What do CAFers think about housing policy, particularly affordable housing for the working class?

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midori said:
But the people who were earning $10k/month hadn’t been taught how to manage their resources. When the $10k/month was coming in, they were blowing it on expensive cars, fancy houses, boats, vacations, whatever. And when they have to go back to a $10-$15/hr job like everyone else around here, 99 out of 100 of them haven’t set aside a good savings cushion, or done anything useful to have gotten ahead when times were good.
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It isn’t just a matter of being taught and confined to the working class. Plenty of doctors and lawyers live far beyond their means. If they lose work they are just as close to financial ruin.

What explains this is lack of impulse control, a desire for instant gratification, vanity and good old greed. These are human weaknesses and sins. You can’t just teach it away because the weakness remains. At the end of the day we all either give in to our sinful desires or deny them. It isn’t knowledge that is missing but moral strength.
 
To be fair, isn’t one of the issues with workers is constraints due to low pay and/or high cost of living? Even if you manage to save breadcrumbs, if a rainy day or crisis comes around a corner, you get wiped up. If that were to happen multiple times, that would feel quite discouraging wouldn’t it?

Fellow posters, do you think a combination of lightening regulations (without going too far (think earthquake retrofitting) and increased subsidies can help end any affordable housing crises that some of our communities are facing and experiencing?

In respect to financial literacy, that might be a good idea although one issue I see is that without practical application and experience, the information just might zoom over them. They’re know it in theory but not necessarily in practice. Still probably better than nothing.
 
A lot of the problem is there just isn’t a one sized fits all solution. Lots of people are in poverty for lots of different reasons.
 
Perhaps this is where “subsidiarity” (haven’t really studied itself) works. Local communities are more responsive and perhaps “in tune” with the needs of their constituencies though they may need help (maybe even lots of help) from higher level sectors of society like a regional or national government. Although, there should be a hierarchy that represents the intermediary sectors of society (family, community, local, state and federal governments as well as local, regional and national charities and non-profit organizations) to help organize and arrange issues and needs in order (I’m being vain because I like hearing myself talk).

That said, could “the system” of things work better if it was something like the following (which warrants a thread of its own)

If in need, go to family or friends.

If not, go to the church and the community.

If not, try charities and non-profits.

If not, go to local and state governments.

National and federal authorities as a last resort.

And ideally societies and governments should arrange themselves according to that. Could things probably work better in Europe since a lot of the countries are small enough to be considered states which have high levels of cohesion means it’s easier to come to a consensus to organizing and running social systems.

Forgive me for going all over the place.
 
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exnihilo said:
Plenty of doctors and lawyers live far beyond their means. If they lose work they are just as close to financial ruin.
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Once upon a time, I did some temp work doing data entry for an insurance company. Customer Service was a few cubicles away in my area. I remember one woman was on the phone with a guy for what seemed like forever, and she came over to tell us all about it.

It was a surgeon who, I think, had been injured, and was unable to work. He was insured, though, so he would be living off of insurance while he healed. And he was absolutely outraged. “How am I supposed to make ends meet on $250,000/year?”

That was during the dot-com bust… so $250k then actually had about $355k of today’s buying power.

Everyone had a good laugh, because I doubt any of us in the cubicles were making more than $20-$25k/year, and some of us much less. But it always stuck in my head as a potent reminder that as our income increases, our budget increases to meet it, unless we take steps to keep our expenditures stable.

But you also see it with generational money.

Gus Hilton was an immigrant who made his money as a banker and merchant in a New Mexico mining village. He was well-off for his day, but he’d worked hard to get there.

His son Conrad Hilton wanted to make his fortune in banking, but ended up realizing that hotels were a great opportunity. He became insanely wealthy.

Conrad’s son, William Barron Hilton, grew up to become chairman of his father’s hotel empire. He was insanely wealthy as well. When he died, he left $2.3 billion to charity.

William’s son, Richard Hilton, went into real estate in exclusive territories. He has a net worth of about $300 million.

Richard’s daughter, Paris Hilton… is famous for being famous, for being rich, for living an extravagant lifestyle, and for making homemade sex tapes. She also has a net worth of about $300 million… but it will be interesting to see things end up four generations in the future, because the decision-making skills that made Gus, Conrad, and William insanely wealthy probably haven’t been transferred on to the current generation. On the plus side, they can employ legions of people to protect their dynastic wealth from the poor decisions of individuals… but ultimately, it’s a visibly downward slide that will take self-discipline to reverse, and if it hasn’t been taught to you, it’s hard to spontaneously cultivate it.
 
