P
ProVobis
Guest
As long as that exercise doesn’t lead to papolotry, I find no problem with that view.
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M
Melchior_1
Guest
“And since I know you, having been bested by the truth, will resort to disparagement of my life and to bad mouthing my character - little ladies generally act in this fashion; and when their masters have bested them, they sit in the corner and wish them evil, --I only tell you in advance that your railings will redound to my glory, when you lacerate me with the same mouth you used in your detraction of Mary. The Lord’s servant and the Lord’s Mother will have each an equal portion of your canine eloquence”.
Care to take a guess who said this? The same guy who said “Cato without, Nero within!” regarding a man who just died.
Are these words reflective of a Saint?
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
I know, he was absolutely irrascible.If it helps, St. Jerome had a legendary temper and flare for the invective as well!
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Isn’t thinking that a saint does not deserve to be a saint the same as thinking that God is wrong?
The Church does not make saints, God does. The Church only recognizes a saint after prompting from God though the miracles that are performed through the saints intercession.
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baylee
Guest
I agree…and I would suggest that things *are *different with this Pope because he was such a public figure. So many of his actions, including questionable and controversial actions, were known to the whole world.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
There are many examples in scripture of people who lived questionable lives but eventually gaining the grace of God and joining Him in heaven. From St. Paul’s life as Saul, to the repentant thief who repentend and professed Christ as the Messiah at the last moment of his life. Pope John Paul II has done many great things amidst some questionable things. We are all human, we’re not perfect, only perfected by Christ.
J
JReducation
Guest
This borders on calumny. The criteria used for determining if any of the current candidates for canonization are truly saints has not changed in 900 years. The Church looks at the state of their soul, their spiritual journey, their relationship with God, their fidelity to the faith, the life of charity and his conversion from sin. The only changes have been in the number of years to wait and the number of required miracles. Those are canonical considerations, not spiritual considerations.Yes, what we do does matter. But because the criteria under the current “regime” in Rome is skewed, and they start with a premise of ecumenism being won-da-ful, then JPII really was a won-da-ful pope.
:shrug:
Actually, Francis of Assisi was a very good Catholic. When we speak of his conversion we are talking about his conversion from the world to the religious life, not from a life of grave sin. There is no recorded evidence that such was ever the case.
Augustine has also been misrepresented. He was a non-Catholic. Therefore, he was not bound by the laws of the Church. He had a mistress and a child. This is true. It is also true that he was faithful to her and loved her very much. He never married her, because of social class differences that did not allow such a marriage. He was not promiscuous or a womanizer. Nor was he a dishonest person. He was a a skeptic, which led him to God along the long route
If you want a saint who did live a life of grave sins I would suggest St. Mary of Egypt and St. Margarette of Cortona.
There have been many. Many have been canonized without the process of investigation, because the pope knew them personally and his testimony outranks everyone else’s. This was the case with Francis of Assis, Anthony of Padua and Care of Assisi.
The whole dispute here borders on a rejection of a sign from God. There is a miracle that has been accepted by the Pontiff. Therefore, whatever this man is accused of, is not as important to God as it is to man. God would not have given us a sign that this man is in heaven, if it were otherwise.
Pope John Paul was an equal opportunity offendor. While the right was offended by his position on ecumenism. The left was offended by his position on women’s ordination, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage and priestly celibacy in the Roman Church.
It is one thing to critique the work of a saint, a pope or any other person. It is quite another to say that God has no right to save them and to use them. It is even worse to speak as if one knew the person’s soul at the time of death.
Remember the Good Thief. It was not his life that earned him heaven, but the disposition of his soul at the moment of death.
Does anyone here know the disposition of John Paul’s soul well enough to say that the miracle could not have been through his intercession?
If we cannot answer this question, then we have no right to question the miracle and no right to question the Church’s right to proclaim it to the world through a beatification.
Finally, Pope Benedict XVI knew John Paul intimately. He can take the same route as Pope Gregory IX took with Francis and Anthony or Alexander IV with Clare. They simply made a statement that everthing that people said about the holiness of these people was true, because they had seen their holiness with their own eyes. Therefore, there was no need for further inquiry, no proof of miracles, nor a decree of Venerable, or a decree of beatification. They proceeded to canonize.
Pope Benedict is not doing this. He can and it would be perfectly understandable if he did. We need to look at this less passionately and more in tune with the Church’s theology on the saints and the rights of the Pontiff.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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pnewton
Guest
By “regime”, are you referring to the Holy Spirit, or do you believe Christ has abandoned His bride? I agree with JR, belittling the Church has little merit on a Catholic forum, especially when done in such a manner, using words like “regime” and “won-da-ful”. Not exactly a fruit of the Holy Spirit.Yes, what we do does matter. But because the criteria under the current “regime” in Rome is skewed, and they start with a premise of ecumenism being won-da-ful, then JPII really was a won-da-ful pope.
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pnewton
Guest
It seems that much of the disagreement with the late pontiff is directly related to his actions in office. I do not think anyone here could even imagine what it would be like to bear the burden he bore for decades. It must be understood that he had to have made many mistakes. Anyone who has ever held leadership knows that making mistakes is inherent in any position of responsibility. As to the doctrinal issues, I too have two doctrinal issues with doctrine that has developed under the late pontiff. One, I believe I have resolved in my head and in my heart. The other, I still can not understand. However, at no time do I think I would have the chutspah to think that I am right and the Holy Father is wrong, without at least acknowledging the possibility that I might be in the wrong. It might be until after I die before I understand it well, but I will keep with the struggle to understand the mind of the Church until the Church changes, I change, or I pass from this world.
