What Did Jesus Write in the Sand?

[jcrichton]

I am not seeking faith. I am seeking knowledge.
Where faith begins, knowledge ends; and for lack of knowledge, people perish. That’s in Hosea 4:6.

Yes, but people perish because they lack knowledge of God, not human intellect!

What is the mind of Christ? Is it the mind of Paul? I have been wondering because he was the one who first came up with that concept, when he spent a whole year in the Nazarene Synagogue of Antioch preaching that Jesus was Christ.

Quite the contrary, St. Paul is seeking to gain the Mind of Christ; the Mind of Christ is the Mind of God:

13 However, when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking of his own accord, but will say only what he has been told; and he will reveal to you the things to come.
14 He will glorify me, since all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine.
15 Everything the Father has is mine; that is why I said: all he reveals to you will be taken from what is mine. (St. John 16:13-15)

Paul never attempted to erradicate the “Church of Christ.” One does not found a church to erradicate its adepts. There were no Christians until Paul arrived in Antioch. Why don’t you read Acts 11:26? I says in there very clearly that it was then and there, when and where the disciples were FIRST called Christians, because of Paul preaching that Jesus was Christ. Why is this so hard to understand?

You are getting warm… just a slight enhancement on what you understand: It was at Antioch that those known only as the Way were first called Christians; yet, this happened not because St. Paul coined the word but because the Believers (St. Paul had been preaching the Gospel for a while before this issue arose) sought to identefy themselves with Christ in a more direct manner–till then the Jews (mostly the religious elite) had forbidden the use of the Name Jesus (Acts 4:8-22); living in that knowledge, it was not unreasonable for the name “Christians” to have not surfaced till the Church began to mature both in the number of believers and their commitment to Christ.

Interstingly enough there’s a passage in the book of Apocalypse that centers on this precise event:

Anyone who proves victorious I will make into a pillar in the sanctuary of my God, and it will stay there for ever; I will inscribe on it the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which is coming down from my God in heaven. and my own new name as well. (Apocalypse 3:12)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

---

And all you have to do is to prove to me that the Messianic Prophecies point to Jesus on an individual basis. That’s all. Do you want me to accept such a message just because Christians embrace it? I am sure you can do better than that. How do Christians demonstrate that Jesus is the Son of God? They surely have a strange way to show it to the Jews.

Ben:

Ben, as I attempted to explain to you before, dismantling your religious belief is not going to gain us anything; at the end you will continue to pursuit what you believe is correct and I will continue to obey Yahweh God by following Yeshua.

Please consider this:

All of the Messianic Prophecies speak of the Annointed One to Come; He will enter the Temple and will abide with Israel, His herald will precede Him (Elijah) Baptizing and turning the heart of Israel to God, He will suffer for the Salvation of man, and His Spirit will be bestowed upon man… WAKE UP, it has all happened!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[twb1621]

kimmielittle;4715068:

Hiyas Ben

In your opinion is this questions answer true.?

** "Question: “Why do most Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah?”

Answer: **

The Jews rejected Jesus because He failed, in their eyes, to do what they expected their Messiah to do—destroy evil and all their enemies and establish an eternal kingdom with Israel as the preeminent nation in the world. The prophecies in Isaiah and Psalm 22 described a suffering Messiah who would be persecuted and killed, but they chose to focus instead on those prophecies that discussed His glorious victories, not His crucifixion.

Ben: COMPLETELY WRONG! Not all Jews believe in an individual Messiah. I am of those who believe that the Messiah is collective. I mean, Israel, the Jewish People according to the Prophet Isaiah. Now, let me prove it to you: You believe that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, don’t you? I believe you do. Now, please, read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. In these quotations the Prophet Isaiah identifies that Servant as Israel by name. And if the Messiah must also be called son of God, you can have it from Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1, where the Almighty Himself says: “Israel is My son; let My son go so that he may serve Me.” And “When Israel was a child, I loved him. Then, from Egypt I called My son.” There is no such a thing in the whole of the Jewish Scriptures about Jesus. I am sorry. The prophecies in Isaiah and Psalm 22 do describe the sufferings of the Messiah but not of Jesus. That’s the collective Messiah. If you wanna a positive proof for that, please read what the Psalmist says in Psalm 44:11-26. But please, read them.

