meltzerboy
New member
Physical resurrection is one of the Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith composed by Maimonides. So yes, I do believe in it. However, I do not believe it is the sine qua non or the focus of the Jewish religion.
What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?
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meltzerboy
New member
Yet the main emphasis of the Law (Torah) is not life after death but understanding how to live one’s earthly life according to G-d’s will.
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PRmerger
Guest
Happy birthday! Hope you had a lovely cavity-free day!
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
What is the more perfect existence, life in the ressurection or life now.
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arthra
Guest
The Baha’i Writings recognise Moses as we’ve said as a Manifestation of God…
See the following:
And when His day was ended, there came the turn of Moses. Armed with the rod of celestial dominion, adorned with the white hand of divine knowledge, and proceeding from the Paran of the love of God, and wielding the serpent of power and everlasting majesty, He shone forth from the Sinai of light upon the world. He summoned all the peoples and kindreds of the earth to the kingdom of eternity, and invited them to partake of the fruit of the tree of faithfulness.
~ Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 10
I think Jesus also recognised in Moses a kindred “Spirit” in the Gospel of John 5: 45-47:
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
See the following:
And when His day was ended, there came the turn of Moses. Armed with the rod of celestial dominion, adorned with the white hand of divine knowledge, and proceeding from the Paran of the love of God, and wielding the serpent of power and everlasting majesty, He shone forth from the Sinai of light upon the world. He summoned all the peoples and kindreds of the earth to the kingdom of eternity, and invited them to partake of the fruit of the tree of faithfulness.
~ Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 10
I think Jesus also recognised in Moses a kindred “Spirit” in the Gospel of John 5: 45-47:
Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
John 5 neither says nor alludes anything relating to the idea that Moses and Jesus
are kindred “Spirit.” I feel that you are reading INTO the passage you’re own precon-
ceived beliefs.
meltzerboy
New member
That is an interesting perspective. However, you should be aware that Judaism does not consider Moses as such even though he is believed to be the greatest of the prophets. There is no manifestation of G-d, no avatar, neither Abraham, nor Moses, nor Jesus, nor Muhammad, nor the Messiah, nor the angels in heaven. G-d is unique and not to be compared in any way to His creation.
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
I recommend you check this out, contains many references suggesting that both
before and after Jesus, there were thoughts amongst Jews that God would come
himself to be our Savior: http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/JesusisGod.htm
I’ll agree with you on Abraham, Moses, Muhammad, Baha’ullah, etc. though.
meltzerboy
New member
Hebrew scholars have refuted all of these so-called “proof texts,” in which the text is either mistranslated, misinterpreted, or intentionally or inadvertently taken out of context. However, this is not the appropriate thread to elaborate upon the evidence provided. Thanks for the (partial) agreement.I recommend you check this out, contains many references suggesting that both
before and after Jesus, there were thoughts amongst Jews that God would come
himself to be our Savior: http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/JesusisGod.htm
I’ll agree with you on Abraham, Moses, Muhammad, Baha’ullah, etc. though.
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daler
Guest
meltzerboy,
. God is always above and beyond His creation, including what Baha’is term the “Manifestation of God”, in the sense that God does not incarnate His Essence in any human or non-human form at any time, is above all appearance or definition.
. Gary had also asked about the term Manifestation, as it is a term applicable to the Prophets of God who “manifest” the attributes of God to men, as a Mirror which reflects His Light. We have no other access to God but through His “Manifestations”, according to Baha’i belief.
. As to the topic, what Jesus brought in comparison to Moses is in one sense, a greater outpouring of that Light, even as you say, Moses was the “greatest of the prophets”, meaning that He brought a greater outpouring of that same Light than did Abraham or Noah, etc.
. What is that “Light” which the Prophets bring to men, other than what is revealed through their words and deeds? The Revelation of Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha’u’llah is, in each case, something which had not been in this world before. They “revealed” something to us that we do not otherwise have access to, as the sun reveals light to plants which have no other access to light. Hence the sun is the manifestation of physical light and energy. So too is the Manifestation of spiritual light and truth essential to mankind to be more than mere physical creatures.
