What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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daler said:
PR,
. My understanding is that we are here to acquire perfections.
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Your fellow Bahai, Servant, has said something quite different from what you are saying here. He seems to think that Bahais believe that we are already perfect. :confused:
 
PRmerger said:
Your fellow Bahai, Servant, has said something quite different from what you are saying here. He seems to think that Bahais believe that we are already perfect. :confused:
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PR,
. I have noticed his perspective, but as words apply relatively, I agree with what he is saying in the sense that Bahaā€™is do not see humans as being born ā€œflawedā€ as in the concept of original sin staining us, and that without this stain we would be sinless.

. In a talk given by Abdul Baha in New York in 1912, He spoke of acquiring perfections:

. ā€œUntil man acquires perfections himself, he will not be able to teach perfections to others. Unless man attains life himself, he cannot convey life to others. Unless he finds light, he cannot reflect light. We must, therefore, endeavor ourselves to attain to the perfections of the world of humanity, lay hold of everlasting life and seek the divine spirit in order that we may thereby be enabled to confer life upon others, be enabled to breathe life into others.ā€

centenary.bahai.us/talk/acquire-perfections-teach-perfections-others

. Until the fruit tree acquire the perfections of the bounty of the soil, sun, and rain, it cannot give forth fruits. This does not mean that the orange seed was created imperfect. Rather, it was in a perfect state relative to its time and condition, with the purpose of acquiring further perfections, that it might go forth and multiply.

. Its purpose is to grow and provide harvests of oranges in abundance, yes?

. As to humans, what it takes to acquire perfections beyond the physical realm of supplying the needs of the body, is found in the spiritual realm, acquiring virtues from the Sun of Truth. We have need of these perfections also.

.
 
PRmerger said:
I donā€™t have a problem with that application of the word.

However, it does create a problem for Servant. If we are ā€œcompleteā€, that is, perfect, from our infancy, then that means we donā€™t need polish from God.

What say you, Servant?
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Iā€™ve already answered this question on several occasions PR :confused:
 
meltzerboy said:
G-d called His creation ā€œvery goodā€ instead of merely ā€œgoodā€ only after the evil inclination was added. Why is this the case? The answer, according to Judaism, is that the evil inclination in all humans means that now we have a choice between good and evil, a free will, something which was lacking in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey G-d. The creation of evil gives us that choice. It is a choice which the angels who consistently praise G-d do not have; only humans have this free will. This is why G-d loves us even more than His angels, and also why a more sinful person who repents may be beloved by G-d even more than a person who is holier to begin with.
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Do we have free will when we die? When we are in a spiritual condition, after death, is there free will?

If not, then free will is manifestly an attribute of the ā€œphysicalā€ aspect of human beings. There is a clear distinction between the attributes of the physical and the spiritual aspects of human beings
 
PRmerger said:
Yep. Very Catholic, this.

Indeed. And that is a perfect explication of Original Sin. šŸ‘

So we are not perfect now, but flawed.
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Further, PR, I would liken our journey to be one of ā€œswimmingā€. That is, we need to keep flapping those arms or else we will sink, right?

Now one could say that we have need of a lifeguard to help us when we begin to drown, or that we have need of a swimming instructor. Thus, in the spiritual journey we also have need of a swimming instructor who will rescue us when we fail to keep our head above water.

In each age, God has sent us an Instructor. Noah walked us into the kiddie pool, Abraham a little deeper when we were a foot taller, etc. Then Moses out a bit further, and Jesus, as we grew up. Now we are at the supreme precipice and ready for the high dive. We want a diving instructor to coach us and guide us in the present stage of our journey.

Here is essentially what Bahaā€™is say: That Noah could have instructed us with more than he did, but we were only ready for the kiddie pool, so that was the job God assigned to Him in accordance with our needs. Moses taught us when we were ready for deeper water, and what Jesus brought was greater still, because we had by then learned the lessons of Noah, Abraham, and Moses.

This is our understanding of the role of the Manifestations of God, as Divine Educators, giving us spiritual Instruction and knowledge suitable to our capacity in gradual proportions as we mature. If we drown in sin by going down instead of up, gulping water instead of air, they are there also to ā€œsaveā€ us, but also to educate us how to keep our spiritual heads above the choppy waters.

PR, I would greatly appreciate if you would indulge me just a little by considering a few words of Bahaā€™uā€™llah pertaining to the changing needs of humanity:

. "The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

. We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy."

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-106.html

. Kindly share your comments please.
. Thank you, and God bless

.
 
PRmerger said:
It is not a symbolic/metaphorical event.
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So how can an account of a literal historical event also be symbolic/metaphorical?
You said that the garden of Eden narrative is literal, symbolic and metaphoricalā€¦
 
PRmerger said:
A gazelle? Iā€™ll take it! šŸ˜‰
And, thank you for not asking if I was a serpent in a past lifeā€¦or this animal:

http://cdn.pouted.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/7c98ugly-animal-funny-ugly-animals.jpg

But to answer your question, I know these things from common sense. No animal is perfect walking on 3 legs when it was designed to walk on 4. Common sense.
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My goodness, what is that??? LOL

Anyway, my question to you is, how do you know an animal walking on 3 legs is not as a result of immoral human interference?
 
PRmerger said:
Yep. Very Catholic, this.

