What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[Servant19]

Except CS Lewis never said that.

He was an orthodox Christian, and as such, would never diminish the importance of the body in favor of a soul being our essence.

Ok good

I acknowledge this has not been ratified as a CS Lewis quote, my error

But we can talk about this for a while.

What is Jewish and Christian understanding of this fundamental?

Are we not human when we die?

 

[Servant19]

The word satan in Hebrew means adversary. There are many instances in The Old Testament where the word is used to mean just that: an adversary. An adversary would mean anyone who opposes us. As an example, the bible literally says in Numbers 22:22&23 - when you read it in Hebrew - regarding God’s opposition to Balaam, that God sent his angel as satan.

Dear Simca, you don’t find it strange that the Jewish Faith that initially talked about Satan, does not consider him a sentient being, yet Christianity does??

In Hebrew the word ‘HaSatan’ or ‘The Adversary’, which would indicate that he is an individual, is seen in the Old Testament Book of Job chapter one, verses six and seven where it says 'One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, ‘Whence do you come?’ Then Satan answered the Lord and said, ‘From roaming the earth and patrolling it.’ ‘’

He is not considered an individual in Judaism, he is a symbolic representation for the “evil inclination”…

Maybe meltzer or sister kaninchen can chip in with more insights here?

(of course, we would believe that the serpent in The Garden of Eden was the actual person of Satan too.)

I’m coming to the understanding that the Catholic Faith considers the garden of Eden incident as literal, and not a metaphorical or symbolic account… Is this correct?

Christians get a clearer picture Satan as an individual in the New Testament where Jesus himself says that he saw Satan fall from Heaven (Luke 10:18). A literal personage. And Jesus also said that Satan roams the earth seeking someone to devour.

Maybe Jesus said that Satan fell from heaven, because He was ratifying what the Jews have already asserted, namely that even evil was created by God Himself, and clarified by the Baha’i Faith in saying that evil is actually in reality “lack of good”

Is that a possible perspective that may be considered in interpreting and understanding Luke 10?

 

[PRmerger]

Ok good

I acknowledge this has not been ratified as a CS Lewis quote, my error

But we can talk about this for a while.

What is Jewish and Christian understanding of this fundamental?

Are we not human when we die?

The Christian understanding is that the body is good and makes visible the invisible–the spirit of God.

 

[PRmerger]

Dear Simca, you don’t find it strange that the Jewish Faith that initially talked about Satan, does not consider him a sentient being, yet Christianity does??

I don’t find it any stranger than the fact that the Jewish faith also does not consider Christ to be the Messiah.

I’m coming to the understanding that the Catholic Faith considers the garden of Eden incident as literal, and not a metaphorical or symbolic account… Is this correct?

No, this is not correct.

The Garden of Eden is a story of creation, regarding the what and the who, but not the how.

As such, it is literal, symbolic *and *metaphorical.

Maybe Jesus said that Satan fell from heaven, because He was ratifying what the Jews have already asserted, namely that even evil was created by God Himself, and clarified by the Baha’i Faith in saying that evil is actually in reality “lack of good”

Is that a possible perspective that may be considered in interpreting and understanding Luke 10?

Sure.

It is just not ONLY a "lack of good’.

 

[meltzerboy]

Dear Simca, you don’t find it strange that the Jewish Faith that initially talked about Satan, does not consider him a sentient being, yet Christianity does??

He is not considered an individual in Judaism, he is a symbolic representation for the “evil inclination”…

Maybe meltzer or sister kaninchen can chip in with more insights here?

I’m coming to the understanding that the Catholic Faith considers the garden of Eden incident as literal, and not a metaphorical or symbolic account… Is this correct?

Maybe Jesus said that Satan fell from heaven, because He was ratifying what the Jews have already asserted, namely that even evil was created by God Himself, and clarified by the Baha’i Faith in saying that evil is actually in reality “lack of good”

Is that a possible perspective that may be considered in interpreting and understanding Luke 10?

To my knowledge, HaSatan is regarded as a sentient being, but not an adversary of G-d’s. Rather, he is an angel sent by G-d and responsible for being humankind’s accuser and tempter in an effort to test our free will. He pushes us to the limit by testing our devotion to G-d. As is so often the case in Judaism, however, HaSatan takes on a double meaning. IOW, it is not central to Jewish teaching that one believe Satan is an entity; that is, one may also believe him to be our own evil inclination when it is abused instead of being exercised according to its normal aggressive function. In either case, the meaning of HaSatan differs from the Satan found in Christianity (as well as Islam, I believe), in which he is portrayed as the leader of the dark angels who defied G-d and revolted against Him. Although Christianity does not accord to Satan the omnipotence of G-d, he is still considered a persistent entity to be reckoned with in the struggle between good and evil. How and why the Jewish meaning of HaSatan changed in Christianity has often puzzled me.

