What Did Jesus Write in the Sand?

[kimmielittle]

Hiyas Ben,

You ‘present’ yourself as knowing both court and logic.

Because you aren’t a “witness” to actual events. Your testimony won’t be heard. It is “hear-say” [speculation]…ONLY.

You seem to… fail to understand that your subjective speculations are nothing more than ‘hear-say’. Your speculations would not be heard. NOT allowed.

To be allowed to be a “witness” …you would have to ‘present’ yourself as an “expert” in a "particular field of expertise’. You have failed to do so.

Then the ‘court’ would accept or deny …your testimony to be ‘presented’ for evaluation before the ‘court’.

THIS doesn’t guarantee what evidence you make as an ‘expert witness’ will be accepted…You will have to ‘prove’ - ‘beyond a shadow of doubt’ …and STILL the court/jury can reject… ALL or ANY part of what you present.

Because until ‘accepted’ as ‘fact’…by the ‘court’ - ‘jury’…‘expert witness’…Or not…it is still ALL ‘subjective speculation’ on your part.

I have already ‘proved’…in another post thread of yours - and you accepted my ‘proof’ - that you make very erroneous statements which you presented as ‘fact’…thus, ‘credibility’ was lost.

 

[twb1621]

I really wasn’t sure who you were speaking to but since I was the one asking questions I thought you meant me. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

no problem, the quote thing gets messed up some times…

 

[kimmielittle]

Lee Strobels “Case For Christ” Refutes just about every argument Mr. Masadas “Case Against Christ” trys to make.
Most of Mr. Masadas comments come out of an OLD Discredited book written back in the 70’s called “Holy Ghost, Holy Grail”. Maybe they stole these arguments from someone else? I don’t know?

For Example, Both Mention Jesus having Died only after a few hours on the Cross. I don’t have time to go over ALL of Mr. Masadas Tired Old arguments. Most are Ridiculous, anyway.

As Lee Strobels book points out. The beating Jesus received with the special whip the Roman Soldiers used tore the flesh off the skin and caused him to lose massive amounts of Blood. Mel Gibson’s Passion of Christ Movie was historically acurate.

Proof? The Loss of Blood from the beating and whipping caused Jesus to go into a Hypovolemic state causing serous fluid to surround the heart. Jesus hardly had the strength to carry his Cross due to the beating and loss of Blood. When Jesus “Thirst” on the Cross, it was not only to fullfill prophecy, but Also due to his Hypovqlemic State. (God Thinks of everything) When the Roman soldier threw his spear into Jesus’s side piercing his Heart, the Blood with water spilled out as witnessed by the Apostle John, prooving that he was in fact an eye witness to the event. For centuries Non-believers questioned John’s account of “Water” flowing from the heart and the side of Christ. Modern medicine tells us this is serous fluid that would have formed from a severe loss of blood. A first century man would have called it Water, since it is a clear fluid. With the Beating, loss of blood, and being Nailed to a Cross, it’s surprising Jesus lasted as Long as he did. I hope I explained it as well as Mr. Strobel did in his book.
SO!
Jesus was IN-Fact Dead. John was INDEED an eyewitness. When a Roman Soldier Killed you, much like a United States Marine, You Are DEAD.

Also, Strobel points out the fact that EVEN if Jesus was Alive and the Ressurection was a fake. Who in their Right mind would Follow him in the NEW Conemant? The Early Christians gave up everything, THOUSANDS of years of Their Old Covenant, to follow Christ in the New.
All but One of the Original Apostles were Martyred in Horrible ways. Never Once did they deny the Death and Ressurection of Christ. Many other Christians were Murdered for their belief in Christ Jesus. All could Not have been Madmen or Halucinating when they saw the Risen Lord.
" People will die for a great cause, but the Apostles Great cause Died on Good Friday. People will die for a lie they think is the Truth. No One DIES for a LIE that they KNOW is a LIE."
Josh McDowell(I think Josh Might have stole this quote, but he’s who I heard it from)

I Hope Mr. Masada arguments, which are the Same Tired old Arguments that have been refuted for YEARS, are NOT what Jewish Rabbi’s are teaching their Congregation? If so, this LACK of Honesty is Disturbing.

