What Do Jehovah's Witnesses Believe?

[Jaypeeto4]

TO BIBLESTEVE:

I am an ex-JW, an “apostate” in your eyes (although in reality I am not an apostate from God). Most of the time on these forums I am very harsh with regard to the teachings unique to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. But not in regard to the Divine Name.

I do agree that there is no reason to exclude the name Yahweh from the Old Testament scriptures. We Catholics even use the name Yahweh in some versions of our Bibles (such as The Jerusalem Bible and The New Jerusalem Bible) and in some of our hymns (one we sing at church rather frequently begins,

Yahweh, I know You are near,
standing always at my side.
You guard me from the foe,
and lead me in ways everlasting."

That being said, the general consensus among all Bible scholars (with a couple of exceptions) is that the Early Church’s scriptures did not originally contain the name Yahweh in the New Testament autographs. It was not used by any of the early Christians in their writings, and this was not done out of hatred for the Name.
If you’ll notice when Jesus speaks of the Father in the New Testament, he almost always inculcates the use of the word FATHER to describe his father, not Yahweh or Jehovah. In the Model Prayer (which we Catholics pray at every mass as part of the Divine Liturgy), Jesus does not teach the apostles to pray,
“Jehovah, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name,”
bur rather “Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name.”
In this case he is not encouraging people to go around using the Name Yahweh or Jehovah constantly in prayer or conversation, no, but here “name” refers not to word Yahweh itself, but to the Holy Reputation of God.

That being said, I frequently use the name Yahweh in my prayers when addressing the Lord ( I also frequently just say “Dear Lord” too). But I understand and sympathize with the JW concern that the Tetragrammaton not be deliberately avoided and forgotten.

God bless,
Jaypeeto4

 

[BibleSteve]

BibleSteve, we’re not against you, we’re against the way the WTBS treats people. I have heard many horrific stories from ex-JWs and they have a reason to be against JWs. They were treated like garbage not like human beings. …

In any organization of people, whether it be religious or business, there are going to be disgruntled people who feel they’ve been mistreated. There are also going to be others who rightly feel slighted. It’s no different in any group or organization. There were even people who were disgruntled with Jesus and his apostles.

I’m sure people thought the Jews were terrible people because they stoned people on God’s command for violating aspects of the Mosaic Law. Were they evil people for doing this?

I’m also sure there are many horror stories from disgruntled Catholics about the way they were treated. Do you generalize these stories into believing your church is bad?

If you read up on the history of the Catholic church and how it treated people who disagreed with church doctrine, it might bring modern day stories into better perspective.

Also, I should point out that I simply dropped in to answer a few questions on the topic of “What do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe” and then got ranted on with “horror stories” from the disgruntled.

If you believe that JW’s are “evil” because of these “stories”, shouldn’t you be consistent and be concerned with the behavior of your own Church?

Steve

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Hi BibleSteve,
it is not the case that we Catholics believe that all or even most Jehovah’s Witnesses are “evil.”
And yes, we are concerned about the state of affairs in our Catholic Church. You have to understand, BibleSteve, that the Catholic Church is an enormous organization that has grown big over a period of 2,000 years. Although we are only 1/5 of the world’s religious population, we are the largest single Christian group which dates back to Apostolic times. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, in their basic doctrines and sacraments, are fundamentally Catholic and also date back to apostolic times.

There is strict, often enforced, discipline of bad behavior within the Watchtower Society of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and exommunication is often swift and (sometimes) unfair. But the JW organization can maintain such disciplinary control because

1. the JW religion is very small and very new, comparatively-speaking.
2. JWs are strongly encouraged NOT to read literature put out by any other Christian group for fear of offending Jehovah by reading such literature.
   This tight-knit and spiritually isolationist position of the Watchtower Society makes it easy for the JW religion to maintain morally-upright behavior, for the most part, in their congregations.
   ( There have been sex-abuser of children scandals in the JW organization too, but fewer in number than the Catholic Church because the JW church is infinitely smaller than the Catholic Church.)

