What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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GaryTaylor said:
Hi,

I’m with you here…

"I think if we were to really study reliable historical documentation of their lives, we would recognise that these Individuals were not the “average run of the day” person "

How does Jesus Christ and His resume do in comparison?
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Hi Gary,

All Baha’is have their favourite books to read. They all have validity.

I personally love “The Revelation of Baha’u’llah” by Adib Taherzadeh. I think it is a stupendous works. You can compare and contrast the lives of Jesus and Baha’u’llah there. Here’s a link to volume 1

peyman.info/cl/Baha’i/Others/ROB/V1/Cover.html
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Your doctrine of ressurection precludes those who are wicked from being ressurected? Daniel tells you of your error when he says the righteous and the unrighteous will be ressurected. Note that he speaks about a future event, it hasn’t happened yet and it is a collective event for everyone.
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Yes of course. We have no letter of negation in this theology. Everyone is resurrected, some will fall into the abyss, upon rejecting God, and others will be taken into communion with Him…

That’s a better worded exposition of the theology, thank you Ignatian 🙂
 
He brought himself. I’ve read the OT and nowhere in it do we have Jesus appearing to disciples. and at no time previous was a man born blind ever restored to sight and that miracle recorded. If Jesus did appear in the ages past surely someone would have seen him. If it had been impossible to cure a man born blind in ages past then there would potentially have been a person who could not have seen him unless cured by him (and that person could have been the one person to whom Jesus ‘appeared’) . but if he had sought out such a person and cured him, why is there no writing or word about it?

look at the answer Jesus gives in the chapter of John.

He says that the man was not born blind because of the sin of his parents or because of the man’s own sin, but so that the work of God might be made visible through him. how can anyone see another person’s sensory faculty of sight itself? Jesus brought a depth of mystery and practical reflection like no prophet before him. In terms of testifying, who has ever heard of a witness being accepted on ability to see through the eyes of another though blind, or from miles away while remote from the events.
 
The covenant is everlasting. This is normal for many people, but we could also ask: why did Gd so explicitly reapeat that in the Torah? Answer: nothing can come between us, and nothing means - nothing. So in times when we’re being put to test - which is a blessing actually - we can remember this.

The Torah is both, infinite in her wisdom, and complete. The “NT” as a book has no relevance to a Jew. We have clear instructions that fullfill us more or less depending on the individual, and anything added to the Torah is not for us.
It was Moses actually who was told in the desert from Gd how to pray for forgivenss and how to be forgiven transgressions, We don’t need JC for our transgressions to be forgiven and to have a share in the world to come.
 
Dear Jewish friends,

I think if we were to look back to the time when Jesus revealed Himself and His Divine mission to humanity, we would notice a period where Judaism was characterised by upheaval upon upheaval, upraising upon uprising, all in the name of the Law and God’s Kingdom. Jesus came and brought a level of spiritual maturity which heralded a glorious era where God’s Law could be established with the universal, and more powerful language of love, fellowship and brotherhood.

That is a BIG change in how God operates…

The inspired communities thus created were fundamentally of a different and more spiritually mature level than the Jewish ones they evolved from.

That is my humble perspective, and a component of what I believe Jesus brought to the world that Moses did not.

Having said that, the Dispensation of Moses was just as valid, just as godly, and just as salvific as the Messianic Dispensation 🙂
 
Servant19 said:
Dear Jewish friends,

I think if we were to look back to the time when Jesus revealed Himself and His Divine mission to humanity, we would notice a period where Judaism was characterised by upheaval upon upheaval, upraising upon uprising, all in the name of the Law and God’s Kingdom. Jesus came and brought a level of spiritual maturity which heralded a glorious era where God’s Law could be established with the universal, and more powerful language of love, fellowship and brotherhood.

That is a BIG change in how God operates…

The inspired communities thus created were fundamentally of a different and more spiritually mature level than the Jewish ones they evolved from.

That is my humble perspective, and a component of what I believe Jesus brought to the world that Moses did not.

Having said that, the Dispensation of Moses was just as valid, just as godly, and just as salvific as the Messianic Dispensation 🙂
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I have to say that I’ve not followed any of the Baha’i threads but do you all tend to get as gushing over, say, Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy?

I mean, do you have any easily identifiable criteria in judging mystics/visionaries/prophets etc that an outsider might appreciate, preferably without all the shiny language stuff?
 
Kaninchen said:
I have to say that I’ve not followed any of the Baha’i threads but do you all tend to get as gushing over, say, Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy?

I mean, do you have any easily identifiable criteria in judging mystics/visionaries/prophets etc that an outsider might appreciate, preferably without all the shiny language stuff?
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Hi sister Kaninchen 🙂

No we do not get as gushing over Joseph Smith etc.

The criterion is Baha’u’llah, The Lord of Hosts. Everything He has revealed is the Truth for this Wondrous Age.

To put it generally, the way Baha’is distinguish a true Prophet from others is first and foremost the magnificence of His Person and the life that they lead, the transformative power of His teachings and exemplary nature of the communities it brings forth…to put it very basically 🙂
 
Servant19 said:
Hi sister Kaninchen 🙂

No we do not get as gushing over Joseph Smith etc.