To be fair, perhaps some could be taught better and lacked a good opportunity being taught. Perhaps a program or organization like the Society of St.Vincent De Paul could organizing and scale up mentoring programs where individuals and communities work with the poor and disadvantaged and help them to a better place. Such an initiative would be mutually beneficial; one by providing aid the disadvantaged while providing a sense of meaning and fulfillment to the volunteers and people helping out. But how do you get such things involved in a industrial scale. Right now, we have overwhelmed human service agencies, (with perhaps burnt out social workers) who are possibly used to being on the chopping block.

Sorry, I’m being pushy again.
 
The subsidies have to come from somewhere, the money doesn’t just pop into existence. It will be taken out of everyone’s paycheck, thereby making it more difficult for everyone, while only benefiting a few.

I stand by my earlier statements that the government needs to stay out of it. That will hurt some people, to be sure, but not nearly as many as increased government involvement. If an area cannot support its population, that population needs to move. Subsidies only serve to keep people in an area that is incapable of naturally accommodating them. It sucks, I’m not trying to say it doesn’t, but it’s better to recognize the problem than to try to mask it.
 
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Earlier, you mentioned part of the issue in respect to housing policy (forgive me for coming in from outfield) was with poverty and how it was related to segregation (granted implicit) and socioeconomic isolation, why not support this as an effort to integrate our communities through funding certain policies (again probably warrants a different thread) while helping a few (okay yeah I see how this wouldn’t help the majority of people necessarily) in hopes of meeting the mandate of Brown V Board of Education (again warrants a different thread).

By the way, just curious, how long have you been an architect (and how is it, is it a fun career, pardon I decided to ask)? Since we are talking about a policy area that is interconnected to your career is there a part of you that has a view coming from an architect’s perspective?
 
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RCIAGraduate said:
Earlier, you mentioned part of the issue in respect to housing policy (forgive me for coming in from outfield) was with poverty and how it was related to segregation (granted implicit) and socioeconomic isolation, why not support this as an effort to integrate our communities through funding certain policies (again probably warrants a different thread) while helping a few (okay yeah I see how this wouldn’t help the majority of people necessarily) in hopes of meeting the mandate of Brown V Board of Education (again warrants a different thread).
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I said nothing of segregation, at least not in racial terms, which is what you seem to be implying. It is true that there is a racial component to poverty, and that African Americans seem far more prone to economic poverty than others. However, the trends I’m speaking of are true across all races. Concentrated poverty breeds problems, period.

I don’t see that working because of the limited scope. It wouldn’t impact enough people to make a difference, and the costs required to achieve any noticeable results would be extremely detrimental to both the middle and lower classes.

There’s also the fact that I think forced de-segregation is just as harmful as forced segregation. That’s a topic for another thread though.
 
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By the way, just curious, how long have you been an architect (and how is it, is it a fun career, pardon I decided to ask)? Since we are talking about a policy area that is interconnected to your career is there a part of you that has a view coming from an architect’s perspective?
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I’m technically not an architect yet. I have two tests and about 300 work hours left to go before I can legally call myself that. I’ve been working in the architecture field for six years. (I actually joined these forums shortly after I started my job). As for if it’s a fun career… not really. Very few “architects” are actually heavily involved in design, despite the fact that most people enter into architecture wanting to design. Most of us are on the production side of things, putting together the drawings sets that are used to construct the building. It used to be that these sets were thirty or forty sheets, with basic plans / dimensions, some detailing, and elevations intended to express the visual goals. Now, due to our overly-litigious society, we routinely produce 400-500 sheet document sets that have to cover every conceivable detail, otherwise the contractors ask about even the simplest thinsg, and we’re liable to be sued for every little thing that goes wrong…

I would not recommend getting into architecture unless you enjoy drafting work, as you will probably not be a designer. That said, I do still enjoy my job for the most part. It can be fun figuring out how to make things work or what’s the best way to put a building together. Figuring out a complex detail or figuring out how to create something visually interesting is also a lot of fun. I am also the lead VR developer for my company, and get to do a lot of fun stuff that’s not technically architecture, but related to it. That’s a niche I’ve spent six years carving out though, not the norm.

As for how this influences my views, it might, but the primary influence is just looking at how things have worked when the government has tried to fix the problem before. We had to study a lot of city planning and architectural history during school, and the “projects” got brought up on more than one occasion as an example of how to crate living spaces that breed illegality and poverty. I believe that good architecture can alleviate some of the burdens of poverty, and that good city planning is absolutely necessary; but this doesn’t really impact my understanding of the role the government should play.
 
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I admit I’m somewhat suspicious. I like the idea in principle, but I also think that the lower down you go often the more susceptible you are to people’s biases or just misreading the situation. I’m well aware my family has a wonderful loving we’ll-be-happy-to-help front and a toxic disaster behind closed doors, and that can really confuse and frustrate people for “why should we help when your family is willing to help you out?”

I think it has some good ideas, but you’d need to allow for situations where the help an individual is receiving is not actually helpful.
 