 

[PRmerger]

To an animal, the world is perfect, it provides for all of the things it needs.

It isn’t perfect to the animal that is running around on 3 legs, when he was made to have 4.

It isn’t perfect to the animal that starves to death.

It isn’t perfect to the animal that is minding his own business and a hawk comes and swoops it up for his dinner.

So, no, not really a perfect world for the animal kingdom.

Humans are more than just animals. We are transcendent beings living in a non-transcendent plane of existence we call earth. For our needs the world is full of imperfections.

So what is the Bahai answer to this: why didn’t God just create the world full of perfections, rather than creating it “full of imperfections”?

 

[PRmerger]

Although Christianity does not accord to Satan the omnipotence of G-d, he is still considered a persistent entity to be reckoned with in the struggle between good and evil. How and why the Jewish meaning of HaSatan changed in Christianity has often puzzled me.

The reason for the change in meaning of Satan in Christianity (if there even was one, which is arguable, after reading your explication of the Jewish understanding of Satan) is because of the atonement.

Good triumphed over evil 2000 years ago. We are already starting from a point of victory, in the Christian world.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe so. But what does perfect mean? An example of something perfect?

One synonym is complere, meaning ‘complete’.

I don’t have a problem with that application of the word.

However, it does create a problem for Servant. If we are “complete”, that is, perfect, from our infancy, then that means we don’t need polish from God.

What say you, Servant?

 

[PRmerger]

There is a sharp division between all humans and G-d in Judaism, no matter how holy they are. Moses is no exception.

Yes, in Christianity as well. And, I believe in Islam, too.

 

[daler]

To my knowledge, HaSatan is regarded as a sentient being, but not an adversary of G-d’s. Rather, he is an angel sent by G-d and responsible for being humankind’s accuser and tempter in an effort to test our free will. He pushes us to the limit by testing our devotion to G-d. As is so often the case in Judaism, however, HaSatan takes on a double meaning. IOW, it is not central to Jewish teaching that one believe Satan is an entity; that is, one may also believe him to be our own evil inclination when it is abused instead of being exercised according to its normal aggressive function. In either case, the meaning of HaSatan differs from the Satan found in Christianity (as well as Islam, I believe), in which he is portrayed as the leader of the dark angels who defied G-d and revolted against Him. Although Christianity does not accord to Satan the omnipotence of G-d, he is still considered a persistent entity to be reckoned with in the struggle between good and evil. How and why the Jewish meaning of HaSatan changed in Christianity has often puzzled me.

. “Struggle” is the key word that jumps out at me in this statement. How can we “overcome” unless we struggle. Good cannot triumph except their be evil to succumb to. Hence, evil must exist in order for there to be good.

. As we personify good, as in angels, etc, these qualities must have an opposite and be personified in the opposite sense as well. Thus, Satan is the personification of evil in the same construct of the angels of our better nature.

. Our mind and imagination require stories and imagery to stretch our conscious understanding in beholding spiritual truths. We identify ourselves with actors on a stage, exemplified by the hero and anti-hero, which are extensions of the reality of which we ourselves are made. Thus, illustrated outside ourselves, we come to see what exists within ourselves, and enables us to make conscious decisions about our actions.

. To be good, or not to be good. That is the question. See that rotten bastard there, sonny? Do you want to be like him??? Or how about that wonderful soul over there, generous and kind…?

. So in the development of self these instruments of identity are necessary as role models of aspiration in how we see ourselves becoming actors on the stage of reality we are born into. We assume our roles accordingly, consciously, deliberately… knowing who “we” are by knowing who “they” are.

.

 

[meltzerboy]

Wow, I had no idea this was a Jewish belief. Have you ever considered that, because we were created as rational beings with free will (the image and likeness of God) that the evil comes from us, in that it is a free choice rather than something imposed?

As a Catholic, I believe that God is not capable of creating evil because it contradicts his own divine nature which is complete holiness. By creating beings with free will he certainly allowed evil as a possible choice, but he did not create it. In Him there is no darkness.

Also, I know that not all Jews believe the same thing. Is this an orthodox view?

Was not the Garden perfect? It was only after the fall that sin and evil and imperfection and sickness and death entered into the world, and that was on account of the actions of man, not God. But our loving God immediately promised a Savior to restore our unity with God once again; a Savior who would destroy sin and death.

We would agree that we are called to help repair the world, primarily by ridding our own lives of sin and evil. We would not agree that God’s intention was to create an imperfect world where evil dwelled. When he looked at his creation he said “It is good”, and even “very good”.