Nice research, good reference ( Medical )

 

[jcrichton]

You are most welcome.
The fastest way to a PhD, is to ‘publish’ your thesis.
After that they need research funds. Which leads to the need of publishing a book.
What sells?
Conspiracy theories…i.e…The Kennedy Conspiracy Theory.
Theories are - subjective conjecture only. Based on - “what if’s”.

If I publish 800,000 books and no one disputes them…can I not say, 'It’s ‘commonly accepted’"? Albeit: I have failed to exhaust ALL sources. This is the statement Master Oxford, IMHO, has made, without ALL sources…including Catholic teachings.

ALSO the word “Forgery”, in scientific terminology, doesn’t have the same implications/connotations, normally associated to it.

How do you forge a copy of a copy? The manuscripts available for our studies, at this time, are just that. Facsimiles. Just as much so as our Bibles today are.
We clearly, don’t have the originals.
We can clearly see the need to copy, in order to have more available to the growing Church.
I wouldn’t release my Master Edition, but I would allow it to be copied.

Inspired accounts, yes.
Defended by Church…without a doubt.
I can accept.

Ps: just call me kimmie, if you wish.

Hi, Kimmie!

…again I thank you…

I did not consider the points you’ve raised–they are very valid since we know that for millennia charlatans have done exactly that… they make fantastic claims and when proven wrong they simply go on to another claim… sadly, much of that is done today by the “science/history” channels; one of the latest claims was “Jesus’ and Mary Magdalene’s burial plot discovered!” (or something to that effect)… much like the super dupper collider, set up cost was over 8 billion dollars, that was purported to provide the final answer as to the “emergence of life…” their findings continue to be up in the air–they quickly moved on to the next “truth about…” never even looking back or acknowledging their error in over estimating their abilities and/or discoveries…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you.

I’m a kid, we get bombarded with pages that try to “present themselves”, i.e Church of Scient…, cults, porn, even Humas supporters ( A page I went to, after the attacks in India, for reference - ‘presented’ as a news source] ), as unbiased reference sources. ALL seem innocent on the surface.

It’s dangerous enough out there.
Kids, don’t need hate.

BTW: I got this link
adultera.awardspace.com/TEXT/MSS-top10.html

from the wikipedia.org link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pericope_Adulter...it’s the third reference down at the bottom of that article (well the face page). For the Record: I think wikipedia did a fair representation. BUT only if we read it’s entire context and then follow it out.

Hi, Kimmie!

I commend you for your efforts in searching out the Truth (St. John 14:6); remember that the Church is the Pillar and Support of the truth!

I cuncur with you… we do not need hate in our lives; sadly, that is a currency that Satan has learned to use as he assaults the Church and people at large… remember too that “greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.” Get your strength from God’s Holy Spirit and He will keep you in the Path that leads to Salvation.

I’ve opened up the link… will go back to it soon and I’ll get back to you (the introduction seemed very revealing as it states that the material does not pretend to prove or disprove the issue).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

---

It’s not that hard to know what Jesus wrote on the sand. We need only to think about what he said to the woman
afterwards.

When Jesus finished writing he asked the woman:
“Where are your accusers, has no man condemned you?” She answered and said, “No man, Lord.” Then Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” (John 8:8-11) Why couldn’t
the men condemn the woman? Because they were equally sinners. Why couldn’t Jesus either as he stated himself he wouldn’t? Obviously for the same reason: That he was also a sinner. Therefore, that’s what he was writing on the sand: That everyone alive on earth was a sinner, including himself. See? Not so hard.

Ben: <*)))><

Ben, I do not mean to be uncharitable but why the obfuscation? If you are not happy with Catholics why seek them out?

May Yahweh God fill your heart and mind with His Love (Jesus) and Glory (the Holy Spirit)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

---

Hi Plain_me. The pleasure will be all mine. Here’s my email address: masada52504@yahoo.com. I’ll give
you the first shot at choosing the subject. If you lack inspiration,
how about starting with “What is the Truth?”

Believe me, I have no intention to be a troublemaker. I am just using the Logic that faith won’t allow you guys to.