The commentaries in the Talmud, written before the onset of Christianity, clearly discuss the Messianic prophecies of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 and puzzle over how these would be fulfilled with the glorious setting up of the Kingdom of the Messiah. After the Church used these prophecies to prove the claims of Christ, the Jews took the position that the prophecies did not refer to the Messiah, but to Israel (“Zion” ) or some other person.

Ben: The Church used those prophecies to point
them to Jesus based on assumptions without any basis in facts. It works only for those who are ready to swallow what has been chewed by the Fathers of the Church. No more today. We have decided to use our minds to think productively.

The Jews believed that the Messiah, the prophet which Moses spoke about, would come and deliver them from Roman bondage and set up a kingdom where they would be the rulers. Two of the disciples, James and John, even asked to sit at Jesus’ right and left in His Kingdom when He came into His glory. The people of Jerusalem also thought He would deliver them. They shouted praises to God for the mighty works they had seen Jesus do, and called out “Hosanna, save us” when he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey (Matthew 21:9). They treated Him like a conquering king. Then when He allowed Himself to be arrested, tried and crucified on a cursed cross, the people stopped believing that He was the promised prophet. They rejected their Messiah (Matthew 27:22)

Ben: Those were Jews with the same slavish mentality of the time when they were slaves in Egypt. When Moses appeared, they thought he was the one, when in reality, Moses was only a Messianic leader with the mission to bring the Messiah back home. We still have of these kinds of Jews today, still waiting for an individual Messiah-hero to establish a kingdom of Jews. All nonsense; as much nonsense as the nonsense to claim that Jesus was the Messiah, when he never claimed to be the one.

Ben:
So what you are saying is you not only do not believe in Christ you don’t believe in the faith your ancestors passed on either. You do believe you are a physical part of the living messiah community though,. Interesting… you put your own philosophies on the Jewish faith much like the Protestants do on the Christian faith.

 

[twb1621]

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Ben: I don’t understand you: If I ask a question, I am insulting. If I give an answer, I am insulting. What’s going on?
Do I have to accept whatever you say without question? Is that how the Catholic Church indoctrinates people?

Ok, your innocent. And no you don’t have to accept whatever is said to you, but if you ask a question and receive a credible answer, try sticking with the subject instead of ignoring the answer because you can’t refute it.

Did you know that the Middle Age has long gone? Wake up! We have grown up from that retrograded mentality. That fear of the Church is long gone. We no longer have to swallow what the priests chew.

You apparently have grown out of your true religious heritage as well.

On the contrary, they have a lot to learn from us, especially the Jews. If it were not for us the Jews, you guys wouldn’t even have the second person of your Trinity. If it were not for us the Jews, the world would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire, and perhaps even a block of wood in the form of a demon. Be grateful to the Almighty that we are around.

You have more than just a well fed ego going on here based on your rant. We have learned much from the Jewish faith, not the one you adopted but the original one.

I myself have a great deal of respect for the Jewish people and their heritage but I don’t recognize yours based on the position you take and lack of respect you show for even your own heritage.

 

[twb1621]

---

And all you have to do is to prove to me that the Messianic Prophecies point to Jesus on an individual basis. That’s all. Do you want me to accept such a message just because Christians embrace it? I am sure you can do better than that. How do Christians demonstrate that Jesus is the Son of God? They surely have a strange way to show it to the Jews.

Ben:

Ben, you prove how your philosophy is more credible over and above the Faith of the Jewish people as passed down through the Old Testament and the Septuagint. I have read over your referenced verses and nothing but nothing supports your claim that the Jewish people that you claim to associate yourself with in your faith are as a group the Messiah. In fact, if anything they showed their human weakness and the displeasure of God in their sinful ways which in time is what led to the acceptance of the gentiles. We all recognize the Jews as the chosen people of God and all that has come out of it but that does not stand in support of your claims. Your irreverence toward your ancestors is descriptive of the beliefs you selected. If you can’t accept your own heritage how could anyone else expect you to listen and discuss with open reason.