G-d called His creation “very good” instead of merely “good” only after the evil inclination was added. Why is this the case? The answer, according to Judaism, is that the evil inclination in all humans means that now we have a choice between good and evil, a free will, something which was lacking in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey G-d. The creation of evil gives us that choice. It is a choice which the angels who consistently praise G-d do not have; only humans have this free will. This is why G-d loves us even more than His angels, and also why a more sinful person who repents may be beloved by G-d even more than a person who is holier to begin with.

 

[daler]

It isn’t perfect to the animal that is running around on 3 legs, when he was made to have 4.

It isn’t perfect to the animal that starves to death.

It isn’t perfect to the animal that is minding his own business and a hawk comes and swoops it up for his dinner.

So, no, not really a perfect world for the animal kingdom.

So what is the Bahai answer to this: why didn’t God just create the world full of perfections, rather than creating it “full of imperfections”?

PR,
. My understanding is that we are here to acquire perfections. To fulfill our potential as what it is to be truly human, includes spiritual understanding as well as acts of service to others. Baha’is often define “work as worship”, that whatever we do is to be done to the best of our ability in service to others, and this is regarded as a form of worship.

. Of what use is a lawnmower which sits unused in the garage when there is plenty of grass to grow. The lawnmower only aspires to be a lawnmower until it actually gets out there and cuts the grass, right? We can aspire to be like Mother Theresa, but until we help the dying and serve their needs, it isn’t real.

. So to become “real” human beings, including fulfilling our spiritual capacity as such, we need to “act” like humans, with compassion and love. (Not merely yap about it on a forum, right? … (Hope that gets a laugh, as I’m lumping myself in with the rest of the lot as we sit here and debate how many angels can fit on the keyboard of a computer!

. But there is another aspect of fulfilling our spiritual capacity, and that is to acquire the knowledge of God. The “Word” is the conveyor of the knowledge of God, and to turn towards the “Manifestation of God” is another way of saying this, receiving His knowledge, which descends from the heaven of the Will of God through His Mighty Utterances. Hearing His Words, we obtain His knowledge.

. Thus, to be fully human, we must turn towards the Godhead, behave as He commands, and drink from the Fountainhead of His Holy Verses. Thus shall there blossom the fruits of man’s nobility in the garden of perfection and wisdom.

.

 

[Servant19]

The Christian understanding is that the body is good and makes visible the invisible–the spirit of God.

How does the Christian Faith understand the ability in dreams to make visible the invisible Spirit of God, where our physical eyes are not needed at all?

Visions?
Near death experiences where God is experienced?

 

[Servant19]

I don’t find it any stranger than the fact that the Jewish faith also does not consider Christ to be the Messiah.

…and yet you find it strange that Baha’u’llah (who you do not consider to be the Father) would say that the resurrection is a spiritual concept?

 

[daler]

G-d called His creation “very good” instead of merely “good” only after the evil inclination was added. Why is this the case? The answer, according to Judaism, is that the evil inclination in all humans means that now we have a choice between good and evil, a free will, something which was lacking in the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve made the choice to disobey G-d. The creation of evil gives us that choice. It is a choice which the angels who consistently praise G-d do not have; only humans have this free will. This is why G-d loves us even more than His angels, and also why a more sinful person who repents may be beloved by G-d even more than a person who is holier to begin with.

Very well stated…

.

 

[Servant19]

The Garden of Eden is a story of creation, regarding the what and the who, but not the how.

As such, it is literal, symbolic *and *metaphorical.

When I drink a cup of water, I “literally” drink it. How is that also a symbolic/metaphorical event?

It is just not ONLY a "lack of good’.

Ok, what else is it then?

 

[PRmerger]

When I drink a cup of water, I “literally” drink it. How is that also a symbolic/metaphorical event?

It is not a symbolic/metaphorical event.

Ok, what else is it then?

A sentient being(s).

 

[PRmerger]

…and yet you find it strange that Baha’u’llah (who you do not consider to be the Father) would say that the resurrection is a spiritual concept?

Yes. I do find it strange. Not only strange, but erroneous.

 

[Servant19]

It isn’t perfect to the animal that is running around on 3 legs, when he was made to have 4.

It isn’t perfect to the animal that starves to death.

It isn’t perfect to the animal that is minding his own business and a hawk comes and swoops it up for his dinner.

So, no, not really a perfect world for the animal kingdom.

How do you know all these things? A gazelle in a past life were we?

So what is the Bahai answer to this: why didn’t God just create the world full of perfections, rather than creating it “full of imperfections”?

God did create the world perfectly. Humans ruined everything by turning away from the exhortations of the Manifestation of God…

 

[PRmerger]

How does the Christian Faith understand the ability in dreams to make visible the invisible Spirit of God, where our physical eyes are not needed at all?

Visions?
Near death experiences where God is experienced?

The Catholic faith has no teaching on dreams, visions or near death experiences.