What do Catholics think happens to Dead Protestants?

[Bishopite]

I think the problem is that there are many Catholics who do believe there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and they share this with others, at times very passionately I’ve seen it debated in apologetics many times. It gets rather heated.

Yes, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but that doesn’t mean one necessarily has to formally be a member of the Catholic Church to acheive salvation. People are saved are because of the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross and through His Church even though it happens in mystical way. Christ Jesus is the head of His “Church” the body (Eph 5:23) and no one can separate the Head from the body of Christ. The Church is made up of formal members (who are Catholic) and non-formal members (some Protestant, Orthodox Christians and others), known only to God who can be saved outside of a formal entrance into the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism- do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

 

[TheRaiders]

All of these answers have been well written. One objection I always hear, however, is “Why should we try to bring Protestants back to the Catholic Church, if they can be saved as Protestants?”
I think the answer has to do with the salvation of both the Protestant and you, the Catholic.
If it was Jesus’s plan for unity. If Jesus prayed for unity, then it is because He understood that it would be through this unity that His redemptive work would be most effective. So we want our fellow humans to be within the Church.
It may be the Catholic soul, however, that is most in danger if they do not even try to help others back into the Catholic Church. As far as I know, the Legion of Mary is the only lay organization that makes a concerted effort to do this. That means that the Church, as a whole, is resisting Jesus’ prayer for unity.
Patrick

 

[Bennie_P]

All of these answers have been well written. One objection I always hear, however, is “Why should we try to bring Protestants back to the Catholic Church, if they can be saved as Protestants?”
I think the answer has to do with the salvation of both the Protestant and you, the Catholic.
If it was Jesus’s plan for unity. If Jesus prayed for unity, then it is because He understood that it would be through this unity that His redemptive work would be most effective. So we want our fellow humans to be within the Church.
It may be the Catholic soul, however, that is most in danger if they do not even try to help others back into the Catholic Church. As far as I know, the Legion of Mary is the only lay organization that makes a concerted effort to do this. That means that the Church, as a whole, is resisting Jesus’ prayer for unity.
Patrick

Well said. I might add, Its not “we” that do it, but through us Christ doing his work, to me that means if people do come back to the Church because of my example then I’m following God’s will for my life, but I might never see the final results of own witness. I should never hide from the fact I’m Catholic and be willing to share it at all times at the Holy Spirit’s moving. To do this I must be willing to learn as much as I am able and live my faith to the best of my ability. Be not ashamed, but most of all “Be not Afraid”.

 

[mikew262]

Yes, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but that doesn’t mean one necessarily has to formally be a member of the Catholic Church to acheive salvation. People are saved are because of the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross and through His Church even though it happens in mystical way. Christ Jesus is the head of His “Church” the body (Eph 5:23) and no one can separate the Head from the body of Christ. The Church is made up of formal members (who are Catholic) and non-formal members (some Protestant, Orthodox Christians and others), known only to God who can be saved outside of a formal entrance into the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism- do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

I suspect if you try to tell a Baptist that he is an non-formal member of the Catholic Church, he’d blow a fuse. :bigyikes:

They and others DO NOT considers themselves remotely connected to the Catholic Church and some consider us corrupt heretics. The Church may say they are still non-formally connected, but does that really make it so? Go ask any Protestant (with the possible exception of the Anglican Church).

My posting of CCC 847 I believe rightly says that those outside the Church may obtain salvation.

 

[bunbun]

All of these answers have been well written. One objection I always hear, however, is “Why should we try to bring Protestants back to the Catholic Church, if they can be saved as Protestants?”
I think the answer has to do with the salvation of both the Protestant and you, the Catholic.

Another answer is that we have received something infinitely precious as a Catholic: we have received the Good News of the Christ. This is something we should be excited about, shouting from every roof top, babbling at everyone we meet. (In practice, it is wise to be slightly more prudent )

I think if we think of salvation only in terms of the avoidance of damnation (both for ourselves and others), we are missing the true treasury of what we have been given. Bringing Protestants to the fullness of the faith is something we should do for them because we care for them. They are missing out at the moment, though they do not know it.

 

[MilesXpisti]

I suspect if you try to tell a Baptist that he is an non-formal member of the Catholic Church, he’d blow a fuse. :bigyikes:

They and others DO NOT considers themselves remotely connected to the Catholic Church and some consider us corrupt heretics. The Church may say they are still non-formally connected, but does that really make it so? Go ask any Protestant (with the possible exception of the Anglican Church).

