What Did Jesus Write in the Sand?

[Ben_Masada]

Hiyas Ben

because that case of the woman caught in adultery would have never been processessed that way."] Fact or speculation?

The guy who wrote that gospel had zero knowledge of how cases of that character were dealt with in Israel." ] Fact or speculation?
It must have been inserted in there as a parabolic interpolation with the purpose to enhance Jesus’ credibility as the one. '] Complete speculation. ( by your words “it must have” )

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All facts based on knowledge of Jewish Law. Read Isaiah 2:2,3 and take my word for it, because I am instructing you from Zion,
where the word of God is supposed to come from.

Ben:

 

[adrift]

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All facts based on knowledge of Jewish Law. Read Isaiah 2:2,3 and take my word for it, because I am instructing you from Zion,
where the word of God is supposed to come from.

Ben:

Facts no your opinion. Take your word? No I don’t think so. You call John a gentile? He wasn’t. John saw Jesus dead. John saw Him live again.
Did you miss Lilly M

Really? So when G-d spared the Israelites after the Golden Calf incident, after Moses pleaded for them, it was because HE was a sinner and for that reason couldn’t condemn them?

He spared them out of pure mercy and love (for Moses if not for them), and so did Jesus spare the woman caught in adultery out of pure mercy and love.

 

[Ben_Masada]

God is always and forever invisible to human eyes?

Then why did Isaiah prophesy about a child (a human being) to be born, whose name would be EMMANUEL - ‘God-WITH-us’.

In other words God incarnate. Would it not be blasphemy to call a child ‘God with us’ unless that child actually WAS God?

Sounds very much like Isaiah was saying God would BECOME visible - in human form in fact.

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I thought you wanted to make our discussions more private through my email. If you wana do it publicly, suit yourself. I just don’t wanna be banned again.

Let me enlighten you about Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 is talking about the virgin who would conceive and bear a son, whose name would be Immanuel. Verse 15 says that the child would eat butter and honey. Verse 22 says that butter and honey would be the food of everyone left in the Land. What Land if not the Land of Israel? Now, Isaiah 8:4 says that before that child was old enough to cry the king of Assyria would come and take away his parents. In verse 8 Isaiah identifies that child with Judah, who is called Immanuel, which means God with us the Gentiles.

That virgin of Isaiah 7:14 is Israel, the Ten Tribes, according to Amos 5:2. It gave birth to Judah in the sense that Assyria, having
come for Judah, took Israel instead, so that Judah survived according to God’s promise to David in I Kings 11:36. And according to Psalm 78:67, 68, God rejected Israel and reconfirmed Judah. That’s when God’s judgment had been decreed upon Judah and it fell upon Israel. (Isa. 9:8) That’s when the virgin Israel died of her birth pangs to give birth to Judah.

Therefore, Judah, the Jewish People is Immanuel, which means God with us the Gentiles. That’s through whom God glorifies Himself in the world. (Isa. 44:23; 46:13) It says in Ezekiel that God is santicfied before the world through Israel. (Ezek. 20:41)
That’s how Judah, the Jewish People is Immanuel. As you can see, it has nothing to do with Jesus on an individual basis. Only through assumptions one is able to see thus.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Really? So when G-d spared the Israelites after the Golden Calf incident, after Moses pleaded for them, it was because HE was a sinner and for that reason couldn’t condemn them?

He spared them out of pure mercy and love (for Moses if not for them), and so did Jesus spare the woman caught in adultery out of pure mercy and love.

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If you are comparing Jesus to God Himself, you have failed to address the issue. If you are comparing Jesus to Moses, you got trapped in a bad simile because Moses was a sinner and missed to enter the Promise Land for that reason. Therefore, you have confirmed the Biblical assertion that Jesus was indeed a sinner just like everyone else.

Ben:

 

[LilyM]

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If you are comparing Jesus to God Himself, you have failed to address the issue. If you are comparing Jesus to Moses, you got trapped in a bad simile because Moses was a sinner and missed to enter the Promise Land for that reason. Therefore, you have confirmed the Biblical assertion that Jesus was indeed a sinner just like everyone else.