The criterion is Baha’u’llah, The Lord of Hosts. Everything He has revealed is the Truth for this Wondrous Age.

To put it generally, the way Baha’is distinguish a true Prophet from others is first and foremost the magnificence of His Person and the life that they lead, the transformative power of His teachings and exemplary nature of the communities it brings forth…to put it very basically 🙂
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So, who gets excluded? I mean the Mormons might claim that their religion is transformative and that their communities are exemplary - so why not Joseph Smith?
 
The miracles of the Lord are amazing because not only are they proof of God’s manifest power over nature, including the human psyche, but that his power is seamlessly integrated in a mysterious way incomparable, and unprecedented in the explanations of the OT. Jesus effectively and lovingly gives us the principle of interdependency. Just as in The Exodus of Moses, a story about the flight of the historical Jews out of their captivity in Eqypt, Jesus, through healing a man born blind, has given us a new independence from our human flesh, in which we are held captive, if and only if only we accept the offer only he can make, the grace of his Heavenly kingdom.
One can imagine the difficulty a blind man would have had keeping up with the Jews as they departed Egypt. Without interdependency, he would have been trampled under foot. Yet Jesus gives all men sight, and thus not only liberates from physical stumbling, but gives a morality that when found, brings us to heaven with a seamless transition into a body of light. Only the mysteries of the New Testament found enjoined with his person encountered in the sacraments can keep us both detached from the limiting confines of a human body that has no theology, yet interdependent on each other inasmuch as we are his presence in this world, the only vessel that can contain the spirit of God, however incompletely this is true in practical view of a life and world filled with suffering, disease, and arrogant assertion of human independence from god.
 
Servant19 said:
Hi sister Kaninchen 🙂

No we do not get as gushing over Joseph Smith etc.

The criterion is Baha’u’llah, The Lord of Hosts. Everything He has revealed is the Truth for this Wondrous Age.

To put it generally, the way Baha’is distinguish a true Prophet from others is first and foremost the magnificence of His Person and the life that they lead, the transformative power of His teachings and exemplary nature of the communities it brings forth…to put it very basically 🙂
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Bahauallah was definitely not as versatile as Joseph Smith - he had only three wives (Just kidding :). No offence meant - I don’t think there is anything wrong with having multiple wives)
 
Servant19 said:
Hi Lochias,

Imagine you are a cave explorer.

You have all the equipment you need, but the most important one is that brand new helmet with that brand new perfect light attached to it. It’s a beautiful lamp, bright, illuminating, it’s so good that your fellow cavers want to be near you whenever you go caving.

When you go on an expedition, the first thing you need to do is switch the lamp on. This is analogous to the spark of Faith. The light switch is flicked on and it shines.

Now, as you go through the cave, you walk through cobwebs, there’s dust, there’s dirt, as you climb it gets dripped on from the drips of water from the stalactites. It gets dirty.
This is life, the lamp is perfect. The cave is dirty. The lamp is analogous to your soul, the cave is the natural world we are exploring together.

The lamp slowly, as the expedition goes on, becomes less and less bright, loses it’s illumination and it’s use is lessened…

Now, imagine someone gives you a cleaning cloth. You can accept it or reject it, the choice is yours. If you accept it, you have the MEANS now by which you can clean the lamp and improve it’s lustre.

This is life, the lamp (soul) is perfect. Nature (the cave) has imperfections, which if allowed to cling onto the lamp (soul) will reduce its benefits and it’s purpose is lost.

This is the purpose of life.

None of this is even relevant unless you switch the light on first…
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…the ultimate purpose of life is to constantly clean your lamp? :confused: No, sorry, that’s just a means to an end; and further, you’re going to need good, quality cleaners from a respectable and established cleaner-store in order to do the job properly. The warranty is broken if we decide we know what’s best for our lamp and go about “fixing” it our own way.
Servant19 said:
Please note Lochias, I did say there are GRADES of good, just like there is GRADES of light, 10W, 20W, 30Watt lamps etc. there is “dark lamp” that you can but from your hardware store.
Mother Teresa was a 1000W lamp, Hitler was a 1W lamp, if you get the general gist of what I’m saying 🙂
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So mother Teresa was given a better lamp from birth, and Hitler never had a chance? 🤷
I understand what you are saying here, and with my apologies, I see your perspective of how I may have referred to the Popes words out of context, but please, try to understand that I am as sincere in my approach as I can possibly be. I CAN MAKE ERRORS 🙂
So avoiding slights on my character would be genuinely appreciated. 🙂
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God bless you
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It has nothing to do with slights on your character. It has everything to do with wanting to put an end to silly games and wishing to debate with actual, honest dialogue. You already know, as much as you’ve posted here on CAF, that the Church does not teach that everyone can go to Heaven “just because”, and I know the reasoning behind such has already been explained to you in the other threads more than once.

If you wish to avoid being called out on such gaffes, stop making them. 🤷
Servant19 said:
I’m pretty confident this is what the Jews were saying to the early Christians. They trusted God, that salvation is already given to them. God did not lie to them. He is and always is merciful.