  1. Meat consumption
  2. Fast fashion obsession
  3. Things we don’t or can’t use like gym membership, timeshares or subscription box
  4. Huge houses
  5. Keeping things ice cold like our home, drinks, produce or fruits
  6. Not cooking at home
  7. Always needing new things like a new upgraded phone or new car

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In 2007, Oprah met Felice, a young mother from California who spent hundreds of dollars every month on Starbucks and manicures but didn’t have health insurance for her six children. Viewers across the nation were fired up about her reckless spending.


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TAKE NOTES!!!
 
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Setting aside all the emotion in your posts, at what point do you believe these poor disadvantaged people need to take personal responsibility for their circumstances? Yes, some people grow up in the projects, with parents who are not there for them, all sorts of terrible circumstances, but after a certain age, it’s time to stop blaming your past and do something to position yourself for the future. Failing to do so is your own fault, and it’s not the taxpayers’ responsibility to support you at that point.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for financial help, but on a temporary basis while you are working hard to improve your situation.

No one, except maybe those with disabilities or some other extenuating circumstances, should work a minimum wage job long term. If you struggle for a year or two, I feel for you; if you struggle for 20 years at the same job, it’s your choice at that point. Improve your education at the free adult night school, or work your way up in your company. Get a year of experience washing dishes and use this experience to get a better job elsewhere, and keep growing. Blaming your circumstances is simply not an excuse, at least not in this country where there are so many resources to help those who want help.
 
GREED, by and large lies at the heart of most all housing issues in the more ‘prosperous’ parts of the world. IMHO. Make it to Heaven and you will get a very nice ‘mansion’, no rent or mortgage, courtesy of God - it is said they don’t come with bedrooms, because in Heaven you never feel the need to sleep. 😁
 
LisaB said:
Improve your education at the free adult night school, or work your way up in your company. Get a year of experience washing dishes and use this experience to get a better job elsewhere, and keep growing.
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I don’t know where you are, but I have literally never heard of a “free adult night school.” School’s expensive and you’re expected to take the classes when the school offers them, even if it’s during the day. There are more online programs now, although mostly limited to tech fields.

Also, no one cares at all how much experience you have washing dishes - a fresh college graduate with no working experience whatsoever is more valuable to every job I know of than someone with 3 or 4 years experience washing dishes, unless it’s another job washing dishes. Managers come from people with management degrees, not people who have lots of experience washing dishes. That and there’s so few upper level jobs in retail type work compared to lower level jobs that only a very few people will be able to work their way up.

I got told it was actually worse to have the retail type experience than none at all, because it sends employers the message that your skills aren’t up to par and you couldn’t get a good job right away. They’d rather have a fresh graduate.

I’ve looked into the resources out there to help people, and when I tried to use them it was basically “but you have a retail job that’s 30 hours a week, all we can do is help you find another job that’s pretty much the same.” Really the overall attitude was “well, you have a job, so there’s nothing more we can give you.”
 
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I’m in San Diego and we do have an adult school that offers a ton of classes. It’s not a college, you don’t get a degree there, but you can get a GRE, or take classes like computer basics to improve your skills. So someone who wants to get out of doing dishes can start there.

I’m not talking about going from dishwasher to CEO. I’m talking about going from dishwasher to cashier, to shift manager. Then to an entry level job at another company that pays better. Or go to a temp agency and they’ll place you at a temp assignment in an office doing something basic for a few months. If you do well, you’ll get a more challenging assignment. After a year or two you have experience working in an office, and you can move up from there. It takes time, but if you are poor enough to receive government assistance, you should be on a path to improve your skills and become financially independent. No excuses.
 
You have to keep striving.

Keep improving what you have to offer.

Take courses in math and physics.

OR … invent something useful that people will buy.

Write a best selling book. The author of Harry Potter started with nothing.

The Beetles were an ordinary garage band with a great manager/promoter.

OR … you can … start your own business.
 
Those are slightly less good ideas than hoping to win the lottery. Yes, a few people succeed. The vast majority pour time and energy and money in and get nothing. Novels at least are free, but most never sell much even of they find a publisher. And new businesses are well know for bankrupting people, especially those without a lot of training and experience.

That’s the problem with a lot of success paths - we only hear about the few who made it. But only a few can, while the vast majority will lose money. People get the illusion that because one person made it, that it’s a realistic path for everyone.
 
It takes work.

People have to be willing to learn and to work.

For example:


click here google youtube affordability

I worked there … pure desert … poorest place on Earth … and yet with learning and work … you get progress.

People are able to learn new things.

Maybe Burkina Faso is the poorest … the country changed its name on August 4, 1984, from Upper Volta to Burkina Faso, which means “Land of Incorruptible People”.[5]
 
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