You have to remember that Jesus, when speaking of the future growth of the Church he was establishing, told the apostles that the church would come to be like a big net FULL of BOTH good fish AND bad fish. That has come to pass in the Catholic Church.
The wheatfield is FILLED with BOTH “wheat” and “tares.”
Jesus told his followers (meaning even us) that when that situation came to pass, they were not to rip open the net and try to grab the good fish out into another net. They were NOT to go through the wheatfield pulling up the tares because this would also endanger the wheat. The WTS, by contrast, DOES go to the wheatfield, the Catholic Church and tries to pull the stalks of wheat OUT of the field and put them in a NEW wheatfield, the Watchtower Society, the JW religion. Jesus never told his followers to take such steps once the field had become a mixed field. Thus, schism from the Catholic Church, even if done because of the prresence of serious sinners within it, is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, under any circumstances, justifiable in the eyes of God.

The Protestants don’t understand this, and sadly, neither do the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and other small groups which try to pull people out of the Church into their own new organizations.

God bless,
Jaypeeto4

 

[yessisan]

Couldn’t have put it better Jaypeeto!

Steve, the CC has made it’s mistakes and it has and is trying to correct those mistakes. But the doctrine has never changed.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

In any organization of people, whether it be religious or business, there are going to be disgruntled people who feel they’ve been mistreated. There are also going to be others who rightly feel slighted. It’s no different in any group or organization. There were even people who were disgruntled with Jesus and his apostles.

I’m sure people thought the Jews were terrible people because they stoned people on God’s command for violating aspects of the Mosaic Law. Were they evil people for doing this?

I’m also sure there are many horror stories from disgruntled Catholics about the way they were treated. Do you generalize these stories into believing your church is bad?

If you read up on the history of the Catholic church and how it treated people who disagreed with church doctrine, it might bring modern day stories into better perspective.

Also, I should point out that I simply dropped in to answer a few questions on the topic of “What do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe” and then got ranted on with “horror stories” from the disgruntled.

If you believe that JW’s are “evil” because of these “stories”, shouldn’t you be consistent and be concerned with the behavior of your own Church?

Steve

humanity has done horrible evil things to each other in the name of every religion that has ever existed. The difference here is that the Catholic Church has not done these things to me–Jehovah’s Witnesses have. I cannot in all integrity continue my journey to God thru them. It is that simple. I did not leave for emotional reasons. I left because I found out the doctrine was wrong. I put up with the emotional **** for years and years, I justified it, excused it, and it never took me out of the ORG. It was when I found out from the Kingdom Interlinear that the scripture was wrongly translated that I finally had the impetus to leave.
And I find your use of the terms ‘disgruntled’ and ‘slighted’ to be arrogant and patronizing.
My ‘stories’ (or anyone elses) are just as valid as yours are. The good things that happened to me when I was a Jehovah’s Witness happened to me because the people involved were good and kind people regardless of their religion. It is the religion I take exception to not the people. The religion is just wrong. And to divert anyone from the path to God is criminal. This is another reason why Catholics are not knocking on doors now, we have learned from our mistakes in the past that to force religion on people does not make them accept God in their hearts. God calls you first, you answer.

Ravyn

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

another point concerning using the name of the Father is that JWs do not believe in the Trinity—so they do not believe YHWH is the name of THE FATHER but the name of GOD. Believers of the Trinity understand the three persons to be equal, so there is not as much stress placed on just one person above the others.
GOD is the FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT. And the FATHER has been known by many names–according to how He has dealt with and functioned with mankind. Jehovah-Jireh being one that comes to mind right off. Jesus explained to us when He was on earth that our relationship with YHWH was going to be that of a beloved son to a loving Father, no longer needed were the qualities He displayed as a Champion and Warrior God that He showed to the Israelites—we come under the Law of Love now. That does not mean the Father was not still all those things He had been, just that our position with him had changed. In Romans chapter 8 we call him ABBA or Papa!
But JWs’ emphasis on the name Jehovah is directly related to their dismissal of the Holy Trinity and their refusal to accept the Son and Holy Spirit as equal persons of the Godhead.
Ravyn