Regarding Daniel 9:24-27, whose prophecy you are referring to without quoting it, it’s a Jewish prophecy that must be interpreted according to Judaism and not Christianity. Any Christian interpretation of that prophetic frame of Daniel is prone to fail from the onset. It has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus, who never claimed to be the Messiah. If you wanna try it, be my guest.

Regarding looking at God and live, anyone can look at God and live, including you and me. In Isaiah 6, Isaiah was indeed looking at God and lived. I am going to let you know why: In a vision or in dreams anyone can look at God and live. The whole book of Isaiah is a vision he had about Judah and Jerusalem. Please, read Isaiah 1:1. That vision seemed to Isaiah so real that he was afraid to die because he supposed his eyes had seen the Lord.
That’s the only way the Almighty can appear to humans: In a vision or dreams. Why not as we see each other? Because God is incorporeal. Naturally invisible to human eyes.

Ben: <*)))><

Ben, could you define Faith/Belief?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

---

But of course you have to disagree that Jesus was a sinner. I would too if I was a Christian.

You didn’t have to go through the quotation of Ezekiel above, because that case of the woman caught in adultery would have never been processessed that way. The guy who wrote that gospel had zero knowledge of how cases of that character were dealt with in Israel. It must have been inserted in there as a parabolic interpolation with the purpose to enhance Jesus’ credibility as the one. So, we can elaborate on the facts about Jesus but parabolically.

Ben: <*)))><

Again, not to be unkind… so why are you so intent on being amongst people who do not share your views?

May Yeshua’s Holy Spirit grant you peace!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hiyas LilyM

Are you sure ‘Ben is Jewish’].?
I ask because he certainly has left a bad taste in mouths, toward the Jewish Community, IMHO, almost purposefully.

Hi, Kimmie!

…have not read Ben’s profile… yet, from his demeanor I believe that he is not only Jew but he is a hater–he feels that he must augment his limited awareness of Yahweh God through the persecution of Christ’s Church (you can find him in Apocalyse 12:17).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Well, innocent until proven guilty and all that. On an internet forum like this there’s usually no choice but to take each other at our word. Although I do wonder about the fishy (very Christian) symbol in his signature.

Care to enlighten us, Ben?

Hi, LilyM!

…he may have a pecular definition for it… but remember there are fish that are predators… he could have been thinking of a piranha when he adopted the signature…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

---

Hi Kimmielittle, care to enlighten me on how I have left a bad taste in mouths toward the Jewish Community? I am not sure what you are talking about. You must be referring to hyphenated “Jews” who have been trapped by the things of Christianity. Those are the ones I have been looking for with the purpose to restore them to the faith of Jesus, which was Judaism.

Ben:

I think that you should try some Jewish sites… perhaps Jews for Jesus and the like… here you will find only Catholics and Christians (yeah even those born in Israel).

You should also learn a little more about Yeshua before you continue to take Him on… He is your God as well as mine–even if you chose to deny Him!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

---

You say: “And how about all the People that saw him come back from the dead?” Would you be so kind as to mention to me a single one who saw Jesus come back from the dead? Even the “angel” of Matthew, when he came down from heaven and removed the stone, didn’t see anything. The tomb was empty. What did he tell the women who had come to see the tomb? “He is not here.” (Mat. 28:6)

The only knowledge that all those people you are talking about had was that someone had raised Jesus from that tomb. And if you ask me, it happened during the night of Friday to Saturday when there was no one at the tomb area and everything was deserted. I wonder who could have raised Jesus from that tomb. Have you ever thought about Joseph of Arimathea? Think it through!

Ben:

Your reason is wonderful… assaulting Christians with innuendos–hey, I am about to change my religion… wait… wait… sorry, Ben… it’s just never going to happen; Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac compels me to Listen to His Only Begotten Son, the Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince-of-Peace, the God of the Amen, the Alpha and the Omega.

May the King of kings and Lord of lords grant your spirit solace!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

---

All facts based on knowledge of Jewish Law. Read Isaiah 2:2,3 and take my word for it, because I am instructing you from Zion,
where the word of God is supposed to come from.