Ben:

I think I’ve addressed the issue just fine - I’m saying Jesus acted as He did without even though He was NOT a sinner - and that nothing about the episode provides any evidence that He was a sinner.

And I’m not comparing, I’m saying precisely that Jesus WAS and IS G-d, and forgives for exactly the same reason that G-d forgives the Israelites in the OT. Surely you know enough about Christianity to know that such is our belief - that Jesus IS G-d?

Forgiveness (at least of offences that are not directed against oneself) is a prerogative of a sinless G-d, not sinful man, remember. It’s not like MOSES ever forgave anyone’s sin, did He? If Jesus were human he’d have no authority to forgive her sins.

By the way, if you expect us to defer to you as an authority on interpreting the OT then you must allow us similarly to be the authorities on interpreting NT episodes like the one of the woman caught in adultery. We wrote the NT, after all. :yup:

Now YOUR assertion is totally UNbiblical. There’s certainly nothing in the OT that directly pertains to Jesus’ sinfulness or lack thereof, and the NT contains several references to Jesus being a) God and b) without sin.

 

[Ben_Masada]

I

Forgiveness (at least of offences that are not directed against oneself) is a prerogative of a sinless G-d, not sinful man, remember. It’s not like MOSES ever forgave anyone’s sin, did He? If Jesus were human he’d have no authority to forgive her sins.

By the way, if you expect us to defer to you as an authority on interpreting the OT then you must allow us similarly to be the authorities on interpreting NT episodes like the one of the woman caught in adultery. We wrote the NT, after all. :yup:

QUOTE]​

There is no such a thing as offenses against God. All offenses are against oneself. So, whomever we offend has the power to forgive us.

Regarding Christian authority to interpret NT episodes, no argument about it, but only as long as Christians don’t involve Jewish laws. There is nothing in the Jewish laws that a woman caught in adultery would be executed on the word of a Jew. That case must be addressed as a parable, because it never occurred literally.

Ben:

 

[LilyM]

LilyM;4696726:

I

Forgiveness (at least of offences that are not directed against oneself) is a prerogative of a sinless G-d, not sinful man, remember. It’s not like MOSES ever forgave anyone’s sin, did He? If Jesus were human he’d have no authority to forgive her sins.

By the way, if you expect us to defer to you as an authority on interpreting the OT then you must allow us similarly to be the authorities on interpreting NT episodes like the one of the woman caught in adultery. We wrote the NT, after all. :yup:

QUOTE]​

There is no such a thing as offenses against God. All offenses are against oneself. So, whomever we offend has the power to forgive us.

Regarding Christian authority to interpret NT episodes, no argument about it, but only as long as Christians don’t involve Jewish laws. There is nothing in the Jewish laws that a woman caught in adultery would be executed on the word of a Jew. That case must be addressed as a parable, because it never occurred literally.

Ben:

I’m not talking about whether offences are against G-d or not. I’m saying that had Jesus been a mere human he’d have had no authority to forgive this sin of adultery.

I, as a stranger to you, have no authority to forgive you for the sin of hitting your sister - only your sister can forgive, or maybe someone who witnessed the assault and was thus an aggrieved bystander. Or G-d of course, who can forgive all sin.

This is my point about Jesus - He was NOT, apparently, an aggrieved party in any way in relation to the adultery. It’s not like the woman was his wife or anything, for example. Jesus thus, had he been MERELY human, would have no authority at all to forgive her of that sin of adultery. None. The fact that He presumed to forgive her can only indicate that He in fact was G-d, and exercising His G-dly prerogative in relation to forgiveness of sins.

Make sense?

 

[twb1621]

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The purpose for taking on human form was in the Hellenistic mind of Paul who needed to organized Christianity.

And Jesus was also a sinner, not because he showed compassion and forgiveness, but because he was a man on earth;
and there has never been a man on earth that has never sinned.

Besides, I have already mentioned above that this case of the woman caght in adultery never happened but as a parable by the writer of the fourth Gospel who was a Gentile with zero knowledge
of the Jewish way to deal with these cases.

Ben:

Please provide credible support to show your statements are not just self-generated opinions based on your own biased interpretations.

