What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Servant19
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
So how can an account of a literal historical event also be symbolic/metaphorical?
You said that the garden of Eden narrative is literal, symbolic and metaphorical…
If you study the Torah, as do Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis and their students, with the aid of the Talmud and, in some cases, also the Kabbalah, you will find there are layers of interpretation to several passages: the plain text, which is literal, as well as more profound interpretations, which may be metaphorical, analogical, didactic, homiletic, midrashic, poetic and so on. One can find, for example, both a literal interpretation of an event and a didactic lesson derived from it. Or, apart from Biblical passages, poetry can be interpreted on more than one level at the same time.
 
Egg-zactly.

And the ONLY way you know what Jesus said is because the Catholic Church told you so.
I think given the option of:
  1. The Words of God were written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John a decade to 2 decades later and they were put together by Mr. A, Mr. B, Mr C, and Mr D, several decades later.
OR:
  1. The Words of God were written down by a scribe word for word at the time of revelation. This was later checked by the Person who revealed the Word and the Seal of this Person was placed on the document.
I would say that the chances of accuracy and authenticity requires little faith in option 2.

Just sayin… 🙂
 
I think C.S. Lewis sums my thoughts on this perfectly:

“You are a soul. You have a body”
Except CS Lewis never said that.

He was an orthodox Christian, and as such, would never diminish the importance of the body in favor of a soul being our essence.
Thought you weren’t here to play games, Servant? Why did you lie in this fashion?
 
Earthly paradise was supposed to be perfect. What did that entail?

Heaven is supposed to be perfect. Again, what does that entail?

For many, being in a perpetual state of bliss is paradise. It’s like being asleep. If there were no nightmares, sleep would be the ultimate of bliss. This is the purported nature of heaven where a person would be in a state of perpetual pleasure and never be bored, and never want anything in addition to what one has at the moment. And never enjoying food, drink, and sex would probably be part of the picture.

This is what salvation is all about. If the alternative is perpetual torment, then I would opt for perpetual static bliss. Since my spirit was probably enjoying this blissful state before I was born, I didn’t object to it then, and would probably want to ensure that I returned to it after my death on earth.
 
Thought you weren’t here to play games, Servant? Why did you lie in this fashion?
I actually read that as quoted from CSLewis in an article on the New York Times website and I (mistakenly) assumed that it was legitimate.

I should’ve not assumed anything…and I acknowledged my error

Lochias, a more loving response is assume other people as sincere until categorically proven otherwise.

For the record, I am being as sincere as I can and am not playing games 🙂
 
If you study the Torah, as do Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis and their students, with the aid of the Talmud and, in some cases, also the Kabbalah, you will find there are layers of interpretation to several passages: the plain text, which is literal, as well as more profound interpretations, which may be metaphorical, analogical, didactic, homiletic, midrashic, poetic and so on. One can find, for example, both a literal interpretation of an event and a didactic lesson derived from it. Or, apart from Biblical passages, poetry can be interpreted on more than one level at the same time.
Very good, and helpful to discussion, meltzer. In fact, every time we hold up a finger and say this means “one” cow or whatever, we cease to be literal. Rather, our very language is filled with symbols. The extension of conceptual understanding when limited to literalism denies the exponential growth involved in metaphorical storytelling.

How does one speak of “heaven” while constrained upon the earth. We need the ability to think outside the box of current experience. We have a mind capable of doing this, but only when metaphorical interpretation of encoded meaning is fully utilized. In this way only can we see around corners, beyond the horizons, and reach the Promised Land.

The Prophets of God are coming from where we have yet to go. They tell us things we have no way of knowing. That they employ means sufficient to do this is according to Their knowledge of reality which is beyond human learning and experience. That we have the capacity to comprehend Their meaning testifies to our responsibility to do just that. Otherwise, we could not be judged for our ignorance or incapacity, but only for our knowledge and capacity.

We cannot approach God and say: “But I did not know”, when in fact He told us, through His Prophets and Messengers…

.
 
There is a Story that Abdul’Baha told about Christ which is Good

One must see in every human being only that which is worthy of praise. When this is done, one can be a friend to the whole human race. If, however, we look at people from the standpoint of their faults, then being a friend to them is a formidable task.
It happened one day in the time of Christ—may the life of the world be a sacrifice unto Him—that He passed by the dead body of a dog, a carcass reeking, hideous, the limbs rotting away. One of those present said: ‘How foul its stench!’ And another said: ‘How sickening! How loathsome!’ To be brief, each one of them had something to add to the list.
But then Christ Himself spoke, and He told them: ‘Look at that dog’s teeth! How gleaming white!’
The Messiah’s sin-covering gaze did not for a moment dwell upon the repulsiveness of that carrion. The one element of that dead dog’s carcass which was not abomination was the teeth: and Jesus looked upon their brightness.

Thus is it incumbent upon us, when we direct our gaze toward other people, to see where they excel, not where they fail.
Praise be to God, thy goal is to promote the well-being of humankind and to help the souls to overcome their faults. This good intention will produce laudable results.

Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAB/sab-145.html

Regards Tony
Interesting. Thanks.
 
I think given the option of:
  1. The Words of God were written down by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John a decade to 2 decades later and they were put together by Mr. A, Mr. B, Mr C, and Mr D, several decades later.
OR:
  1. The Words of God were written down by a scribe word for word at the time of revelation. This was later checked by the Person who revealed the Word and the Seal of this Person was placed on the document.
I would say that the chances of accuracy and authenticity requires little faith in option 2.

Just sayin… 🙂
Regarding #2…what evidence do you have that Jesus checked the text of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John’s writings and gave it a thumbs up?
 
Thought you weren’t here to play games, Servant? Why did you lie in this fashion?
Nah…I don’t think Servant lied, friend. He was just duped into believing something. Something he read on the internet.
 
Regarding #2…what evidence do you have that Jesus checked the text of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John’s writings and gave it a thumbs up?
Number 2 was a reference to Baha’u’llah, not Jesus…

Jesus was not alive to check the work of the Gospels…

.
 
To my knowledge, HaSatan is regarded as a sentient being, but not an adversary of G-d’s. Rather, he is an angel sent by G-d and responsible for being humankind’s accuser and tempter in an effort to test our free will. He pushes us to the limit by testing our devotion to G-d. As is so often the case in Judaism, however, HaSatan takes on a double meaning. IOW, it is not central to Jewish teaching that one believe Satan is an entity; that is, one may also believe him to be our own evil inclination when it is abused instead of being exercised according to its normal aggressive function. In either case, the meaning of HaSatan differs from the Satan found in Christianity (as well as Islam, I believe), in which he is portrayed as the leader of the dark angels who defied G-d and revolted against Him. Although Christianity does not accord to Satan the omnipotence of G-d, he is still considered a persistent entity to be reckoned with in the struggle between good and evil. How and why the Jewish meaning of HaSatan changed in Christianity has often puzzled me.
Hi Meltzerboy,

I was hoping to shed a little light regarding your last sentence.

What you said in a previous post, #949 ‘’ If you study the Torah, as do Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis and their students, with the aid of the Talmud and, in some cases, also the Kabbalah, you will find there are layers of interpretation to several passages: the plain text, which is literal, as well as more profound interpretations, which may be metaphorical, analogical, didactic, homiletic, midrashic, poetic and so on. One can find, for example, both a literal interpretation of an event and a didactic lesson derived from it. Or, apart from Biblical passages, poetry can be interpreted on more than one level at the same time.’’

Christians would agree with this and the idea of Satan as a fallen angel would come from our interpretation of Isaiah 14:12-15. ‘How art thou fallen from heaven, O bright star, son of the morning…’ We would see these verses as having another layer of interpretation / a deeper meaning than only applying to the King of Babylon and have ascribed them to Satan as well.

We also see this in the Prophet Ezekiel speaking of the Prince of Tyre in chapter 28. Especially verses 11-19. Verses 13 and 17c seem to be speaking of someone other than the Prince of Tyre when they say 'In Eden, the garden of God, you were, and every precious stone was your covering. (we have all talked before that the Garden of Eden could just be symbolic, but that aside…). And verse 17c ‘I cast you to earth…’ But the whole chapter is worth a read.

We would get another revelation from the New Testament book of Revelation when Satan, the great dragon in Revelation 12:9, fell, it appears that he took a third of the heavenly host with him (a “third of the stars” were taken to earth with him by his tail, Revelation 12:4).

We would see this verse as a complement to Daniel 8:10 'And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them ’

I hope this has somewhat answered your question. I had originally intended this to be a short reply, but it kept growing and growing.

🙂
Simca
 
Nah…I don’t think Servant lied, friend. He was just duped into believing something. Something he read on the internet.
I acknowledged I got duped by the quote.

But my thoughts on the body incarnating our spirits stands to be the same…

There is no response to what condition humans are in when the body is shed after we die?

.
 
Number 2 was a reference to Baha’u’llah, not Jesus…

Jesus was not alive to check the work of the Gospels…
Ah. I see, then.

So what is your understanding of how the NT came to be? Do you not believe that the NT is the Word of God but rather the words of men written about God?
 
Ah. I see, then.

So what is your understanding of how the NT came to be? Do you not believe that the NT is the Word of God but rather the words of men written about God?
I believe the NT to be divinely inspired, but not the authentic Word of God.

A word for word recording of the Revelation of Jesus Christ would be an authentic record of the Word of God. The Bible is not that.

There are profound spiritual truths in the Bible…

.
 
No, not perfect. But in harmony and friendship with the Creator and His creation.
I think we have points of agreement here PR. :extrahappy:

Why would it not be perfect if its in harmony with God, though?
What’s your thinking there? 🙂

.
 
I believe the NT to be divinely inspired, but not the authentic Word of God.
Fair enough.

So are you of the belief that when the NT records Peter as saying, for example, “Baptism now saves you” that this was inspired by God?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top