Ben:

Salvation is from the Jews, that is the first thing you have said that is worth anything… but you should continue to learn about the Jews… when John the Baptist came they shunned his baptism and refused to believe–except for the Remnant which Yahweh God prophesied about all Jews would close their heart and mind to the Truth: the Immanuel lived among them and they rejected and Crucified Him as prophesied by Isaiah so that, in the fullness of times, the Gentines (those who were not His people) could enter into God’s Kingdom; convesely, the Jews (who were His people) would now become not His people till the fullness of the Gentiles enter into the Kingdom.

Get the full story purchase the Jerusalem Bible today and remove from your heart and mind all your twisted preconceptions–allow the Holy Spirit to guide you and fill you with God’s Wisdom and Love!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

---

I thought you wanted to make our discussions more private through my email. If you wana do it publicly, suit yourself. I just don’t wanna be banned again.

Let me enlighten you about Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 is talking about the virgin who would conceive and bear a son, whose name would be Immanuel. Verse 15 says that the child would eat butter and honey. Verse 22 says that butter and honey would be the food of everyone left in the Land. What Land if not the Land of Israel? Now, Isaiah 8:4 says that before that child was old enough to cry the king of Assyria would come and take away his parents. In verse 8 Isaiah identifies that child with Judah, who is called Immanuel, which means God with us the Gentiles.

That virgin of Isaiah 7:14 is Israel, the Ten Tribes, according to Amos 5:2. It gave birth to Judah in the sense that Assyria, having
come for Judah, took Israel instead, so that Judah survived according to God’s promise to David in I Kings 11:36. And according to Psalm 78:67, 68, God rejected Israel and reconfirmed Judah. That’s when God’s judgment had been decreed upon Judah and it fell upon Israel. (Isa. 9:8) That’s when the virgin Israel died of her birth pangs to give birth to Judah.

Therefore, Judah, the Jewish People is Immanuel, which means God with us the Gentiles. That’s through whom God glorifies Himself in the world. (Isa. 44:23; 46:13) It says in Ezekiel that God is santicfied before the world through Israel. (Ezek. 20:41)
That’s how Judah, the Jewish People is Immanuel. As you can see, it has nothing to do with Jesus on an individual basis. Only through assumptions one is able to see thus.

Ben:

…your new signature does reflect your interpretation of Scriptures… so Judah is the Mighty God, the Eternal One? (Isaiah 9:5-6)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Just_Returned]

Nice research, good reference ( Medical )

Naw, I can’t take any Credit. Mr. Strobel, as an Atheist determined to find out the Truth about Christianity and present the facts to his wife who was becoming a Christian, did all the Research. “The Case for Christ”, if you are unfamiliar, is also Lee Strobels conversion story.

I did confirm the Medical Evidence with my wife who is in the Medical Field.
Before i read this, it NEVER occurred to me that there is NO WAY a Man in the 1st Century would know about serous fluid. so if the story was made up, John would have just said that Blood flowed from Christ’s wound. So this becomes POWERFUL testimony that The Apostles got their facts straight and told the story EXACTLY as it happenned.

Unfortunately, Most Protestant Apologist lose credibility when it comes to their arguments against Christ’s Church. They really have to severely twist scripture verses to make them fit Their interpretation of Scripture.

Mr. Strobel has an extended explanation of the oral traditions of scripture as passed down through the history of the Jewish people, yet he’ll deny the Oral Traditions of Christians if it supports Catholic Theology.

He’ll use the Hypovolemic illustration to show why Jesus died so soon and to point out the fact that the story is accurately Told. Yet when it is shown through scripture the teaching of purgatory he denies it because the word “Purgatory” itself is Nowhere found in scripture.

 

[jcrichton]

---

If you are comparing Jesus to God Himself, you have failed to address the issue. If you are comparing Jesus to Moses, you got trapped in a bad simile because Moses was a sinner and missed to enter the Promise Land for that reason. Therefore, you have confirmed the Biblical assertion that Jesus was indeed a sinner just like everyone else.

Ben:

…by your determination no Israelite should have entered the promised land… well except for Joshua.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

By the way, if you expect us to defer to you as an authority on interpreting the OT then you must allow us similarly to be the authorities on interpreting NT episodes like the one of the woman caught in adultery. We wrote the NT, after all. :yup:

Now YOUR assertion is totally UNbiblical. There’s certainly nothing in the OT that directly pertains to Jesus’ sinfulness or lack thereof, and the NT contains several references to Jesus being a) God and b) without sin.