 

[twb1621]

---

And all you have to do is to prove to me that the Messianic Prophecies point to Jesus on an individual basis. That’s all. Do you want me to accept such a message just because Christians embrace it? I am sure you can do better than that. How do Christians demonstrate that Jesus is the Son of God? They surely have a strange way to show it to the Jews.

Ben:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Ezekiel 16:59-60
59 “Yea, thus says the Lord GOD: I will deal with you as you have done, who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish with you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways, and be ashamed when I take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I forgive you all that you have done, says the Lord GOD.”

The Incomprehension of the Wise and Learned

Psalms 143 - 2 Enter not into judgment with thy servant; for no man living is righteous before thee.
Psalm 118 - 21 I thank thee that thou hast answered me and hast become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’s doing; it is marvelous in our eyes. Note: the builders are the leaders of the people
Isaiah 29 - 13 And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote; 14 therefore, behold, I will again do marvelous things with this people, wonderful and marvelous; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hid.”
A Man of Peace

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Lo, your king comes to you; triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on an ***, on a colt the foal of an ***. Note: whereas the horse is used for war, the *** symbolizes peace

Son of David and Son of God

Isaiah 11
1 There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD.
continued…

 

[twb1621]

continued from previous post

2 Samuel 7
12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. When he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men;
15 but I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever.’" 17 In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.
1 Chronicles 17
11 When your days are fulfilled to go to be with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build a house for me, and I will establish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son; I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you, 14 but I will confirm him in my house and in my kingdom for ever and his throne shall be established for ever.’" 15 In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.

The Divinity of the Messiah

Isaiah 40
9 Get you up to a high mountain, O Zion, herald of good tidings; lift up your voice with strength, O Jerusalem, herald of good tidings, lift it up, fear not; say to the cities of Judah, “Behold your God!” 10 Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him. 11 He will feed his flock like a shepherd, he will gather the lambs in his arms, he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are with young.

The Time of the Messiah

Daniel 9:20-27
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy hill of my God;
21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He came and he said to me, "O Daniel, I have now come out to give you wisdom and understanding.
23 At the beginning of your supplications a word went forth, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the word and understand the vision.
24 “Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
Continued at
columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/messiah.html

 

[kimmielittle]

Ben, you prove how your philosophy is more credible over and above the Faith of the Jewish people as passed down through the Old Testament and the Septuagint. I have read over your referenced verses and nothing but nothing supports your claim that the Jewish people that you claim to associate yourself with in your faith are as a group the Messiah. In fact, if anything they showed their human weakness and the displeasure of God in their sinful ways which in time is what led to the acceptance of the gentiles. We all recognize the Jews as the chosen people of God and all that has come out of it but that does not stand in support of your claims. Your irreverence toward your ancestors is descriptive of the beliefs you selected. If you can’t accept your own heritage how could anyone else expect you to listen and discuss with open reason.

Exactly : “If you can’t accept your own heritage how could anyone else expect you to listen and discuss with open reason.”

Plus: How can he expect anyone, with reason, to accept his words as ‘proof’ to his claims. He chooses words to inflame. He uses wording that is arrogant and many times, very clearly, untruths. So clear that even a kid can blow holes in them, just by paying attention.

No matter how loud I shout, no matter how disrespectful I am…It doesn’t make my argument correct. As a fact…when people do that, it makes me look for a flaw even more-so. Many people, I have found, use these technics to “hide” the flawed logic of their arguments.

An argument of speculation/theory …stands or falls on logic itself. Not on hostilities, I surround it with.

 

[mmmcounts]

Just prior to Jesus writing in the sand, the Pharisees had been accusing the woman to Jesus and asking about the Law of Moses “as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.” Then it says “But Jesus bent down and started writing on the ground.”