 

[twb1621]

LilyM;4696726:

I

Forgiveness (at least of offences that are not directed against oneself) is a prerogative of a sinless G-d, not sinful man, remember. It’s not like MOSES ever forgave anyone’s sin, did He? If Jesus were human he’d have no authority to forgive her sins.

By the way, if you expect us to defer to you as an authority on interpreting the OT then you must allow us similarly to be the authorities on interpreting NT episodes like the one of the woman caught in adultery. We wrote the NT, after all. :yup:

QUOTE]​

There is no such a thing as offenses against God. All offenses are against oneself. So, whomever we offend has the power to forgive us.

Regarding Christian authority to interpret NT episodes, no argument about it, but only as long as Christians don’t involve Jewish laws. There is nothing in the Jewish laws that a woman caught in adultery would be executed on the word of a Jew. That case must be addressed as a parable, because it never occurred literally.

Ben:

which version of jewish laws do you refer to… Derived from where…

 

[CryptoCatholic]

Two things hint that indeed Jesus was writing the sins of the accusers on the ground in John 8:6: (1) Jesus used His “finger.” God used His “finger” to write the commandments, didn’t He? See Exodus 31:18. Perhaps because the pointing “finger” accuses, right? (2) Jesus wrote on the ground, where we find “dust,” the Biblical type for “sin.”

 

[kimmielittle]

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Hi Kimmielittle, care to enlighten me on how I have left a bad taste in mouths toward the Jewish Community? I am not sure what you are talking about. You must be referring to hyphenated “Jews” who have been trapped by the things of Christianity. Those are the ones I have been looking for with the purpose to restore them to the faith of Jesus, which was Judaism.

Ben:

Hiyas Ben

Can we not bring to mind any group(s) who would LOVE to see a separation between the Jewish and Christian Communities.?

All that I have read/heard, ‘by them’, is done in an inflammatory wording. None of it has a bit of logic…and is presented as nothing but hatred.

You must admit, you write in an inflammatory style, at times. When you do, it leaves a bad impression of your intent.

I hope this helps.

 

[kimmielittle]

Hiyas Ben

Can we not bring to mind any group(s) who would LOVE to see a separation between the Jewish and Christian Communities.?

All that I have read/heard, ‘by them’, is done in an inflammatory wording. None of it has a bit of logic…and is presented as nothing but hatred.

You must admit, you write in an inflammatory style, at times. When you do, it leaves a bad impression of your intent.

I hope this helps.

Actually, they don’t just want a ‘separation’. They wish, by their words, “The death of Christian and Jewish people.” BUT they see the separation as a means to that end.

 

[adrift]

There is no such a thing as offenses against God. All offenses are against oneself. So, whomever we offend has the power to forgive us.

What is Yom Kippur?

There is nothing in the Jewish laws that a woman caught in adultery would be executed on the word of a Jew.

John 8
4
They said to him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery.
5
Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. 2 So what do you say?”

On the word of a Jew, no, but it clearly says “they” so there was more than one

John
Chapter 8

17
Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified.

Deuteronomy
Chapter 19

15
"One witness alone shall not take the stand against a man in regard to any crime or any offense of which he may be guilty; a judicial fact shall be established only on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Chapter 17
Deuteronomy
6
The testimony of two or three witnesses is required for putting a person to death; no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

There is in Scripture that those caught in adultery would be put to death. So where was her partner? They obviously let him go but why? The answer: they weren’t really trying to uphold the law but to trap Jesus.

Leviticus
Chapter 20
10
If a man commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.
Deuteronomy
Chapter 22
22
"If a man is discovered having relations with a woman who is married to another, both the man and the woman with whom he has had relations shall die. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

 

[rinnie]

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You say: “And how about all the People that saw him come back from the dead?” Would you be so kind as to mention to me a single one who saw Jesus come back from the dead? Even the “angel” of Matthew, when he came down from heaven and removed the stone, didn’t see anything. The tomb was empty. What did he tell the women who had come to see the tomb? “He is not here.” (Mat. 28:6)

The only knowledge that all those people you are talking about had was that someone had raised Jesus from that tomb. And if you ask me, it happened during the night of Friday to Saturday when there was no one at the tomb area and everything was deserted. I wonder who could have raised Jesus from that tomb. Have you ever thought about Joseph of Arimathea? Think it through!