My posting of CCC 847 I believe rightly says that those outside the Church may obtain salvation.

Sorry, Mike, but it sounds like you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul, if I may be permitted the pun. On the one had, you use a declaration of the Church to say that these people have a chance at salvation (which I do believe to be true, though not with the frequency you do apparently). On the other hand you deny the authority of the Church to say (and say with the same document no less) that these individuals are, despite whatever personal piousness they possess, in a state of imperfect communion. Sorry, pal, but you can’t have it both ways.

 

[Nicene]

My wife and I are just beginning our conversion. She thinks Catholics believe non-Catholics go to hell when they die. Her deceased grandmother, a devout Southern Baptist, has always been her idol, and she’s having touble working this out.

I tell her Catholics don’t believe that, but it would be nice to point her to a writing somewhere. Does anyone have a link to something that discusses this? Thanks in advance.

What do Catholics think happens to Dead Protestants?

A: They decompose, same as dead catholics (or at least the majority of catholics)

As far as heaven and salvation? That’s Jesus job. We don’t get to usurp that role.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[bunbun]

As far as heaven and salvation? That’s Jesus job. We don’t get to usurp that role.
Nicene

I think this is a really important point. Traditionally Divine Sovereignty in matters of salvation was invoked to explain how you could have “no salvation apart from the church” (extra Ecclesiam nulla salus) at the same time as admitting all the Jewish Patriarchs, the Holy innocents etc. as Saints.

With the increased or renewed emphasis of the Church as the sacrament of Christ, there is more stress on how even for those who are not formally part of the Church (without the slightest degree of communion), yet in some mysterious way receive the abundant grace which God pours out through the Church. This is also linked to the Pauline anthropology stressing the profound solidarity of the human race (e.g. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.)

I suppose the two approaches are complementary.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Those outside the Church may obtain salvation. Here is what the Church teaches:

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

Tell me how this is any different from what I wrote.

CDL

 

[Bishopite]

I suspect if you try to tell a Baptist that he is an non-formal member of the Catholic Church, he’d blow a fuse. :bigyikes:

They and others DO NOT considers themselves remotely connected to the Catholic Church and some consider us corrupt heretics. The Church may say they are still non-formally connected, but does that really make it so? Go ask any Protestant (with the possible exception of the Anglican Church).

My posting of CCC 847 I believe rightly says that those outside the Church may obtain salvation.

First of all, I did NOT say a Baptist or a non-Catholic Christian WILL obtain salvation outside the Church, but said…

The Church is made up of formal members (who are Catholic) and non-formal members (some Protestant, Orthodox Christians and others), known only to God who can be saved outside of a formal entrance into the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

"Can be saved" doesn’t mean absolutely will nor absotutely won’t but assumes a posibility of either position to which is reserved to God alone.

And, whether or not a Baptist considers himself a part of the Catholic Church in a non-formal way or that they consider Catholics heretics isn’t the criteria for being saved. The ordinary criteria is faith in Christ Jesus and sacramental baptism, however there are also extraordinary ways known only to God alone for only He knows whether a person is genuinely following the truth that has been revealed to them. Certainly God knows their hearts and knows if they are or are not culpible of on judgment day as the CCC says in 847-848.
If one knows that they should be formally part of the Catholic Church and don’t enter into it, thus showing some are and culpable, those won’t achieve salvation as the CCC says in 846.

 

[bunbun]

Tell me how this is any different from what I wrote.
CDL

Perhaps you are not really suggesting that non-Catholics go through extra or even necessary purgatory whereas (some) Catholics can go straight to heaven…

I think all this is pure speculation. As for myself, I would be quite happy if I get there at all. Would be very pleased to scrap into purgatory. The souls there are happily awaiting the beatific vision.

It is certainly true that after death, the scales will be lifted from all our eyes. If we merit salvation with God’s grace, there is no doubt that we will be part of the Church Suffering or Church Triumphant and in that sense quite definitely Catholics

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Perhaps you are not really suggesting that non-Catholics go through extra or even necessary purgatory whereas (some) Catholics can go straight to heaven…

I think all this is pure speculation. As for myself, I would be quite happy if I get there at all. Would be very pleased to scrap into purgatory. The souls there are happily awaiting the beatific vision.

