in a gradual sense. If you lose a leg, does that mean your soul can’t walk? No, the leg is part of the body, not the soul.

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Lochias, a more loving response is assume other people as sincere until categorically proven otherwise.

For the record, I am being as sincere as I can and am not playing games 🙂
I can love a person and still assume that they will always try to twist words to make their argument look better. “Loving” is not equivalent to “letting you partake in falsehoods, whether intentionally or otherwise.”

As for you second statement, I’m sorry, but I flatly don’t believe you.
 
Nah…I don’t think Servant lied, friend. He was just duped into believing something. Something he read on the internet.
Maybe so. My trust has yet to be earned, however, whatever that may or may not be worth to him.
 
That’s a very specific verse PR, I don’t really know. Its authenticity is one question. The second question is that Peter was by no means Jesus.
Well, I assume that you believe that Jesus is divine, right?

How do you know this, except through the Bible (or through the Church)?

And if you’re not sure about the specific verses in the Bible which profess Jesus to be divine, how do you know he is?
 
No…a non-breathing person is still a human being…
( ask your local paramedic those questions )
Yes, he is a human being.

That’s exactly my point.

When one is a human being he is able to breathe. When he loses his ability to breathe, he is still human, yes?

Similarly…

When one is a human being he has a body and a soul. When he loses his body, he is still human, yes?
 
Well, I assume that you believe that Jesus is divine, right?

How do you know this, except through the Bible (or through the Church)?

And if you’re not sure about the specific verses in the Bible which profess Jesus to be divine, how do you know he is?
PR,
. It seems to me you’ve got it backwards. The Bible carries weight because it contains the verses of Jesus. If you can’t tell by the verses that Jesus is divine, of what use is the Bible?

. Consider a rose. Were it not for the beauty and the fragrance, what would it be?

. It isn’t the Bible that makes Jesus divine, my friend. Its that the beauty and fragrance of Jesus, as emanate from His words, are divine. And the Bible happens to contain them.

. It isn’t the frame which makes the picture beautiful. It could be any frame around the portrait. It isn’t about the frame, but the treasure it holds…

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I believe a human being is a soul which undergoes a physical experience attached mystically and mysteriously to a human body. That attachment occurs at conception…

It has nothing to do with heartbeat, breathing, nosebleeds, or banana eating fascinations, or a love for ugly animals 😉

Its the soul, without it we are dead. It gives consciousness…

.
No.

This makes the body a shell.

We Christians view the body as a wee bit more valuable. Infinitely more valuable, actually.

That’s what is so awesome about Christianity–we see beauty in God’s creation. Our bodies are a manifestation of the invisible nature of God. AMAAAAZZZIINNNNG!
 
PR,
. It seems to me you’ve got it backwards. The Bible carries weight because it contains the verses of Jesus. If you can’t tell by the verses that Jesus is divine, of what use is the Bible?
Exactly.

But how do you know that Jesus is divine? Where did you (or the people who told you he is divine) get this information originally?
 
Are the bahai actively denying the truth of the words of Peter and Paul and the other apostolic writers for them not being Jesus? Do bahai not trust the apostles Jesus entrusted the church on earth to govern? To teach?
 
Exactly.

But how do you know that Jesus is divine? Where did you (or the people who told you he is divine) get this information originally?
All truly reliable information about Jesus comes from Baha’u’llah…

I certainly have little idea about the authenticity of the Bible.

Even letters purportedly written by Paul are debated in New Testament scholarship as to their authenticity, and they were supposedly straight from his pen, so to speak.

On the other hand, I see the seal of Baha’u’llah and I know it’s directly from God…isn’t that what we are all craving for? Reliable and authentic Word made flesh?

The question you should ask PR, is, (as would a person with correct objective analytical technique) how can you be certain that the Gospels today are exactly what was written by Matt, Mark, Luke and John, and secondly, how can you be certain that what was written by those guys was exactly what happened and was said by Jesus?

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No.

This makes the body a shell.

We Christians view the body as a wee bit more valuable. Infinitely more valuable, actually.

That’s what is so awesome about Christianity–we see beauty in God’s creation. Our bodies are a manifestation of the invisible nature of God. AMAAAAZZZIINNNNG!
I think you are talking about the same thing.
The body is a “shell” …or the “temple” of our souls. Or a manifestation of God. Same thing.
 
I think you are talking about the same thing.
The body is a “shell” …or the “temple” of our souls. Or a manifestation of God. Same thing.
Hello daisychain 🙂

I think you are correct, we are 🙂

Baha’u’llah writes that we should consider ourselves 100% human still as souls with no body however. Death is not a burden or a result of original sin, it is the freedom of the soul, or the release of the butterfly, as daler put it in his beautiful caterpillar analogy.

The butterfly is free and has all the powers of the caterpillar and more, much much more 🙂

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