 

[paarsurrey]

humanity has done horrible evil things to each other in the name of every religion that has ever existed. The difference here is that the Catholic Church has not done these things to me–Jehovah’s Witnesses have. I cannot in all integrity continue my journey to God thru them. It is that simple. I did not leave for emotional reasons. I left because I found out the doctrine was wrong. I put up with the emotional **** for years and years, I justified it, excused it, and it never took me out of the ORG. It was when I found out from the Kingdom Interlinear that the scripture was wrongly translated that I gave me the impetus to leave.
And I find your use of the terms ‘disgruntled’ and ‘slighted’ to be arrogant and patronizing.
Ravyn

Hi
I think you are justified in expressing your experience with JWs, but you should do that in a rational, logical manner and without any undue bittereness, that could improve the JWs and affect changes you desire. I appreciate your efforts.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[paarsurrey]

The difference here is that the Catholic Church has not done these things to me–Jehovah’s Witnesses have.

Hi
I know your indepth knowledge of the JWs. Could you please tell me JWs attributes of ChristianGod from their standard sources; do these have any change say with Catholics or Protestants?
This is just for information,please.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Hi
I think you are justified in expressing your experience with JWs, but you should do that in a rational, logical manner and without any undue bittereness, that could improve the JWs and affect changes you desire. I appreciate your efforts.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

Dear Ahmadi, this is why I hesitate to talk about the emotional aspects of my leaving JWs and only speak of the doctrinal points. But occasionally there will be a situation where the truth needs to be told in all its drama and ugliness. I am not bitter–leaving JWs was the best thing that ever happened to me! But I can’t deny that the worst things that ever happened to me happened at the JWs hands–and did not have to! There will always be some devout JW who insists I am nothing more than a ‘disgruntled’ X or have been ‘slighted’ and am bitter. Make no mistake I can be bitter. But to minimize murder and suicide to reasons to be ‘disruntled’ or ‘slighted’ is understating what happened in a very irresponsible and criminal way!

The Catholic Church has caused similar suffering and hurt and also covered it up–but in the end, they have also admitted it and paid for it as best they can. JWs never admit the things they have done. They blame the victims and revictimize them by destroying families with their policy of shunning. They even manage to blame the everyday normal members for doctrinal changes saying they misunderstood or ‘ran ahead of God’. And their arrogance and cruelty is universally experienced among everyone who has ever tried to leave the group.

I would never go back to them. I would be returning to my vomit like a dog does, as scripture says. I had to have those emotionally intense experiences to see the need for me to leave–otherwise I never would have! Like the pain of having a bad tooth pulled–it was agonizing but totally necessary for my future (spiritual) health. I am absolutely happy and satisfied with my religion now.

JWs will not change easily–just like I didn’t. And this Steve is using the time and resources of this group to count time in the ‘preaching work’ when according to his religon’s rule he should not be even talking to any former JWs (perhaps he is justifying it by refusing to answer posts by me or others who have identified themselves as such)–his religion frowns on using the internet (with good reason–it was my only source of information other than their own publications because JWs are not allowed to seek other viewpoints on matters of faith.)

My personal definition of a religious cult is a closed group that manifests these three qualities on pain of shunning: 1-ISOLATION, 2-INSULATION, and 3-POLARIZATION or DEMONIZATION-the US/THEM=GOOD/EVIL attitude.

Steve is misleading people here about what JWs believe and how the cult operates. There is no room for ecumenical tolerance in their group. They are radical fundamentalists and separate themselves from all other forms of Christianity that they call Christendom (which to them has evil connotations.) Their ideas about Armageddon–that they expect anyday now–is akin to a Jihad. I have actually spoken to the FBI about my experiences with JWs.