I feel that the transitional word “But” is a bit of a clue. The theory that I like best is this one: Jesus was probably not writing anything of great significance. He was temporarily avoiding the trap that was laid for him instead of walking right into it. His choice to write in the sand is presented as something He did “instead of” walking into the trap, as it were. After a few moments of clamor, He was able to address the issue (without directly answering the “trap question”) on His own terms. In this way, the woman wound up answering to Jesus instead of the Law of Moses or the Pharisees. And the Pharisees still had no basis for accusing him.

That’s the theory I like, anyway. Hope you like it, too.

 

[jcrichton]

Just prior to Jesus writing in the sand, the Pharisees had been accusing the woman to Jesus and asking about the Law of Moses “as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.” Then it says “But Jesus bent down and started writing on the ground.”

I feel that the transitional word “But” is a bit of a clue. The theory that I like best is this one: Jesus was probably not writing anything of great significance. He was temporarily avoiding the trap that was laid for him instead of walking right into it. His choice to write in the sand is presented as something He did “instead of” walking into the trap, as it were. After a few moments of clamor, He was able to address the issue (without directly answering the “trap question”) on His own terms. In this way, the woman wound up answering to Jesus instead of the Law of Moses or the Pharisees. And the Pharisees still had no basis for accusing him.

That’s the theory I like, anyway. Hope you like it, too.

I fully concur with you that Jesus was not writing anything of great importance… however, I believe that He was not avoiding the trap; rather, He was dismissing their hypocracy: He knew before they came to Him what they were scheming and that they were not at all intersted in Justice!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[juliamajor]

This thread has really gotten way way way, away from the OP. Answer is easy. IT doesn’t say a jot about what Jesus wrote in scripture. Therefore speculation about it is baseless and I think potentially damaging.It’s a mystery- maybe that’s what it’s supposed to be. Maybe your supposed to fill in the blanks - that message Jesus wrote in the sand is a personal message for each and everyone of us who sins.What do you think He is saying to you! Keep what he said to you in your heart and remember it.

 

[twb1621]

This thread has really gotten way way way, away from the OP. Answer is easy. IT doesn’t say a jot about what Jesus wrote in scripture. Therefore speculation about it is baseless and I think potentially damaging.It’s a mystery- maybe that’s what it’s supposed to be. Maybe your supposed to fill in the blanks - that message Jesus wrote in the sand is a personal message for each and everyone of us who sins.What do you think He is saying to you! Keep what he said to you in your heart and remember it.

You are right in that it is left to each person to fill in the blanks for his or her self. But it is never damaging to reflect on what He may have written independently and raising the possibilities may help others to recall things in themselves. For each of us to consider what Jesus may write in front of us can help to bring us back to humility and that in itself reflects our honor and love of God. To some the thread may have gone off the track but to me the subject leads to many possibilities based on each person’s path. I could be wrong but I did not take the OP’s question as just a literal one seeking one definite answer. Just my opinion…

 

[NotWorthy]

You are right in that it is left to each person to fill in the blanks for his or her self. But it is never damaging to reflect on what He may have written independently and raising the possibilities may help others to recall things in themselves.

As long as one does not speculate from a position of authority, declaring all other opinions “hogwash”.

 

[twb1621]

As long as one does not speculate from a position of authority, declaring all other opinions “hogwash”.

so true…

 

[jcrichton]

This thread has really gotten way way way, away from the OP. Answer is easy. IT doesn’t say a jot about what Jesus wrote in scripture. Therefore speculation about it is baseless and I think potentially damaging.It’s a mystery- maybe that’s what it’s supposed to be. Maybe your supposed to fill in the blanks - that message Jesus wrote in the sand is a personal message for each and everyone of us who sins.What do you think He is saying to you! Keep what he said to you in your heart and remember it.

