Didn’t know about this view. I don’t agree with some of it, but it is interesting. I would say rather (as a Catholic) that God didn’t create an intentionally incomplete world, but put us over it as caretakers of what He created. Love can’t exist without free will, however, and our choice not to love Him or His creation is what results in the woes we have today.Judaism believes that G-d created everything including free will and even evil. It also believes that G-d intentionally created the world incomplete so that humans can participate in “repairing” it. This incomplete world is perfect because G-d has given us what we need to complete it despite our imperfections. In this sense, a so-called “perfect” or complete creation would in fact have been imperfect. Another way of looking at this is that we share with G-d in the creation of a better world.
Wow, I had no idea this was a Jewish belief. Have you ever considered that, because we were created as rational beings with free will (the image and likeness of God) that the evil comes from us, in that it is a free choice rather than something imposed?Judaism believes that G-d created everything including free will and even evil.
Was not the Garden perfect? It was only after the fall that sin and evil and imperfection and sickness and death entered into the world, and that was on account of the actions of man, not God. But our loving God immediately promised a Savior to restore our unity with God once again; a Savior who would destroy sin and death.It also believes that G-d intentionally created the world incomplete so that humans can participate in “repairing” it. This incomplete world is perfect because G-d has given us what we need to complete it despite our imperfections. In this sense, a so-called “perfect” or complete creation would in fact have been imperfect. Another way of looking at this is that we share with G-d in the creation of a better world.
No correction from me, Lochias. Only to add to that and the subsequent posts needs in my opinion take into consideration Time. It’s like asking, Why didn’t God railroad all creation to it’s final destinations, Heaven or Hell. You can’t include purgatory in that list because that takes time to complete. The simple observation of any human life is that it takes time to complete. Love also takes time to develop at the human level. Maybe God’s love is his way of preparing some of us for the final revelation of his mysteries in Heaven when Jesus comes again. Maybe for others this same way appears differently.Didn’t know about this view. I don’t agree with some of it, but it is interesting. I would say rather (as a Catholic) that God didn’t create an intentionally incomplete world, but put us over it as caretakers of what He created. Love can’t exist without free will, however, and our choice not to love Him or His creation is what results in the woes we have today.
Now, if I have that wrong from a Catholic perspective, I’m open to being corrected.
It’s all relative Lochias. Compared to the spiritual Kingdom, this world is totally imperfect. Our bodies are of this world of imperfections, prone to ailments etc, but physical ailments have no impact on our souls which is borne from the perfections of the Kingdom. Let me give you some quotes to consider:I don’t think the world is flawed, I think people are imperfect and often choose that which harms themselves others.
Flatly disagree, because I am here. God knew me before I was in the womb, and knows exactly what I need.
If you want to believe that whatever god you worship (because your descriptions make him sound very unlike the loving, merciful God that we have) made a world intentionally designed just to trip you up, or somehow did it on accident, that’s your call. I have no faith in such a god as that.
No, it’s not.It’s all relative Lochias.
That’s only your opinion, and not one based on anything logical. When you get around to creating worlds of your own, you’ll be qualified to judge.Compared to the spiritual Kingdom, this world is totally imperfect.
Oh, no no no. You’ve already stated that we were created perfectly; you can’t go back on what you said to save face now.Our bodies are of this world of imperfections, prone to ailments etc, but physical ailments have no impact on our souls which is borne from the perfections of the Kingdom.
Humanity giving in to temptation allowed Satan to gain power here.1 John 5:19 ESV
“We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”
Tribulation is not an evil.John 16:33 ESV
"I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”
Steve,So Servant, it would be helpful if you could define exactly what you mean by the term “Manifestation of God” before anyone can agree that we are talking about the same thing as a “Prophet”. God is divine. Prophets are not. We do not worship a prophet. We only worship God. So maybe that is the real question. Do you worship Baha’u’llah?
Thanks.
Steve
.Study these a bit, Steve, if you will, and we can discuss further, if you wish, as it relates to your question above.
Lol, save face???No, it’s not.
That’s only your opinion, and not one based on anything logical. When you get around to creating worlds of your own, you’ll be qualified to judge.
Oh, no no no. You’ve already stated that we were created perfectly; you can’t go back on what you said to save face now.
Humanity giving in to temptation allowed Satan to gain power here.
Tribulation is not an evil.
Just for you Lochias since I see you didn’t click on the link I gave PR:
"Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.
This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.
All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.
Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.
Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death."
reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-29.html
I don’t think there are many Muslims or Baha’is who would strongly disagree with this post meltzer.Judaism believes that G-d created everything including free will and even evil. It also believes that G-d intentionally created the world incomplete so that humans can participate in “repairing” it. This incomplete world is perfect because G-d has given us what we need to complete it despite our imperfections. In this sense, a so-called “perfect” or complete creation would in fact have been imperfect. Another way of looking at this is that we share with G-d in the creation of a better world.