Ben:

Oh and what about when Thomas saw him, because Thomas himself did not believe until he saw Jesus and his hands. And what about all of the Apostles, they are going to Lie about God. ANd they are going to continue his teachings and suffer death. On someone that was not God. Come on. And how can the OT tie into the NT so perfect. There is no way anyone could Deny Jesus after reading the Bible. And after hearing the teaching of the Church. He fullfilled the OT to the T.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Oh and what about when Thomas saw him, because Thomas himself did not believe until he saw Jesus and his hands. And what about all of the Apostles, they are going to Lie about God. ANd they are going to continue his teachings and suffer death. On someone that was not God. Come on. And how can the OT tie into the NT so perfect. There is no way anyone could Deny Jesus after reading the Bible. And after hearing the teaching of the Church. He fullfilled the OT to the T.

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Sorry Rinnie, but to see someone after crucifixion is no proof that he died. Josephus says that it was common for the crucified to stay on the crosses even from two to four days until they expired.

That’s why when Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate for permission to take Jesus off the cross only after about three hours that he had been crucified, Pilate was suspictious that he was already dead.

Joseph could have felt that Jesus was still alive and laid him in his walk-in tomb and returned an hour or two later when there was no one around and removed Jesus from the tomb. This well explains why the tomb was empty at the end of Saturday when Mary went to the Sepulcher to check on him.

Take a look at Acts 1:3. Luke says that Jesus showed himself alive AFTER HIS PASSION, not after his death. After his passion says nothing about having died. It’s very probable that Jesus did not die on that cross. If you are a faithful person, your faith must be ready for surprises like that.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Please provide credible support to show your statements are not just self-generated opinions based on your own biased interpretations.

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I am a Jewish man with knowledge of Jewish Law, ancient and modern. No woman ever caught in adultery could be executed in that manner. I am sorry but this case brought to Jesus is completely nonsense.

If a woman, after the proper Court procedure was condemned to stoning for having committed adultery, a man in the street could never make the executioners change their mind. And from the time the woman was caught in adultery until she was condemned, it would take a long time, even years.

We have no choice but to admit that the case here is a parable in order to enhance the credibility of Jesus. It only proves that the Gospel writers knew zero of Jewish Laws. Sorry, but that’s the truth.

Ben:

 

[rinnie]

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Sorry Rinnie, but to see someone after crucifixion is no proof that he died. Josephus says that it was common for the crucified to stay on the crosses even from two to four days until they expired.

That’s why when Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate for permission to take Jesus off the cross only after about three hours that he had been crucified, Pilate was suspictious that he was already dead.

Joseph could have felt that Jesus was still alive and laid him in his walk-in tomb and returned an hour or two later when there was no one around and removed Jesus from the tomb. This well explains why the tomb was empty at the end of Saturday when Mary went to the Sepulcher to check on him.

Take a look at Acts 1:3. Luke says that Jesus showed himself alive AFTER HIS PASSION, not after his death. After his passion says nothing about having died. It’s very probable that Jesus did not die on that cross. If you are a faithful person, your faith must be ready for surprises like that.

Ben:

What about when they stuck the sword through his body after his death to prove he was dead. And he never even flinched. Come on you are going to have to come up with something better than that. Jesus Christ is and was the Son of God. He is the Messiah. How about the beating he took. Even the Jews admitted to that beating. They beat him so bad that they were afraid he would be dead before he made it to the Cross. And not a bone was broken Just like the OT said. (explain that)

You need to go back and read how they did indeed make sure he was dead. Pilate did indeed make sure Jesus was dead. You must have missed that part. Yeah they are going to put a sword through someones body and they don’t even flinch and they are going to fake being dead. I don’t think so.

What about how the whole earth shook, how about how darkness fell over. I guess thats just a fluke too.

Come on, if you were going to deny him, you should have said he never existed. Not show everything he did. There is no way to deny him. He is Our Lord Jesus Christ. Look at your great leaders they could not even answer his question. Jesus was about love. He could care less about money and power and that is why he was killed. But the funny thing was, the reason he could care less about money and power is what could he have that he does not own. He is indeed God. Sorry you missed it then, and you are still missing it now. If what is written is not enough, and the life he lived, and the death he took was not enough. nothing will ever be.