. So at different periods of time throughout the day, from early dawn, to mid-morning, to high noon, the same sun reveals ever more intensely the same light, gradually letting the plants adjust, not just blasting them with full noon intensity all at once. It is a natural process as well that the Revelation of God comes to us proportionately according to our developing capacity to receive it over the long course of time and history.
.
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nmgauss
Guest
Actually in one version, God told Moses to speak to the rock. Instead, Moses struck the rock. By ignoring God’s command, God was angry and punished Moses. Is this what the Masoretic Text says?
The Masoretic Text (MT) is the authoritative Hebrew text of the Jewish Bible.
It was composed between the 7th and 10th centuries CE. The MT was primarily copied, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the 7th and 10th centuries CE. Though the consonants differ little from the text generally accepted in the early 2nd century (and also differ little from some Qumran texts that are even older), it has numerous differences of both greater and lesser significance when compared to (extant 4th century) manuscripts of the Septuagint, a Greek translation (made in the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE) of the Hebrew Scriptures that was in popular use in Egypt and Israel (and that is often quoted in the New Testament).
Since the Douay-Rheims Bible is an English translation of a Latin translation (Vulgate) that was done in the 4th Century CE, since it is the Roman Catholic Bible, it is not nearly as accurate as is commonly believed.
Which version of the Torah are you citing? Or are the details the same no matter which version of the Torah is being cited?
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daler
Guest
Gary,
. I noticed your question regarding the Bab. In most of the Writings He is supplicating God, but periodically God speaks through Him, or to Him, as in the following verse:
. “Verily I am God, not God is there but Me, and aught except Me is but My creation. Say, worship Me then, O ye, My creatures.
. I have called Thee (the Bab) into being, have nurtured Thee, protected Thee, loved Thee, and raised Thee up and have graciously chosen Thee to be the Manifestation of Mine Own Self, that Thou mayest recite My verses as ordained by Me, and may summon whomsoever I have created unto My Religion which is none other than this glorious and exalted Path.”
. Selections from the Writings of the Bab, page 204
. Hence, as in the Old Testament where occasionally God says, through His Prophets: “I am God”, He continues to do so through the Revelation of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
. When Moses brought down the Ten Commandments, they were the Tablets of God.
. Jesus said: “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”, etc. and words which had not been spoken by Moses, even as the Bab spoke words as yet unspoken by Jesus. This is called Progressive Revelation, and continues from Moses, to Jesus, to Muhammad, to the Bab, to Baha’u’llah, and He Who shall come after Him (in no less than a thousand years), as well as the next, and the next, over many many thousands of years to come.
. The sun always reappears each day, each year, each millennia, as will the succession of Manifestations as long as men live upon the earth. Each Revelator continues the work built upon the foundation previously laid, or the Revelation previously delivered, as did Jesus upon that of Moses, whom Jesus said: “for He wrote of Me”
.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
The details are inconsequential. What matters is that Moses still sinned, still disobeyed God and was punished by God for doing so.
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Servant19
Guest
Hi Gary, can you give me the post number that you are referencing here please?
God Bless us ALL
I don’t think I’ve ever said that Baha’u’llah is God…
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Servant19
Guest
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Lochias
Guest
But then you say here:
So, if there’s no evil and we were all already made perfect, what in the world did the Gentiles have to worry about in the first place?Yes, evil is an illusion. There is only grades of good.
There is only light. Darkness is lack of light. There is no orb in the sky producing darkness. And so it is with good and evil in the realm of the spirit
Your logic in this thread has more twists than a pretzel factory. :takeoff: First there can only be salvation through the “mouthpieces of God”, but then we were made perfect ANYway, so anything goes, really, and there’s no such thing as evil, 'cause we were made perfect, see, but we still have to work at making ourselves perfect-er…
Probably so, being the Pope. Salvation is a lot like anything else that’s there for the taking, really…we have to choose it for ourselves. Also, quoting the Pope out of context is yet ANOTHER form of intellectual dishonesty that is, sadly, becoming one of your hallmarks here.
“Genuinely trying” takes a lot into context. I can’t read the hearts of men to know why they choose how they do. I trust God to know that. However, I also trust God when the Church that he gave us teaches that, ultimately, salvation is through that Church. God does not lie. He is merciful, but he is also just.