The ultimate creation of God is to have created creatures which have the choice as to whether or not to obey His commandments.I don’t think there are many Muslims or Baha’is who would strongly disagree with this post meltzer.
Interesting to see how Christianity took this concept of a Satanic entity so literally.
Everything was created by God. Different degrees of perfection, as empirically evidenced by the visible universe. Humans have been given free will and can therefore choose to abide with or against God, good and evil are the outcomes of this free will
I read the post already.Lol, save face???
My friend I’m having a discussion with you…
Since you are evidently confused about this perspective I will post again my post #838
Satan’s biggest triumph has been convincing so many that he does not exist. Tread carefully, for the sake of your immortal soul.Interesting to see how Christianity took this concept of a Satanic entity so literally.
Everything was created by God. Different degrees of perfection, as empirically evidenced by
One might make a similar observation about a mirror-image kind of triumph but then one might end up being penalized by the powers-that-be.Satan’s biggest triumph has been convincing so many that he does not exist. Tread carefully, for the sake of your immortal soul.
What rebuttal are you looking for Lochias?I read the post already.
No rebuttal to my response, so I am forced to assume that you have no argument worth giving on the matter.
On rare occasions Baha’u’llah warns against Satanic influences which, as I understand it, arise from the lower nature on man, rather than an external, existent being. For example, in the Fire Tablet:I don’t think there are many Muslims or Baha’is who would strongly disagree with this post meltzer.
Interesting to see how Christianity took this concept of a Satanic entity so literally.
l
…sorry, have no idea what you’re trying to infer here.One might make a similar observation about a mirror-image kind of triumph but then one might end up being penalized by the powers-that-be.
Stop playing games.What rebuttal are you looking for Lochias?
I have no questions to ask you; you’ve been asking them, and they’ve all been rebutted in logical fashion.Ask me the question that you wish to be answered and I will answer it logically and precisely to be best of my knowledge…
Then man wasn’t created in perfect form, as you admit right here.There are two natures to a human being, the physical nature is prone to imperfections, the spiritual aspect is made in “the image and likeness of God”, and therefore perfect.
“God saw that it was good.” He didn’t make it that way, we did.The true, eternal nature of human beings is the spiritual nature, we shed the human nature after it has impacted on our spiritual nature through the initial journey it takes on this imperfect, material plane (earth), which, even according to the Bible is full of imperfections and sin.
No, you just haven’t received an answer that clicks with the cult that you choose to follow. Every answer you’ve received has been rational.I, however, have still not gotten a rational answer to the reasoning behind why God would wait so long to provide a Saviour for mankind?
I was responding to your suggestion that the triumph of Satan was to get people to believe he didn’t exist - well, one can reverse that train of thought.…sorry, have no idea what you’re trying to infer here.
I think C.S. Lewis sums my thoughts on this perfectly:…sorry, have no idea what you’re trying to infer here.
Stop playing games.
I have no questions to ask you; you’ve been asking them, and they’ve all been rebutted in logical fashion.
Then man wasn’t created in perfect form, as you admit right here.
“God saw that it was good.” He didn’t make it that way, we did.
No, you just haven’t received an answer that clicks with the cult that you choose to follow. Every answer you’ve received has been rational.
Except CS Lewis never said that.I think C.S. Lewis sums my thoughts on this perfectly:
“You are a soul. You have a body”
Interesting to see how Christianity took this concept of a Satanic entity so literally.
The word satan in Hebrew means adversary. There are many instances in The Old Testament where the word is used to mean just that: an adversary. An adversary would mean anyone who opposes us. As an example, the bible literally says in Numbers 22:22&23 - when you read it in Hebrew - regarding God’s opposition to Balaam, that God sent his angel as satan.
In Hebrew the word ‘HaSatan’ or ‘The Adversary’, which would indicate that he is an individual, is seen in the Old Testament Book of Job chapter one, verses six and seven where it says 'One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, ‘Whence do you come?’ Then Satan answered the Lord and said, ‘From roaming the earth and patrolling it.’ ‘’
(of course, we would believe that the serpent in The Garden of Eden was the actual person of Satan too.)
Christians get a clearer picture Satan as an individual in the New Testament where Jesus himself says that he saw Satan fall from Heaven (Luke 10:18). A literal personage. And Jesus also said that Satan roams the earth seeking someone to devour.
The word satan in Hebrew means adversary. There are many instances in The Old Testament where the word is used to mean just that: an adversary. An adversary would mean anyone who opposes us. As an example, the bible literally says in Numbers 22:22&23 - when you read it in Hebrew - regarding God’s opposition to Balaam, that God sent his angel as satan.Interesting to see how Christianity took this concept of a Satanic entity so literally.