They are conditioned to ignore and discount the emotional suffering that they all go thru at some time in their JW career. The only thing that will get a JW out is if they can be somehow persuaded to look at doctrinal errors with an open mind. It is the only thing that got me out. You cannot appeal to their hearts because they are taught that they cannot trust their hearts. They have no sense of charity toward humanity other than their attempts to convert everyone. They consider emotions to be weak and lacking faith. They will betray anyone–even family or spouse-- for what they are taught is the sake of their Organization.

Ravyn

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Hi
I know your indepth knowledge of the JWs. Could you please tell me JWs attributes of ChristianGod from their standard sources; do these have any change say with Catholics or Protestants?
This is just for information,please.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that God is only the Father and they use His name Jehovah exclusively.

They believe Jesus is His son who is not part of the Trinity or Godhead and takes a secondary place, but who has been exalted to sit at Jehovah’s right hand since the value of his blood sacrifice was presented in Heaven in what the Bible book of Ephesians (or maybe it is Colossians? chapter 1 verse 13?) calls the ‘Kingdom of the Son of His Love’ in their translation. This supposedly includes only the literal number of 144,000 mentioned in the Revelation as being bought from the Earth who they believe will rule with Jesus as co-Kings and co-Priests for the Millennium of 1000 years. After which the Kingdom will be handed back to the Father and who knows what they will do then. They also believe that in Heaven Jesus is the same as Michael the archangel.

They do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person at all but Jehovah’s ‘active force’ much like the energy from a battery, the means of accomplishing creative.

Jehovah is a jealous God, ‘exacting exclusive devotion’ (in their own words). He is painted as vengeful, angry and slightly schizophrenic (or atleast bi-polar!) Jesus is so underplayed in importance that I can honestly say I never had a clue who he was. They have done away with the concept of hellfire in dogma, yet they rejoice in horrible atrocities that they graphically describe as how Armageddon will cleanse the Earth of everyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness or so constitutionally disposed to be.

Ravyn

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Jehovah’s Witnesses claim the right to define themselves as the only true Christians and yet deny the same to everyone else. The definition of Christianity to Christians is followers of Christ who believe in the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There may be differences in interpretation between some Catholics and Protestants as to what this means, but in general the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed is what is accepted as standard. Jehovah’s Witnesses reject both Creeds.

Mormons also reject the standard understanding of these Creeds.
This is why baptism by JWs or Mormons is not considered valid by the Catholic Church (and most Protestant churches too.)
Ravyn

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Jesus spoke of the traditions of men trying to invalidate God’s word.

Steve

Jesus was speaking to Jews who were under Law and as such did not have room for Tradition, but we are not under any Law but Love.
Notice St. Paul speaks of oral and written tradition being equally valid:

Q: My Protestant friends say that their church goes by the Bible Alone, but that the Catholic Church has added a lot of man-made traditions to the Word of God…is that true?
A: No, it is not true. Protestants have as their sole rule of faith the written Word of God, which we find in Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church has as its sole rule of faith, the entire Word of God, as it is found in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
All of the Word of God was at one time passed on orally…Sacred Tradition. Eventually, some of Sacred Tradition was written down…this became Sacred Scripture, which is written tradition. However, Scripture itself tells us that not all of the things that Jesus said and did were written down. And listen to what Paul says about “tradition”:
2 Thes 2:15, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” Traditions! Traditions taught by word of mouth, in other words, oral tradition, and traditions taught by letter. Traditions which they are being told to “stand firm and hold to”. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
1 Cor 11:2, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.” The Corinthians are being commended by Paul because they maintain the traditions that he passed on to them. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
2 Tim 2:2: “and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” What we have here in 2 Timothy is an instance, in Scripture, of Paul commanding the passing on of oral tradition.
1 Thes 2:13, “And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the Word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the Word of God, which is at work in you believers.” So, they received as the Word of God that which they heard, not simply that which they read in Scripture.
In other words, the Bible clearly supports the Catholic Church’s teaching that the Word of God is contained in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

Ravyn

 

[jschwehm]

All groups have or develop their own religious traditions. The JWs are full of these as is every other religious group. It is through the lens of a group’s religious tradition that scripture is interpreted. It cannot be avoided.