Hi, LilyM!

…the problem with your suggestion is that: a) they made a mess interpreting the Sacred Writings by the time Jesus became Incarnate, and b) they reject the New Testament and Jesus.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Regarding Christian authority to interpret NT episodes, no argument about it, but only as long as Christians don’t involve Jewish laws. There is nothing in the Jewish laws that a woman caught in adultery would be executed on the word of a Jew. That case must be addressed as a parable, because it never occurred literally.

Ben:

…and here I though you were serious about being familiar with the Old Testament… here’s what Liviticus, the third book of the Torah states:

"The man who commits adultery with his neighbour’s wife will be put to death, he and the woman. (Leviticus 20:10)

…again, I suggest to you to seek the Prince of Peace; ask Him to guide you to clarity of mind and spirit; to fill your heart with peace and joy.

In His Name I pray for your Salvation!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

---

I am a Jewish man with knowledge of Jewish Law, ancient and modern. No woman ever caught in adultery could be executed in that manner. I am sorry but this case brought to Jesus is completely nonsense.

If a woman, after the proper Court procedure was condemned to stoning for having committed adultery, a man in the street could never make the executioners change their mind. And from the time the woman was caught in adultery until she was condemned, it would take a long time, even years.

We have no choice but to admit that the case here is a parable in order to enhance the credibility of Jesus. It only proves that the Gospel writers knew zero of Jewish Laws. Sorry, but that’s the truth.

Ben:

You have no choice but to stay blind to the actual account:

Religious elite wanted to bring Jesus down; placing Him in a situation where He would either act as they had been (circumventing the Law) or seem to be against them (they who represented the Temple/Law)… they acted in the normal manner (circumventing the Law by bringing forth not both adulterous parties but only the female) which Jesus quickly discerned and obliterated: if you have no sin you can pass judgment upon the woman!

Sadly, you seem to be bending over-backwards to accomodate these tresspassers of the Law and you want not only to reject the Just One but you are attempting to lure others into the same path (Genesis 3:15).

May the Holy Spirit bring you peace and Wisdom!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

What about when they stuck the sword through his body after his death to prove he was dead. And he never even flinched. Come on you are going to have to come up with something better than that. Jesus Christ is and was the Son of God. He is the Messiah. How about the beating he took. Even the Jews admitted to that beating. They beat him so bad that they were afraid he would be dead before he made it to the Cross. And not a bone was broken Just like the OT said. (explain that)

You need to go back and read how they did indeed make sure he was dead. Pilate did indeed make sure Jesus was dead. You must have missed that part. Yeah they are going to put a sword through someones body and they don’t even flinch and they are going to fake being dead. I don’t think so.

What about how the whole earth shook, how about how darkness fell over. I guess thats just a fluke too.

Come on, if you were going to deny him, you should have said he never existed. Not show everything he did. There is no way to deny him. He is Our Lord Jesus Christ. Look at your great leaders they could not even answer his question. Jesus was about love. He could care less about money and power and that is why he was killed. But the funny thing was, the reason he could care less about money and power is what could he have that he does not own. He is indeed God. Sorry you missed it then, and you are still missing it now. If what is written is not enough, and the life he lived, and the death he took was not enough. nothing will ever be.

Jesus said you are either with me, or you are against me.

It is plain to see he existed as sure as I do. And I am with him until he takes me home. And you are surely against him. May God forgive you.

Hi, rinnie!

…the problem is that the Ben’s of this world reject Yeshua and in their rage they even reject that which they claim to uphold (Sacred Scriptures); when Jesus confronted them He was very loving but also very austere He called them hypocrites, liars, murderers; He told them that their father was not Abraham and that they did not believe Moses; He even told them that their father was the devil, not Yahweh God… He even gave them a simple test when they questioned His Authority and they refused to answer…

The best we can do for Ben, and others in his place, is pray for him that Satan may release him and allow the Truth to be in him.

Maran atha!

Angel