What do Protestant really believe about the Catholic Church?

[ZMystiCat]

Just going to cover a couple of these:

works righteousness

To the extent of us being righteous by our own merit, this isn’t something Catholics actually believe. Most of the CCC’s discussion on merit (CCC 2006-2011) in fact says that merit comes from God, not ourselves.

the sacrifice of the mass

Of course, the sacrifice is a re-presentation of Jesus’ sacrifice, not a brand new sacrifice.

 

[ConcernedConvert]

Same here. Boy I thought I knew what Catholics believed when I was a Protestant… it wasn’t until I could look at the church openly that I finally saw the truth of the catholic faith.

 

[ltwin]

To the extent of us being righteous by our own merit, this isn’t something Catholics actually believe. Most of the CCC’s discussion on merit (CCC 2006-2011) in fact says that merit comes from God, not ourselves.

Yes, which is something any Protestant can agree. However, the Catholic teaching is more nuanced, as the CCC 2010 states, “no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”

Protestants would feel that this still places too much emphasis on what we must do for salvation. Indeed, it is this economical emphasis on merit that led to the abuse that began Martin Luther’s protest–the indulgence trade which was based on the concepts of purgatory and the treasury of merit. The idea that the pope had authority to trade the merits of Christ, the saints and all the faithful in return for monetary contributions was the first Catholic teaching that Luther challenged, even as he continued believing in purgatory for a time.

Of course, the sacrifice is a re-presentation of Jesus’ sacrifice, not a brand new sacrifice.

This is still problematic. The CCC 1367 states " The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice : ‘The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.’ ‘And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.’"

To a Protestant this is all wrong. Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice once and for all. We now receive the benefits of his sacrificial death by faith. The Eucharist is all about what Christ did on the cross and our communion with him by faith and giving thanks for what we receive from him. It is not the sacrifice at Calvary.

 

[po18guy]

Since during the “reformation”, the term has become impossible to define with precision. However, I find several things very curious. All explicitly trust the bible (91% of it/66 books) to be the inspired (written) word of God. OK so far. But, many of those denominations also believe that the Catholic Church is:

1. The whore of Babylon.
2. Was founded by Emperor Constantine in the 4th century.
3. The Pope is the antichrist.
4. Fell into complete apostasy early on.
5. And various other myths, distortions and outright lies.

Believing the above, and knowing that the bible was not compiled or the canon set until all of these things had supposedly occurred, why on earth would they trust such a collection of documents, not a single one of which is original or even close to it?

There are many weaselly explanations.

Very curious indeed.

 

[lilypadrees]

As a Pentecostal, you gave a list of things which would keep you from becoming Catholic.

I have been to Pentecostal church services twice in my life. Both times, it was very disturbing and unsettling and is the one thing that would keep me from becoming a Pentecostal.

The one thing that bothered me both times was seeing people walking through church who were supposedly “slain in the spirit.” I personally don’t believe they were. But that is neither here nor there.

One reason the sight of was so troubling is because in a church where various races were present, it was only the black people who were affected. No one else.

As a Pentecostal, have you personally experienced being “slain in the spirit?” Or have you observed it happening to anyone you know? Is it common in your church that only one racial group of people would be “touched” and the rest not?

 

[ltwin]

One reason the sight of was so troubling is because in a church where various races were present, it was only the black people who were affected. No one else.

Are you suggesting that black people are more emotional or susceptible to religious enthusiasm than white people? There are both white and black Pentecostal churches. Both can and do exhibit slaying in the Spirit. It has nothing to do with race.

As a Pentecostal, have you personally experienced being “slain in the spirit?”

Yes, many times. As you can see by my profile picture, I am very white. By the way, I’m not the smartest cookie, but I am college educated. It also has nothing to do with education level.

Or have you observed it happening to anyone you know?

Yes, I’ve seen it happen to people I know.

Is it common in your church that only one racial group of people would be “touched” and the rest not?