Jeff S.

 

[yessisan]

Ravyn,

I don’t believe you should have to explain yourself to show why you are not a JW and why you are bitter towards them. What they did to you is intolerabe in all Christianity, and they call themselves Christians.

And as you said, since their baptisms are not valid to Christians, they do not fall in the category of Christians. This wknd my husband was asking why and said they believe in Christ so that should make them Christians. So I told him that to be a Christian, you have to believe in the Trinity, and because they don’t, they are not. PERIOD.

Don’t go on explaining why you are who you are. You are only here to help people who don’t know about JWs see what their religion is, that is all.

 

[TraditionalCath]

To add to dawgfan’s question regarding the insertion of anything in the Bibile, what does Rev. 22: 18-19 say?

Yessisan, I just asked him the same question in another post and he hasn’t answered it. neither has steve answered anything i asked him about the false predictions of the watchtower society. he only stated that he “disagreed with my assessment” or whatever.

when you provide them with proof, they run. they will twist it if they decide to stay and discuss it. but by no means will they even get close to researching what we ask them to. hey,if they can ask us to look things up, then they ought to be willing to do the same thing when asked.

but they wont. why? because the society tells them it is apostacy if they dare to look up anything that is proving them wrong. so don’t hold your breath about him answering that because he has not answered me, and he likely wont.

 

[TraditionalCath]

Here’s an interesting article in a Catholic Magazine, making the point that God’s personal name YHWH was actually in early copies of the New Testament:

jehovah.to/exe/greek/yhwh.htm

I found it an interesting read. I hope you do too!

Steve

i love how you turned that one around. very good steve. typical jw behavior! did you even read what the poster asked you to read?
i doubt it. if your going to ask us to read something or research a specific topic, ought not you to be doing the same thing? its only fair isn’t it?

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Jesus spoke of the traditions of men trying to invalidate God’s word.

Steve is right.
Jesus DID say this.
But the key thing to note is that they were traditions OF MEN which went against the Word of God.

Jesus was not condemning ALL tradition just because it is tradition, but only those man-made traditions which went straight against the commandments of God. And he gave examples of what he meant. The Pharisees knew that the Word of God teaches us to Honor Our Father and Our Mother. That not only means to be polite to them, but to care for them in their need, too.
Well, the Pharisees had a way AROUND that. They had a tradition that a man could simply say, “Any help I can offer to you is Korban (dedicated already to God)” and therefore I can’t be of any assistance to you. And Jesus BLASTED this tradition saying, You have made the Word of God null and void in order to uphold your (manmade) tradition. In the Talmud, there are many commentaries which, if people took them seriously, would invalidate many of the moral teachings of the Old Testament. Now, the Talmud is a collection of teachings of many, many different rabbis. The Talmud doesn’t necessarily “agree” with any one commentary contained in it, but still some of those odd commentaries are there. Those are traditions of men.