It is certainly true that after death, the scales will be lifted from all our eyes. If we merit salvation with God’s grace, there is no doubt that we will be part of the Church Suffering or Church Triumphant and in that sense quite definitely Catholics

Yup!

 

[Skripper]

My posting of CCC 847 I believe rightly says that those outside the Church may obtain salvation.

I don’t think that’s what the Catechism is actually saying. Looking at it in context, it appears to be saying that if one attains salvation, it is from Christ the Head, yet still through the Church (whether the person realizes this or not). It does not seem to be saying that salvation is attainable outside/apart from the Church (and thus, outside/apart from Christ), since Christ and the Church are inseparable. Here are the relevant paragraphs, in context (bolding mine):

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head ***through the Church ***which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. ***He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church ***which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

If you read it in context, paragraph 847 (the one you quoted) isn’t saying that salvation can be attained “outside” the Church. It is saying that if one, through no fault of their own, is truly ignorant of the necessity of the Church for salvation, that they may still attain salvation, providing they seek God with a sincere heart, to the best of their abilities. But it would still be via Christ through the Church . . . . even if they don’t realize that. But it is doesn’t appear to be saying there is salvation “outside” the Church.

 

[SPH1]

Those outside the Church may obtain salvation. Here is what the Church teaches:

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.1

That’s just it. IMO, plenty of non-Catholics are outside of the Holy Catholic Church due to their own fault.

And some non-Catholics “may achieve eternal salvation”. Eventually. IMO, most will spend plenty of time in Purgatory, perhaps until the Second Coming, because they did not have the asset of the Holy Church and Sacraments.

Speaking of which, to those who liberally “grant” salvation to non-Catholics, what then is the benefit - if any - of being Catholic? (Or even Christian?) The Church and Sacraments must confer a benefit beyond merely having the “fullest” sense of Christianity, a full sense that’s nice but not necessary.

The Church and Sacraments are critical to the path for salvation. Outside of the Holy Catholic Church one is on an indirect - and uncertain - path to God. We should never assume that Protestants, Muslims or whoever are “saved” due to “baptism of desire”, “invincible ignornance” or whatever. The surest, most direct path to God is in His Catholic Church.

Finally, there are plenty of Protestants, including Baptists (perhaps especially Baptists), who do not believe that Catholics are either Christian or saved. Nor do they give Muslims or other non-Christians any hope through any “baptism of desire” or “invincible ignorance.”

The Holy Catholic Church is far more charitable.

 

[bunbun]

That’s just it. IMO, plenty of non-Catholics are outside of the Holy Catholic Church due to their own fault.

Maybe and maybe not. But who are we to judge? I certainly do not like talking in terms of fault (even other people’s faults which are always nicer to discuss than our own ). That just reminds me that every day, my sins condemn me in all justice to eternal damnation but for our abundantly gracious God.

And some non-Catholics “may achieve eternal salvation”. Eventually. IMO, most will spend plenty of time in Purgatory, perhaps until the Second Coming, because they did not have the asset of the Holy Church and Sacraments.

Maybe this is true and maybe not. Ultimately, it is just pure speculation. We have to be careful lest this turns out only to reflect our views rather than that of the Church. I certainly would wish that God would not be so exact: It is part of Christian Hope that God will judge us less harshly than we merit. Perhaps we should not begrudge others what (mercy) we would not wish to be withheld from ourselves.

Speaking of which, to those who liberally “grant” salvation to non-Catholics, what then is the benefit - if any - of being Catholic? (Or even Christian?) The Church and Sacraments must confer a benefit beyond merely having the “fullest” sense of Christianity, a full sense that’s nice but not necessary.

The Church and Sacraments are critical to the path for salvation. Outside of the Holy Catholic Church one is on an indirect - and uncertain - path to God. We should never assume that Protestants, Muslims or whoever are “saved” due to “baptism of desire”, “invincible ignornance” or whatever. The surest, most direct path to God is in His Catholic Church.

Certainly that is true, but as I said in a post somewhere else in this thread, perhaps things are clearer if we do not see salvation purely (or even implicitly) as avoidance of damnation. If it involves getting to know and love God who has revealed himself in friendship to us through Jesus on the cross and his Holy Spirit, then who among Catholics would doubt the value of having access to the fullness of grace in his Church.

