P
PRmerger
Guest
If we were perfect, Servant, we would never reject the MOG.
That’s common sense.
Clearly, we were made with a flaw in that we reject Him who is our Life.
What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?
- Status
That’s common sense.
Clearly, we were made with a flaw in that we reject Him who is our Life.
S
Servant19
Guest
No there is a flaw in the spiritual education we receive from a very young age
P
PRmerger
Guest
So those of us who are doing the education are not perfect. Which means, all of us, eh?
S
Servant19
Guest
Dear sister PR, I urge you to read this short passage TWICE, then ask any further questions, PLEASE
reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-29.html
meltzerboy
New member
Judaism does not believe we need to embrace Manifestations of G-d since we have the real thing! Neither does Judaism believe we are perfect since we are created with two basic inclinations, good and evil, both of which are necessary for life. It’s not a question of original sin. However, the evil inclination, if abused, can lead us astray. That’s what atonement in the form of prayer and seeking forgiveness from others is for. Perfection, no; but improvement in our behavior, yes.
S
Servant19
Guest
Thankyou Meltzer, may I ask, what is the “real thing”?
L
Lochias
Guest
Perfect creatures would teach perfectly.
We are not perfect.
L
Lochias
Guest
And yet, those people who turn away from God are perfect and have no evil in them.
Right.
Does this mean that it’s perfectly okay to ignore the Baha’ualla? Sure seems like it to me.
S
Servant19
Guest
Just for you Lochias since I see you didn’t click on the link I gave PR:
"Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.
This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.
All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.
Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.
Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death."
reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-29.html
"Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.
This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.
All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.
Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.
Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death."
reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-29.html
L
Lochias
Guest
I read it, and I think it’s baloney. It tries to make out sin and evil as some vague, nebulous thing that afflicts man for Reasons, with no explanation involved, and then also implicitly states that the world is inherently flawed, hence why sin is around at all.
Either way, your interpretation of God screwed up, big-time.
Either way, your interpretation of God screwed up, big-time.
E
eddie_too
Guest
bahaullah is not the first, nor i suspect will he be the last, human being to make up, preach and write verbose and virtually incoherent thoughts and concepts about reality.
jsut read the book of mormon and the d&c.
the bahai’s abandonment of reason and history is part and parcel of their belief system as i see it based on what they have written and what i have read.
jsut read the book of mormon and the d&c.
the bahai’s abandonment of reason and history is part and parcel of their belief system as i see it based on what they have written and what i have read.
meltzerboy
New member
G-d is the “real thing.” Judaism does not require Manifestations of G-d.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Something that is perfect cannot become imperfect.
If that were the case then you would always be in dread that God, The Perfect, might someday become imperfect.
Right.
Until he sins. Then he is not perfect.
And your paradigm is busted.
M
Michael19682
Guest
I don’t think that it is best to use the words ‘perfection’ and ‘imperfection’ when dicusssing people. If a person is truly evil, hell bent, as they say, and he chooses to believe that he can go permanently off of God’s monitors, wouldn’t you say that hell then is the perfect fit for them? God’s justice is perfect and therefore since all who judge are in turn judged perfectly, nothing a person can do is imperfect in the long run. A person is better seen as action verb and not a passive noun. No one is condemned for being too tall or too stout?
meltzerboy
New member
PRmerger, were Adam and Eve believed to be perfect before the fall according to Catholic teaching?
I think the idea of human perfection differs from ultimate perfection. In fact, every species has its own kind of perfection. But ultimate perfection can be found only in G-d.
P
PRmerger
Guest
No, I don’t think it is correct to articulate that A & E were perfect. How it is presented is that A & E were in an “original state of holiness and justice”.
From our Catechism: The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ. --374
True, dat.
M
Michael19682
Guest
What is the Latin equivalent of the English word “perfect”? PRmerger. I believe a reversion to the Church’s mother tongue is highly in order here if clarity and exactness is to be achieved.No, I don’t think it is correct to articulate that A & E were perfect. How it is presented is that A & E were in an “original state of holiness and justice”.
From our Catechism: The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ. --374
True, dat.
N
nmgauss
Guest
A species being perfect is a mental construct that has nothing to do with biological reality. Only ideas are perfect. Physical bodies are attempts at perfection. But since we don’t know what a perfect being would look like if we found one, trying to achieve perfection is like Sysiphus and his endless task. Each human has a unique genome. Somewhere among all those trillions of genomes there is probably a perfect one, but which one is it?
God is supposed to be perfect, but when an actual human with a genome and DNA is begotten by God, he/she automatically has the imperfections that are normal parts of being human. Since Mary was a normal human with imperfections, it stands to reason that her baby also had imperfections. I was unaware that God has DNA. If indeed the father of Jesus was God, where did he get the DNA normally contributed by a father? Would that necessarily involve fertilizing the egg in Mary’s womb with semen containing sperm?
P
PRmerger
Guest
I don’t think it’s necessary to go back to the Latin.
P
PRmerger
Guest
And that is why the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception is so appropriate for apologia for the divinity of Christ.
Without a perfect vessel it leaves room for arguments such as the above to declare: therefore Jesus was not perfect.
- Status