No. I go to a mutli-racial church. When I was growing up, it was all white, but now I’d say it’s roughly about 50/50.

There are some cultural differences due to the fact that in America segregation is still an issue . The way that black people “shout” can be somewhat different to the way that white people “shout”.

The Pentecostal movement has been interracial from its beginnings at the Azusa Street Revival in the early 1900s. This is a photo of the leadership of the birthplace of the Pentecostal Movement in Los Angeles:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[TULIPed]

Generally speaking, I think Protestants disagree with what they think Catholic doctrine is. I would guess that very few mainline Protestants have bothered to read the RCC (or any of the “classic” Protestant catechisms for that matter e.g. Westminster, Geneva).

If they did take time to read the RCC, I think they would be surprised to find that the vast majority of key doctrinal items in the RCC is supported by Scripture. For example:

“The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” Romans 6:8-11.”

We might disagree on the interpretation of scripture, but we agree that it’s of critical importance to our faith.

On the other hand, I also think very few Catholics (on a material percentage basis) have bothered to read/study Protestant catechisms (or the RCC). When I get into good natured debates about theology with my Catholic brothers and sisters, we always begin with what we agree on, namely that Jesus Christ is our great King and savior; and that without him, we are all doomed.

I believe that what we agree on is far more important than those things upon which we disagree.

 

[lilypadrees]

Itwin, no, I’m not suggesting anything. In my opinion, no one is better than anyone else. And each person’s depth of emotion is expressed in different ways.

I am just trying to understand why the only people affected in the Pentacostal churches I went to for those services, different years, different locations but invited to both by friends, were the black members. I don’t understand why none of those of the other races didn’t also have that experience. Not one member of the other races. I just found that strange since it was filled with people of different races. Anyone would find it strange, under those circumstances, I think.

By the way, living in the Bible Belt of the South, I am sadly, well aware of segregation. I lived through it. Our late priest walked with Martin Luther King Jr in several marches during the Civil Rights Movement. And when our beloved priest passed away several years ago, members of the King and Kennedy families were present. What an example for all.

 

[ltwin]

I am just trying to understand why the only people affected in the Pentacostal churches I went to for those services, different years, different locations but invited to both by friends, were the black members.

I don’t know. Growing up in white Pentecostal churches, I saw it all the time. Like I said, it could be a cultural thing. Many white Pentecostal denominations, like the AG, have deemphasized many Pentecostal practices in recent years in order to attract a more upwardly mobile segment of the population. It probably has more to do with class than race.

Looking up “Pentecostal slain in the spirit” on youtube returns a lot of videos of white people falling out in the Spirit.

 

[lilypadrees]

In this case, SnowRose, I wasn’t referring to the people in my area.

However, the people who aren’t Catholic where I live not only refer to themselves as Protestants, they are proud to be called Protestants. As such, I shall continue to refer to them by the name they themselves use.

 

[ZMystiCat]

As a Pentecostal, have you personally experienced being “slain in the spirit?”

To be fair, there is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, where a similar experience can happen. I haven’t personally witnessed it, but my parish has become one of the parishes that they use in the area, and I’ve talked to a lot of people who either have experienced it personally or witnessed it.

And despite growing up Pentecostal and attending a non-denominational Charismatic church for a year, I never saw it there either. Granted, I heard a lot about it at the Charismatic church, but I was never there to witness it.

Protestants would feel that this still places too much emphasis on what we must do for salvation.

Of course, the grace is all flowing from God, not originating within ourselves. Even many Calvinists would accept such a premises as regards sanctification, albeit with a different understanding of sanctification, particularly with regards to how it relates to justification.

Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice once and for all.

We’re not denying that. We simply believe that, in some mysterious way, we are brought before that once and for all sacrifice at Calvary, as if we were there in place and time alongside Mary and John at the foot of the cross.

We now receive the benefits of his sacrificial death by faith.