Again, what we have received in the Church and through the Sacrament is the presence of Christ. This is wonderful news that we should be in a sense shouting from every rooftop. It is an intrinsic part of the Christian message that it should be prosletysing and missionary. This is not merely for the avoidance of damnation of all, but mainly because this is the good news that all of humanity has been waiting for: the treasure that we would share with our friends.

As you point out, too bald an analysis has the danger of making us seem like many Protestants. Our message is not only “now you will not go to hell(!)” but “this is the way to the Kingdom of Heaven.” Glimpses of the Beatific Vision are visible to us through the sacramental presence of Christ.

Finally, on a less reverent note, I always used to hear when growing up, that we are Catholics because we are greater sinners: if we were outside the church, cut off from sacramental grace, then we should would not be able to walk that narrow path to God… Protestants are not Catholics because they are better people and do not need it as much Very funny really.

It is an interesting explanation for the great contrast between the holiness of the Church and the scandalous sinfulness of her members (I include myself obviously)!!

Bun bun

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Bun bun,

It does not take any degree of judgment to know that those who endlessly call the Church and her mother the Whore of Babylon someone who is outside the Church.

Tell me again, why did I convert? Are we really the Whore of Babylon?

CDL

 

[bunbun]

Bun bun,
Tell me again, why did I convert? Are we really the Whore of Babylon?
CDL

No we are not the Whore of Babylon

But the Holiness of the Church is not only a mark
of the communion of saints but is also an intrinsic
character which derives from being the Body of Christ, and the means of salvation for the world. This
fundamental holiness cannot be obscured by the
faults of the sinners who make up the pilgrim
Church on earth.

As Catholics we need to keep this tricky balance:
Not to be scandalized when confronted by our own
failings and those of our brethren, but yet to
remember that we are all called to holiness, to
be like Christ, to be the instrument of His Grace. Easier said than done.

In fact, this is the personal example of our Lord from the gospels: he was not afraid to be found with sinners of ill repute, but instead elicited their conversion.

It is sad though when other people start call us names. In another way though, it is clear that they have lost the argument when they do so. It is hard to
see how this is consonant with the gospel message. Besides it is when we are being persecuted or mocked that we know we are doing something right.

Bun Bun

 

[mikew262]

Sorry, Mike, but it sounds like you’re robbing Peter to pay Paul, if I may be permitted the pun. On the one had, you use a declaration of the Church to say that these people have a chance at salvation (which I do believe to be true, though not with the frequency you do apparently). On the other hand you deny the authority of the Church to say (and say with the same document no less) that these individuals are, despite whatever personal piousness they possess, in a state of imperfect communion. Sorry, pal, but you can’t have it both ways.

Maybe the Church is incorrect on the imperfect communion principle. It seems the Church is trying to have it’s cake and eat it too, for lack of a better way to say it. One one hand, it acknowledges that people outside the Church may obtain salvation, but on the other hand it’s trying to say those folks are still members of the Church, be it non-formally. Doesn’t this sound like the Church is trying to have it both ways?

 

[mikew262]

Tell me how this is any different from what I wrote.

CDL

First of all, there is no mention of Purgatory, that was strictly an opinion on your part. Second of all, the part I posted says “do not know the Church”. I interpret that as saying outside of the Church, not a member of, etc.

 

[mikew262]

First of all, I did NOT say a Baptist or a non-Catholic Christian WILL obtain salvation outside the Church, but said…

"Can be saved" doesn’t mean absolutely will nor absotutely won’t but assumes a posibility of either position to which is reserved to God alone.

And, whether or not a Baptist considers himself a part of the Catholic Church in a non-formal way or that they consider Catholics heretics isn’t the criteria for being saved. The ordinary criteria is faith in Christ Jesus and sacramental baptism, however there are also extraordinary ways known "only to God alone for only He knows whether a person is genuinely following the truth that has been revealed to them. Certainly God knows their hearts and knows if they are or are not culpible of on judgment day as the CCC says in 847-848.
If one knows that they should be formally part of the Catholic Church and don’t enter into it, thus showing some are and culpable, those won’t achieve salvation as the CCC says in 846.

I think we are in violent agreement with each other.

“Can be saved” and “may obtain salvation” are the same thing to me.

I agree with you that if someone knows they should be Catholic and don’t enter into it, then they may be in trouble. However, truthfully, I don’t think alot of folks fall in that category. If they feel the Catholic Church is right, then they will be a Catholic, if they don’t feel it’s right, then they won’t be a member.