What do think of the previos Pope's beatification?

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Ultimately, yes, you are correct, but that answer isn’t quite as simple as you make it out to be. I expressed my disappointment upon hearing the news, and in subsequent posts fleshed out my reasons. I also stated quite plainly that if and when it happens I will make my assent. I also point out repeatedly that my opinions are opinions, and unqualified ones at that.

Ultimately, I do not believe that all the previous Pope’s public manifistations of virtue can be described as heroic, ie, Assisi and other ecumenical gestures described in the thread, nor his handling of the sexua.l crimes of a very small percentage of the Clergy and Religious. Certainly his Traditional Teachings on the Eucharist in this day and age, as well as his defense of human life in all its stages were, especially in this day and age.

Ultimately, my opinion, nor yours matters. But there may be something to be gained in the rational discussion of them.
I never claimed otherwise. It is your opinion. The poster just stated that he read four pages into this thread and could not find anyone against the beatification. I was just pointing out that this could not be true.

You are entitled to your opinion, I disagree with it, but as you have said, when the Church does this, which it will do on May 1st, you will assent to it. I think that is the minimum that is required.

As for me, I follow the Church a step further and acknowledge what it says it will do an assent now rather than waiting for the actual act.
 
I never claimed otherwise. It is your opinion. The poster just stated that he read four pages into this thread and could not find anyone against the beatification. I was just pointing out that this could not be true.

You are entitled to your opinion, I disagree with it, but as you have said, when the Church does this, which it will do on May 1st, you will assent to it. I think that is the minimum that is required.

As for me, I follow the Church a step further and acknowledge what it says it will do an assent now rather than waiting for the actual act.
No, you did not claim otherwise, I didn’t mean to give that impression. Only to clarify why I don’t believe the beatification of the previous Pope is a good thing at this time in light of the controversies. WWII has been over now for more than sixty years and that era’s Popes’s actions and motivations are still being debated.
 
However, lately I keep coming back to the Koran incident as an example. I just have a hard time believing that any saint in out Church’s history would have publically kissed a Koran. In fact, I would suggest that many martyrs would have died before doing such a thing. Dialogue with Muslim leaders? Yes. Kissing the religious book of a false religion? No. This was a public action, not something he did in his private life. He may very well have confessed that he was wrong to do this, but we do not know this. As a result, the world sees it as okay…as something a Pope should do…and it is actually praised in some circles. I disagree and I can disagree without hating the Pope.
Whenever I hear this diatribe against John Paul (and no one really knows what he was thinking or why when he kissed the book) I remind myself that this was the same Pope:
- Who traveled to the jail cell of the muslim who shot him to forgive him
- Who “according to a Vatican spokesman, personally intervened with Italian authorities to gain the release and pardon of Mehmet Ali Agca, The Pontiff, speaking to children at a Rome parish on Oct. 10, 1999, said the teachings of Christ instructed him to forgive Agca.”

Which one, respectfully. bears more weight?

I have never known anyone personally (including my Muslim friends and co-workers) to give 2 cents about the Pope kissing a book however they are in awe of the faith of a man whose religion teaches to forgive and love instead of hate and revenge.
 
To set your mind at ease, Francis of Assisi was known to have used the Koran in his preaching. We don’t know if he kissed it. But we do know that he referred to some of its content as “the holy words”. Obviously, he was referring to content that was consistent with Catholic believes. He was particularly inspired by its writings on Mary.
As someone else stated, I have never heard of St Francis using the Koran as a teaching tool or calling the words within it “holy”. Do you happen to have a source for this? Besides, I still think quoting things that are inline with Catholic teaching is a lot different than kissing the book as a whole. I don’t have a problem with pointing out any similarities between our religions. However, according to Catholic teaching, there was no new revelation after the apostles; therefore, the Koran is not God’s word. When the leader of the Catholic Church kisses it, it gives the impression that it is.
 
Whenever I hear this diatribe against John Paul (and no one really knows what he was thinking or why when he kissed the book) I remind myself that this was the same Pope:
  • Who traveled to the jail cell of the muslim who shot him to forgive him
  • Who “according to a Vatican spokesman, personally intervened with Italian authorities to gain the release and pardon of Mehmet Ali Agca, The Pontiff, speaking to children at a Rome parish on Oct. 10, 1999, said the teachings of Christ instructed him to forgive Agca.”
Which one, respectfully. bears more weight?

I have never known anyone personally (including my Muslim friends and co-workers) to give 2 cents about the Pope kissing a book however they are in awe of the faith of a man whose religion teaches to forgive and love instead of hate and revenge.
Kudos for JP II for those actions. I admit I’m not so sure I could do the same thing. However, I still think the former action gave the wrong impression. The perception in our Church these days is that you don’t have to be Catholic…any religion will do…and I believe that kissing the Koran only reinforces that perception.
 
Kudos for JP II for those actions. I admit I’m not so sure I could do the same thing. However, I still think the former action gave the wrong impression. The perception in our Church these days is that you don’t have to be Catholic…any religion will do…and I believe that kissing the Koran only reinforces that perception.
I agree with you, baylee. Also, in the post you are addressing, apples and eggos were being compared. Forgiveness is a basic of our faith, it is addressed in our Pater Noster. Showing the type of approval of error, even if the error is mixed with truth it is error all the same, is a novelty to say the least.
 