…but that’s just it… Scriptures do not even hint that Jesus is writing a message; it is our human curiosity that cause us to see what does not exist… I liken this “message” (as well as that of those other passages where we fill in the blank) to what is perceived by our mind as we turn off the lights at night: shadow figures inundate our brain and the optical information that reaches it is a mixture of both the abstract (memories/perceptions) and the concrete (low/none light visibility).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Benadam]

…but that’s just it… Scriptures do not even hint that Jesus is writing a message; it is our human curiosity that cause us to see what does not exist… I liken this “message” (as well as that of those other passages where we fill in the blank) to what is perceived by our mind as we turn off the lights at night: shadow figures inundate our brain and the optical information that reaches it is a mixture of both the abstract (memories/perceptions) and the concrete (low/none light visibility).

Maran atha!

Angel

in other words it’s not in what is written but in why is Jesus writing. Even that seems to not so much have to do with writing as much as leading.

 

[NotWorthy]

in other words it’s not in what is written but in why is Jesus writing. Even that seems to not so much have to do with writing as much as leading.

I agree. Its as if He’s waiting,… letting them bait their trap… so that they can more completely fall into it.

 

[jcrichton]

in other words it’s not in what is written but in why is Jesus writing. Even that seems to not so much have to do with writing as much as leading.

Correct! Consider that in most enlighten society those seeking an audience are treated with at least the minimum semblance of respect/civility… Jesus (knowing what they are all about) choses to disregard them, ignoring them to the point of writing on the ground not just on one occasion but twice…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Benadam]

Correct! Consider that in most enlighten society those seeking an audience are treated with at least the minimum semblance of respect/civility… Jesus (knowing what they are all about) choses to disregard them, ignoring them to the point of writing on the ground not just on one occasion but twice…

Maran atha!

Angel

Ok now I’m going to have to reread it in that light because that cracked me up. It seems to fit the rythm of the story too. commotion, crowd , Jesus sitting there not looking at them, writing…they’re trying to coax a quick rash decision…oh man that’s good .

I hate to say it but that changes the meaning of the act of writing and the relationships of the main people in the story for me. It really gives meaning to Jesus’ not paying attention to them till he stands up and with a breath " let the first among you…" and they are toast. edit …it’s interesting that Jesus classifies them in terms first and last the author classifies them in terms of age.

Thanks jcrich.

 

[c659smith]

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I thought you wanted to make our discussions more private through my email. If you wana do it publicly, suit yourself. I just don’t wanna be banned again.

Let me enlighten you about Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 is talking about the virgin who would conceive and bear a son, whose name would be Immanuel. Verse 15 says that the child would eat butter and honey. Verse 22 says that butter and honey would be the food of everyone left in the Land. What Land if not the Land of Israel? Now, Isaiah 8:4 says that before that child was old enough to cry the king of Assyria would come and take away his parents. In verse 8 Isaiah identifies that child with Judah, who is called Immanuel, which means God with us the Gentiles.

That virgin of Isaiah 7:14 is Israel, the Ten Tribes, according to Amos 5:2. It gave birth to Judah in the sense that Assyria, having
come for Judah, took Israel instead, so that Judah survived according to God’s promise to David in I Kings 11:36. And according to Psalm 78:67, 68, God rejected Israel and reconfirmed Judah. That’s when God’s judgment had been decreed upon Judah and it fell upon Israel. (Isa. 9:8) That’s when the virgin Israel died of her birth pangs to give birth to Judah.

Therefore, Judah, the Jewish People is Immanuel, which means God with us the Gentiles. That’s through whom God glorifies Himself in the world. (Isa. 44:23; 46:13) It says in Ezekiel that God is santicfied before the world through Israel. (Ezek. 20:41)
That’s how Judah, the Jewish People is Immanuel. As you can see, it has nothing to do with Jesus on an individual basis. Only through assumptions one is able to see thus.

Ben:

Very good quotes but only one problem here and I bet you can guess what it is?

The Tora was not approved and went through several revisions for 300 or more years after Christ. The Old Testament that the Catholic Church uses which is not what you quote came from the Tora before the Jewish Tora was approved. The Jewish authorities or religious refused to approve till afther the Catholic publish what was there in order to refute the Messish.

The modern Jewish canon was not rigidly fixed until the third century A.D.