When the Catholic Church speaks of Holy Tradition, we are not talking about traditions of mere men that have no authority from God. Jesus taught and expounded EXHAUSTIVELY for three and a half years of his Holy Ministry on earth. After that, after Pentecost of 33 A.D. the apostles and the teachers they appointed, taught and preached incessantly in church after church throughout the Roman Empire. This oral teaching is precisely what Catholics mean by the unwritten, oral, apostolic Holy Tradition. My Lord, the apostles taught and sermonized exhaustively for several decades, and Jesus gave sermon after sermon after sermon for Three and a Half YEARS, and yet
the written word of God, the New Testament, is so very tiny.
Get out your bible and see how thick the Old Testament writings are. Then see how remarkably THIN the New Testament is.
There is simply no way that all that Jesus and the Apostles taught were written down in the New Testament. Everything in the New Testament is true, of course, but the Gospels are about 21 pages a piece, some like Mark even less pages, and they contain a basic “picture” of Jesus and his teachings and highlights of significant events and teachings. They are not exhaustive, and John, in his Gospel, makes it clear that not everything Jesus did and taught is written down.
That is why trying to interpret the Bible APART FROM the Holy Apostolic oral Tradition of the Church as a framework for understanding the Bible more clearly, is like having a big beautiful car, taking the carburator out of the car and trying to drive the carburator !! It can’t be done. The carburator is part of the car. You can’t drive a carburator, and you can’t drive your car if the carburator has been taken out of it. That is why the Holy Bible is 100% necessary to the Church, it is our “carburator”, but the Holy Apostolic oral Tradition is ALSO necessary to the church, it is the car (engine and body) which the carburator helps to run and which gives meaning and function to the carburator.

We don’t, as Catholics, place doctrinal authority or trust in mere “traditions of men.” The Church is EXTREMELY conservative about jealously guarding the apostolic deposit of Faith. I have never seen an organization more conservative, in that sense, in my LIFE than is the Holy Catholic Church.

About heretics being burned at the stake, as Steve mentioned in another post, I am sorry the situation developed wherein heretics were punished (on occasion) by death. I am against this.
But today the Church, rather than turning heretics over to the state for punishment, has deliberately chosen to apply the Medicine of Mercy to those in error. She has learned that severity only works in limited cases, and that patient dialogue with those seriously in error will often bear good fruit. The goal is, and always has been, to save souls: the souls of those already Catholic and the souls of heretics, atheists, pagans, and yes, even the souls of those who have committed apostasy.

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[TraditionalCath]

Jesus spoke of the traditions of men trying to invalidate God’s word.

Steve is right. Jesus DID say this. But the key thing to note is that they were traditions OF MEN which went against the Word of God.

Yes, and if one were to think of the society in this particular context, they do try to invalidate God’s word. They do go against God’s word.
there is ample enough evidence to support this, for one, John 1:1 and their interpretation of the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation.

we all know what Revelation 22: 18-19 says about anyone taking away or adding to the prophecy. The society has no right to add their belief about the 144,000. they added to themselves what it says in Revelation 22: 18-19.

 

[BibleSteve]

Yessisan, I just asked him the same question in another post and he hasn’t answered it. neither has steve answered anything i asked him about the false predictions of the watchtower society. he only stated that he “disagreed with my assessment” or whatever.

when you provide them with proof, they run. they will twist it if they decide to stay and discuss it. but by no means will they even get close to researching what we ask them to. hey,if they can ask us to look things up, then they ought to be willing to do the same thing when asked.

but they wont. why? because the society tells them it is apostacy if they dare to look up anything that is proving them wrong. so don’t hold your breath about him answering that because he has not answered me, and he likely wont.

I answered this question in great detail in post #65 in this link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2262921&highlight=insertion+of+anything#post2262921

Why do you make these false and mean-spirited comments about me? I have read every link provided me and given reasonable comment in return. I haven’t run, or twisted anything. I have researched more anti-JW reasoning than you by far. These comments are untrue.

Steve

 

[BibleSteve]

i love how you turned that one around. very good steve. typical jw behavior! did you even read what the poster asked you to read?
i doubt it. if your going to ask us to read something or research a specific topic, ought not you to be doing the same thing? its only fair isn’t it?

Yes, I’ve read everything provided to me. I’ve been doing so for about 30 years… It’s because I’m more interested in learning about what other people believe than just slamming them generalities like “typical X behavior”.

I provide links for those who are similarly interested in learning. If you are that type of person, enjoy the reading.

Steve