One thing about Catholicism: All of these works start with faith. Of course it takes a lot of faith to believe that you’re there at Calvary or even receiving Jesus in what looks and feels and tastes like bread and wine. That generally extends to the other sacraments like baptism and confession.

(Note: I’m aware many Protestants are against the idea of the sacraments. I’m just pointing out that faith is very much present, though not alone. Ultimately, it all comes down to God’s grace and how we, through works driven by faith and both empowered by grace, accept it.)

Yes the true Protestant is the SDA

I’m not sure I’d call the SDAs “the true Protestants”. I think I noted earlier (or maybe elsewhere) that they sort of challenge how general “Protestant” is.

 

[JonNC]

You did note the IFs right? I was Baptist for 30 years. I’m quite aware of the differences and divisions amongst non Catholics. If you refer back to the post in question, I think you will see that the poster is arguing from an evangelical POV (probably reformed).

PS: he said Catholics aren’t saved.

Of course I did, but I’m not sure lurkers will. In a thread such as this, comments about Protestants are typically applied to all Protestants. Therefore, the need to point out that it is not always the case.

 

[JonNC]

Yes the true Protestant is the SDA
And they recognized the whore of bable

If we are technical, the SDA are not the true Protestants, whatever that means. The true Protestants participated in the formal protest at the 2nd Diet of Speyer in 1529.
They may have descended for one of the Reformation era groups, but that doesn’t make them “the true Protestants “.

 

[Augustinian]

They may have descended for one of the Reformation era groups, but that doesn’t make them “the true Protestants “.

The SDA is one of many distinctly American sects that arose during the 19th Century, and their doctrines and teachings really reflect on what Americans as a whole commonly thought back then.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

They may have descended for one of the Reformation era groups, but that doesn’t make them “the true Protestants “.

The SDA is one of many distinctly American sects that arose during the 19th Century, and their doctrines and teachings really reflect on what Americans as a whole commonly thought back then.

While I agree with the first part, the idea that they reflect America as a whole at that time is disputed by their relatively tiny membership.
Either way, it certainly doesn’t make them “the true Protestants “, even if that phrase had any real meaning other than in the historical European sense.

 

[JonNC]

SDA. As I true Protestant.
They reject the corrupt teachings of the whore of bablelon.
Of Sunday worship. Disregard of the 4 commandment keep the Sabbath.

A look at the counsel of Trent the catholic response . and its authority.

All the Christian churches accept some of the roman Catholic’s belief.
The Protestant. originally knew what they were protesting.
And now not so much

They were protesting civil authorities attempting to limit religious expression. That’s what the Diet was. The formal protest was not, directly, aimed at the Catholic Church or its teachings. Modern non-Catholics may not know that because it was in Europe, specific to Central Europe, and 490 years ago. The protest is history, but not particularly relevant to everyday life.
None of the original Protestants argued against Sunday worship.
Most non-Catholic communions share many beliefs with their Catholic siblings because we are all Christians and preach Christ crucified.

Beyond that, I’m not sure what your point is about SDA’s who were not part of the protest.

If you want to see the thinking of the original Protestants, read the Augsburg Confession

 

[GKMotley]

History is a good thing to know.

 

[Hodos]

I’d second this. I’m far more concerned with the ecclesiology than I am soteriology.

I have concerns with both.

 

[TC3033]

Honestly, I dont believe many non-Catholics really even think about it…TBH.

I was 20ish the first time I walked into a Catholic church (w/ my then girlfriend now wife). I just thought of them as Christians try’n to get to heaven like the rest of us. We didn’t even know about the whole Catholic vs. Non-Catholic thing until trying to get married.

 

[Augustinian]

We didn’t even know about the whole Catholic vs. Non-Catholic thing until trying to get married.

I think you are not alone among young people , a lot of people aren’t as well informed about religion as they were in the past.

Among our protestant friends, a lot of them just don’t see much importance in doctrine and just don’t have that much knowledge about.