Just as a leader will make mistakes, so will we. We will always find some point of disagreement with those who lead us. Let us approach our differences with humility. I appreciate how hard this beatification is for some of those here with much greater differences than I. I also appreciate the grace that maurin, At Trent and others have shown in their posts, grace that is greater, not in spite of the differences, but because of them.
Just as a leader will make mistakes, so will we. We will always find some point of disagreement with those who lead us. Let us approach our differences with humility. I appreciate how hard this beatification is for some of those here with much greater differences than I. I also appreciate the grace that maurin, At Trent and others have shown in their posts, grace that is greater, not in spite of the differences, but because of them.
H
Hineni
Guest
Official: John Paul Beato Subito
Good morning… and we’re off.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Item 1: As expected, the decree for the beatification of Venerable John Paul II has been published.
The Holy See has announced that formal rites will be held on 1 May this year – that is, Divine Mercy Sunday.
See Article in “Whispers in the Loggia”
:extrahappy:
Good morning… and we’re off.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Item 1: As expected, the decree for the beatification of Venerable John Paul II has been published.
The Holy See has announced that formal rites will be held on 1 May this year – that is, Divine Mercy Sunday.
See Article in “Whispers in the Loggia”
:extrahappy:
J
JReducation
Guest
What a beautiful photograph. Is it proprietary or may I have a copy?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
H
Hineni
Guest
Ummm! Father? …I don’t see any copyright on the page, so I guess it would be o.k to make a copy of it.What a beautiful photograph. Is it proprietary or may I have a copy?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
The website:click on the title and it will take you to the page: whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2011/01/official-blessed-john-paul-ii.html -
then just click on the picture so it will become larger - you can actually send it to a friend with the article attached - look for the small envelope near the bottom of the picture that’s marked “posted by Rocco Palmo at 06:00”. Also Father you can click on the hyperlink from - Item 1: As expected, the decree for the beatification of Venerable John Paul II has been published. (click on the “has been published”) and see the website go global!!!
M
maurin
Guest
The key in your rresponse is in the repentance of their “questionable lives.” You state that His Holiness “has done many great things amidst some questionable things.” My point throughout this thread has been my objection to the adjective heroic.
J
JReducation
Guest
M
maurin
Guest
FDR said words to the effect that when there is a problem, make a game plan and put it into effect. If that doesn’t work, admit it frankly and try something else. Many a Traditional Catholic is convinced that Tradition ought to be that something else. These days, under these circumstances of the world, that would truly be heroic.
J
JReducation
Guest
Unfortunately, that’s not a title that a Catholic is allowed to question. I mean no offense. Just a clarification. A Blessed or a Saint is defined as having lived a life of heroic virute. If his life of virute were typical, he would not be a Blessed or a Saint. Heroic becomes essential to the title Blessed or Saint. Do you see the connection?
Keep in mind, that the person need not do heroic acts to be heroic. What is heroic is his life of virtue. This was clarified for us by Therese of Liseux in her writings and accepted by the Church as consistent with dogma.
Virtue is best explained in the writings of St. Francis de Sales. They don’t include doing anything over and beyond the ordinary. They are spiritual qualities that express themselves through charity in the normal things of life.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
M
maurin
Guest
No offense taken, JR!
I believe that I have until May 1st to question the use of heroic. Once Rome has spoken, the cause will have been finished, and I will assent. Anything could happen between now and the first of May.
I give you my word that I am not being smug.
I believe that I have until May 1st to question the use of heroic. Once Rome has spoken, the cause will have been finished, and I will assent. Anything could happen between now and the first of May.
I give you my word that I am not being smug.
J
JReducation
Guest
Let’s hope that many good things happen. I found this wonderful article by Zenit I thought I’d share. It is another answer to the question asked in the OP.
zenit.org/rssenglish-31459
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
B
Black_Knight
Guest
Pope John Paul the Great deserves this and I am praying for canonization as well.
Has anyone bothered to read his encyclicals, especially Ecclesia de Eucharistia?
I spent a week studying it and it was one of the most blessed times in my life.
He was a saint and there is no status quo.
Has anyone bothered to read his encyclicals, especially Ecclesia de Eucharistia?
I spent a week studying it and it was one of the most blessed times in my life.
He was a saint and there is no status quo.
R
roveau
Guest
I am thankful for this discussion because I have learned a lot from it and I feel edified by it. A special treat was that it was a bit of a Br JR fest as well, his wisdom and knowledge has been of inestimable benefit to many of us CAFers… and who hasn’t been set on the right path in some way by Br JR in the past?
To answer the OP’s question. I think John Paul II’s proposed beatification for May 1 is wonderful news. I pray for his and Mother Teresa’s intercession every day.
Even when I was agnostic before I was converted back to the Church, I remember often thinking what a privilege it was to be on this Earth at the same time as two living saints, Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa. What a wonderful witness of faith and humanity they were to all the world, not just Catholics. They were an inspiration then as they are now and the sooner they become saints the better.
To answer the OP’s question. I think John Paul II’s proposed beatification for May 1 is wonderful news. I pray for his and Mother Teresa’s intercession every day.
Even when I was agnostic before I was converted back to the Church, I remember often thinking what a privilege it was to be on this Earth at the same time as two living saints, Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa. What a wonderful witness of faith and humanity they were to all the world, not just Catholics. They were an inspiration then as they are now and the sooner they become saints the better.
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