Jesus said you are either with me, or you are against me.

It is plain to see he existed as sure as I do. And I am with him until he takes me home. And you are surely against him. May God forgive you.

 

[Ben_Masada]

What is Yom Kippur?

A symbolic Jewish tradition to seek for God’s forgiveness for the offenses against one another. But we all know
that there is no forgiveness if we don’t seek forgiveness first from each other.

On the word of a Jew, no, but it clearly says “they” so there was more than one.

And you mean to convince me that all of them caught the woman in the act of copulation? Where, in the middle of the street? How could a married woman do that and still be in her senses? Please, have mercy on yourself!

There is in Scripture that those caught in adultery would be put to death. So where was her partner? They obviously let him go but why? The answer: they weren’t really trying to uphold the law but to trap Jesus.

So, the woman went through Court procedures until the Judge condemned her to be executed and sent a group of Jews to bring her to Jesus to trap him. Jesus wrote some words
on the sand and reversed the decision of the Judge. Don’t you realize how funny you make this to be? Such a thing is not good even to Jesus’ credibility. It would be an insult to Christianity even to believe such a thing.

Ben:

 

[rinnie]

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I am a Jewish man with knowledge of Jewish Law, ancient and modern. No woman ever caught in adultery could be executed in that manner. I am sorry but this case brought to Jesus is completely nonsense.

If a woman, after the proper Court procedure was condemned to stoning for having committed adultery, a man in the street could never make the executioners change their mind. And from the time the woman was caught in adultery until she was condemned, it would take a long time, even years.

We have no choice but to admit that the case here is a parable in order to enhance the credibility of Jesus. It only proves that the Gospel writers knew zero of Jewish Laws. Sorry, but that’s the truth.

Ben:

There is no parable to question the credibility of Jesus Christ. Just a person and his name is satan. He loves to try to get people to doubt Jesus, Well guess what, he failed then, and he will fail today. Jesus Christ is the Messiah. You missed the boat Ben, and you will never find it at the airport!

 

[twb1621]

Oh and what about when Thomas saw him, because Thomas himself did not believe until he saw Jesus and his hands. And what about all of the Apostles, they are going to Lie about God. ANd they are going to continue his teachings and suffer death. On someone that was not God. Come on. And how can the OT tie into the NT so perfect. There is no way anyone could Deny Jesus after reading the Bible. And after hearing the teaching of the Church. He fullfilled the OT to the T.

Ok Ben, I myself have seen enough of your posts to recognize you find this as a form of entertainment but have absolutely no credible support for any of the statements you make against Christianity. Now to use a phrase you have used frequently, let me teach you something regarding humanity that is of our nature and can not be denied, true today as was true during the days of Christ’s ministry. After the crucifixion of our Lord, the apostles fled into hiding in fear of persecution, feeling lost of the one who they believed to be their eternal savior. People who hide in such fear especially in groups do not without substantial cause (I specifically refer to a cause) become self assured with confidence and lose all fear of gruesome and horrid torture and death to a point of making public proclamations of the very nature that would bring about such torture and death, especially when there is absolutely no means to defend themselves against it.
Now considering it has been attested to by these very people that they had seen Jesus after he had been raised from the dead, penetrated through locked doors appeared to not only the apostles who where in fact the fearful but hundreds of others who attested to all that was proclaimed and that Jesus Himself gave them the ministry to go forth and proclaim to all nations, what more would it take to assure such fearful men who would then abandon the safety and security of running away and hiding to proclaim that which now was proven to them as true and they could know without doubt that torture and death was not to be feared as the end but to be yet the beginning of eternal life with God through the savior for those who are faithful.
There is nothing whatsoever that would have convinced these men or any people then or now after knowing the torture and death Jesus Himself suffered that would convince them to subject themselves to such an end unless they had experienced His resurrection as they had. This is the nature of fear and of confidence. It is proof in action that serves to verify their proclamations and yes, lets not forget that they did at separate times suffer the torture and death they once hid from and it never deterred they remaining apostles from carrying on the ministry. It takes more than just independent “speculative interpretation” of scripture to understand all involved in it correctly.