Yet, all Christians knew that they were missing out on and rejecting the salvation offered them through Jesus Christ.

The same issues resurface from age to age.
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No. God fulfilled the old laws, and the issue will not resurface. We all have our resurrection ultimately through Jesus Christ and the Church that he started, and no other. Theology, history, tradition, Scripture, and reason all support this.
 
Servant19 said:
Just wondering what it was that Jesus brought to humanity that was not already brought by Moses Himself?

What is the Catholic (and non-Catholic if anyone wishes to contribute) position on this?

Thanks and G-d bless!
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WOW !!!
May Moses Bless you
 
Lochias said:
.

So mother Teresa was given a better lamp from birth, and Hitler never had a chance? 🤷

It has nothing to do with slights on your character. It has everything to do with wanting to put an end to silly games and wishing to debate with actual, honest dialogue. You already know, as much as you’ve posted here on CAF, that the Church does not teach that everyone can go to Heaven “just because”, and I know the reasoning behind such has already been explained to you in the other threads more than once.

If you wish to avoid being called out on such gaffes, stop making them. 🤷

.
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Lochias,
. I don’t think Servant is playing games with you, but quite honestly, he may have some difficulty keeping a lid on his enthusiasm and how he tries to express himself. Just my opinion. Maybe he misstates something here or there, but it is not an intentional thing. Rather, just part of the sorting out process.

. My (name removed by moderator)ut on the lamp thing is that there is a lamp in everyone’s heart and head, but it needs the wick trimmed now and then, and the lens polished to see things clearly. Its a fair analogy, if applied right.

. Hitler didn’t keep his wick trimmed very well. His ego got out of control, and his racism, nationalism, etc. He had intelligence, but misused it, having no heart.

. Mother Theresa on the other hand, was both intelligent and motivated by love of mankind. Compassion was her 1000 watt bulb.

. My own thoughts are that if you’re driving down the highway at night you need both your headlights turned on. The highway to heaven has some curves in the road, turns of temptation, and potholes to watch out for. We need light, and that light comes from the Lampposts God places along the road. These Lamps are the Prophets, Who Light the Way for us.

. What did Jesus bring that Moses didn’t? Well They didn’t live at the same time. Moses brought all the Light we needed when He appeared. Jesus, in His time, brought exactly as much Light as God wanted us to have at the time. The question then remains, do we have enough Light for the particular point in time and position on the road for this time we live in now?

. All of these Lamps get Their electricity from God. He controls the wattage. If we prefer to close our eyes to the Light God provides, whether due to pride or ignorance, its on us.

. God bless you, brother.

.
 
PRmerger said:
What do you believe was Jesus’ mission?
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I don’t know how Servant will respond but for Nazarene Jews, who believe Jesus to be the Messiah but not G-d, the mission was to explain the Law (Torah) more profoundly than any other rabbi had previously done and intensify Torah study and understanding. The ancient Nazarene Jews were called the Jewish Christians, and although they did not endure as a group for very long, some latter-day believers still exist.
 
meltzerboy said:
I don’t know how Servant will respond but for Nazarene Jews, who believe Jesus to be the Messiah but not G-d, the mission was to explain the Law (Torah) more profoundly than any other rabbi had previously done and intensify Torah study and understanding. The ancient Nazarene Jews were called the Jewish Christians, and although they did not endure as a group for very long, some latter-day believers still exist.
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Did they hear the teachings/explications of Jesus by word of mouth? For the Christian Scriptures were not yet in existence, right?
 
PRmerger said:
What do you believe was Jesus’ mission?
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I think, probably, Jesus’ main mission was to ‘bear the sins of many’, as is written in Isaiah 53:12. This verse, along with Isaiah 53:6 which says, The Lord has laid on him the Iniquity of us all. Both of these verses have been attributed by Messianic Jews and Christians to have found their fulfillment in Y’shua (Jesus).

And if this be the case, this is what Jesus would have brought to Christianity that Moses did not: rather Jesus himself was the sacrifice that takes our sins away, and the Laws of the Sacrifice, which were revealed by God to Moses, have their fulfillment in Messiah Y’Shua.

Respectfully,
Simca
 
Servant19 said:
Dear Jewish friends,

I think if we were to look back to the time when Jesus revealed Himself and His Divine mission to humanity, we would notice a period where Judaism was characterised by upheaval upon upheaval, upraising upon uprising, all in the name of the Law and God’s Kingdom. **Jesus came and brought a level of spiritual maturity which heralded a glorious era where God’s Law could be established with the universal, and more powerful language of love, fellowship and brotherhood.**That is a BIG change in how God operates…

The inspired communities thus created were fundamentally of a different and more spiritually mature level than the Jewish ones they evolved from.

That is my humble perspective, and a component of what I believe Jesus brought to the world that Moses did not.

Having said that, the Dispensation of Moses was just as valid, just as godly, and just as salvific as the Messianic Dispensation 🙂
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Reading this (especially in bold letters), it almost appears to me as if you wanted to say that before JC Gd’s law wasn’t established with “the language of love, fellowship and brotherhood.” That would be quite a statement, no?
 
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