You’re reading the law now.
Ignorance can’t be bliss once you’re no longer ignorant; it becomes a choice, for or against God.
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Servant19
Guest
Hi Lochias,
Imagine you are a cave explorer.
You have all the equipment you need, but the most important one is that brand new helmet with that brand new perfect light attached to it. It’s a beautiful lamp, bright, illuminating, it’s so good that your fellow cavers want to be near you whenever you go caving.
When you go on an expedition, the first thing you need to do is switch the lamp on. This is analogous to the spark of Faith. The light switch is flicked on and it shines.
Now, as you go through the cave, you walk through cobwebs, there’s dust, there’s dirt, as you climb it gets dripped on from the drips of water from the stalactites. It gets dirty.
This is life, the lamp is perfect. The cave is dirty. The lamp is analogous to your soul, the cave is the natural world we are exploring together.
The lamp slowly, as the expedition goes on, becomes less and less bright, loses it’s illumination and it’s use is lessened…
Now, imagine someone gives you a cleaning cloth. You can accept it or reject it, the choice is yours. If you accept it, you have the MEANS now by which you can clean the lamp and improve it’s lustre.
This is life, the lamp (soul) is perfect. Nature (the cave) has imperfections, which if allowed to cling onto the lamp (soul) will reduce its benefits and it’s purpose is lost.
This is the purpose of life.
None of this is even relevant unless you switch the light on first…
Imagine you are a cave explorer.
You have all the equipment you need, but the most important one is that brand new helmet with that brand new perfect light attached to it. It’s a beautiful lamp, bright, illuminating, it’s so good that your fellow cavers want to be near you whenever you go caving.
When you go on an expedition, the first thing you need to do is switch the lamp on. This is analogous to the spark of Faith. The light switch is flicked on and it shines.
Now, as you go through the cave, you walk through cobwebs, there’s dust, there’s dirt, as you climb it gets dripped on from the drips of water from the stalactites. It gets dirty.
This is life, the lamp is perfect. The cave is dirty. The lamp is analogous to your soul, the cave is the natural world we are exploring together.
The lamp slowly, as the expedition goes on, becomes less and less bright, loses it’s illumination and it’s use is lessened…
Now, imagine someone gives you a cleaning cloth. You can accept it or reject it, the choice is yours. If you accept it, you have the MEANS now by which you can clean the lamp and improve it’s lustre.
This is life, the lamp (soul) is perfect. Nature (the cave) has imperfections, which if allowed to cling onto the lamp (soul) will reduce its benefits and it’s purpose is lost.
This is the purpose of life.
None of this is even relevant unless you switch the light on first…
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Servant19
Guest
Let me put a caveat on the above analogy. I came up with it pretty quickly. Please ask questions before attacking me about how I’m being dishonest etc. I’m trying to explain the best way I can
It may need small addendums, explanations, clarifications etc to convey the true meaning behind this theological trut, so I beg for your patience and understanding. Thank you
It may need small addendums, explanations, clarifications etc to convey the true meaning behind this theological trut, so I beg for your patience and understanding. Thank you
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Servant19
Guest
Please note Lochias, I did say there are GRADES of good, just like there is GRADES of light, 10W, 20W, 30Watt lamps etc. there is “dark lamp” that you can but from your hardware store.
Mother Teresa was a 1000W lamp, Hitler was a 1W lamp, if you get the general gist of what I’m saying
I understand what you are saying here, and with my apologies, I see your perspective of how I may have referred to the Popes words out of context, but please, try to understand that I am as sincere in my approach as I can possibly be. I CAN MAKE ERRORS
So avoiding slights on my character would be genuinely appreciated.
God bless you
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Servant19
Guest
I’m pretty confident this is what the Jews were saying to the early Christians. They trusted God, that salvation is already given to them. God did not lie to them. He is and always is merciful.
Yet, all Christians knew that they were missing out on and rejecting the salvation offered them through Jesus Christ.
The same issues resurface from age to age.
As Lord Krishna revealed all those years ago.
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