Indeed. And that is a perfect explication of Original Sin. šŸ‘

So we are not perfect now, but flawed.
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Except that you see us as the physical human being.

Bahaā€™is see us as the human being that resides in the Kingdom of Godā€¦
 
Servant19 said:
My goodness, what is that??? LOL
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Idk. I just googled ā€œugly animalsā€ and that one came up.
Anyway, my question to you is, how do you know an animal walking on 3 legs is not as a result of immoral human interference?
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I never said it couldnā€™t be a result of immoral human interference.

That doesnā€™t however mean that your position is correct in that the animal world is perfect. It clearly is not. A perfect world for an animal is NOT one in which it is killed by walking off a cliff, or by falling into a river and drowning.
 
PRmerger said:
It isnā€™t perfect to the animal that is running around on 3 legs, when he was made to have 4.

It isnā€™t perfect to the animal that starves to death.

It isnā€™t perfect to the animal that is minding his own business and a hawk comes and swoops it up for his dinner.

So, no, not really a perfect world for the animal kingdom.

So what is the Bahai answer to this: why didnā€™t God just create the world full of perfections, rather than creating it ā€œfull of imperfectionsā€?
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If living beings did not need food, air, and water to continue to live, then the world might be perfect. As it is, the world provides only limited supplies of food, air, and water to living beings, so it is imperfect. And if we look at where animal food comes from, it is derived from other living beings. In other words, eating and being eaten are part of the equation. Can this be perfection?

The world has good things and bad things. Gentle rain is mostly good, but violent storms can be destructive. Warmth is good, but severe cold is not. Volcanoes can be destructive. All these elements have no effect on spirits, but living beings are affected. Is this perfection or is it even approaching perfection?

If we considered the world as a location of spiritual beings who do not need food, air , and water, then the world might be considered perfect. And if we look at where animal food comes from, it is derived from other living beings.
 
nmgauss said:
If living beings did not need food, air, and water to continue to live, then the world might be perfect. As it is, the world provides only limited supplies of food, air, and water to living beings, so it is imperfect. And if we look at where animal food comes from, it is derived from other living beings. In other words, eating and being eaten are part of the equation. Can this be perfection?

The world has good things and bad things. Gentle rain is mostly good, but violent storms can be destructive. Warmth is good, but severe cold is not. Volcanoes can be destructive. All these elements have no effect on spirits, but living beings are affected. Is this perfection or is it even approaching perfection?

If we considered the world as a location of spiritual beings who do not need food, air , and water, then the world might be considered perfect. And if we look at where animal food comes from, it is derived from other living beings.
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From the perspective of the creatures which devour the carcass of the animal that ran off the cliff, the misfortune was perfect for their own hunger. The hurricane brings vast amounts of water far, far inland, causing massive growth. Severe cold kills off billions of bugs making for a better harvest. Volcanos nourish the soil richly.

What is the greater good of Godā€™s design? When we die, are we not then released from this painful stage of the body? Only when we enter the next world (heaven) may we see the infinite wisdom of the plan of God in setting up His creation of the natural world as it is.

.
 
PRmerger said:
Who is it then that lies and cheats and steals?
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A fox which does not lie, cheat, and steal does not survive. These qualities are actually ā€œvirtuesā€ for the fox, and many other animals.

At a certain level, people must be selfish, like the baby bird in the nest opening its mouth wider than its siblings. Without the ā€œme, meā€ instinct to survive as infants, we die.

However, as we grow a little older, we learn to share and have consideration of others, and also benefit mutually in a society which does the same. Thus, setting aside instinctual virtues of the purely animal nature really creates divine civilization in which these same actions are now called vices.

As the soul progresses from stage to stage, these relative actions change in value. The soul benefits where the body does not. If I starve that you might live, my body dies, but you love me for it and maybe pray for my soul, yes? šŸ˜‰

.
 
daler said:
From the perspective of the creatures which devour the carcass of the animal that ran off the cliff, the misfortune was perfect for their own hunger. The hurricane brings vast amounts of water far, far inland, causing massive growth. Severe cold kills off billions of bugs making for a better harvest. Volcanos nourish the soil richly.

What is the greater good of Godā€™s design? When we die, are we not then released from this painful stage of the body? Only when we enter the next world (heaven) may we see the infinite wisdom of the plan of God in setting up His creation of the natural world as it is.

.
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The world can easily work just fine without volcanoes, tornadoes, hurricanes, and ice covered expanses around the poles. In fact it would be closer to perfection without these elements.

The 10-acres of open space in my community experienced the death of a young deer because of starvation. The turkey vultures had a field day. This was bad for the deer but good for the vultures. This is perfection. Now if we could just get the world to provide year round water and warmth everywhere such as we find in the Amazon and eliminate the violent events, the world would be perfect. Isnā€™t the Amazon perfect?
 
Was the Garden of Eden supposed to be perfect? Was the serpent supposed to have been an original inhabitant of the Garden of Eden? Since this animal is a predator, the Garden was not safe for humans.

If Adam and Eve were true humans, they needed food. But when the wrong fruit was eaten, they became sinners. We donā€™t know what other food choices were available. If the Garden was perfect, Adam and Eve could have been permitted to eat anything that nourished them. The trouble is, the Bible says nothing about this.
 
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