I know that I am out of line, but this rushing to make Popes saints troubles me. Pope John Paul II was a courageous man and he certainly was a kind soul who traveled far and wide to promote the faith. However, I personally would wait much longer before declaring him a saint. To begin with, I view him as not altogether a positive force within the Church. I have been influenced by the column of Fr. McBrien of Notre Dame whose column has appeared for years in our local paper. Fr. McBrien has charged that JPII fortified the ‘old guard’ within the Church by appointing very conservative men as Bishops. I also have some doubts about what appears to be his theology - also very conservative. I believe in a ‘big tent’ church where reasonable people are permitted to disagree,
It seems to me that this process of making saints is questionable. Two miracles. Many people of other or of no religious faith recover from terminal situations which may or may not be miracles. I recall how Fr. Padre Pio was canonized in modern times. What had he done? He bilocated, levitated and all sorts of other amazing feats. Sorry, but this can make people like me question the whole process. It can make assertions that are out of tune with the world today, which dismisses such things as superstition. I know we don't want to hear this, but that's the response of much of the world.
 
I was disappointed. I really believed Pope Benedict was taking the Church in a Traditional direction, but with the new Assisi and now the beatification, it is obvious that the status quo will be maintained.

That’s my unqualified opinion. Yours?
I loved him and he radiated holiness and goodness to me.

And anyone so devoted to the Blessed Mother cannot be bad. 😉

Like what he did or not, he was still the Successor to St Peter and so is Benedict. If the Church declares this pope a Saint, he is one. (And I have asked his intercession several times and it’s worked!)

I too will celebrate on May 1st.

Remember that he also helped keep the Church away from the most liberal elements. (Women priests, for one thing…)

Trust the Holy Spirit. He knows what He’s doing.
 
I know that I am out of line, but this rushing to make Popes saints troubles me. Pope John Paul II was a courageous man and he certainly was a kind soul who traveled far and wide to promote the faith. However, I personally would wait much longer before declaring him a saint. To begin with, I view him as not altogether a positive force within the Church. I have been influenced by the column of Fr. McBrien of Notre Dame whose column has appeared for years in our local paper. Fr. McBrien has charged that JPII fortified the ‘old guard’ within the Church by appointing very conservative men as Bishops. I also have some doubts about what appears to be his theology - also very conservative. I believe in a ‘big tent’ church where reasonable people are permitted to disagree,
Code:
 It seems to me that this process of making saints is questionable. Two miracles. Many people of other or of no religious faith recover from terminal situations which may or may not be miracles. I recall how Fr. Padre Pio was canonized in modern times. What had he done? He bilocated, levitated and all sorts of other amazing feats. Sorry, but this can make people like me question the whole process. It can make assertions that are out of tune with the world today, which dismisses such things as superstition. I know we don't want to hear this, but that's the response of much of the world.
Some believe Pope John Paul II to be too “conservative;” others consider him too “liberal” (whatever those terms mean). I guess we all look at him through our own glasses. I will celebrate May 1st as a happy day when the Church recognizes what is already a fact in Heaven.
 
I was not particularly happy about everything that went on under the pontificate of Blessed John Paul II, or even everything under Benedict XVI (Assisi again, for example). But John Paul II’s sanctity is undeniable, his beatification merely the approval of a cult that already exists and which is not going to go away, and despite a couple of things Benedict really has taken the Church in a new, stronger direction.

I did not take John Paul’s kissing of the Koran as a statement that it was the Word of God. Frankly, I would never have drawn that conclusion. He kissed it for the same reason he kissed the earth every time he stepped off an airplane - he was a man in love with God who knew the meaning of gratitude. By kissing the Koran given to him as a gift he showed gratitude to those who gave it to him, and if in the process he also honored the (human) wisdom and goodness in that book then so be it. If you want to understand what he was saying, first learn to grow to his sanctity and then you will understand him. Otherwise, you have only yourselves to blame when he scandalized you.
 
I agree with you, baylee. Also, in the post you are addressing, apples and eggos were being compared. Forgiveness is a basic of our faith, it is addressed in our Pater Noster. Showing the type of approval of error, even if the error is mixed with truth it is error all the same, is a novelty to say the least.
I disagree somewhat my dear friend. Baylee was pointing out the public reaction that might occur from someone seeing a picture of the Pope kissing the Koran. We don’t know why he did it and all we can do is speculate. My point is that there are many other things the Pope did that we do not have to speculate as to why he did and to which the attention of the public ought to be drawn.

Since I don’t know the circumstances surrounding it or why the Pope did what he did, I will not call it an error. I will call it what it is: an action that could have multiple interpretations and which I don’t understand (use the search feature - this is yet another topic discussed ad nauseum).

What we do know for certain is that unlike those who give lip service to their faith, the Pope showed the world by his actions how Christ calls us all to be. If you are going to somehow judge the actions of the Pope, balance the perceived negative with the proven positive is all I am saying.
 
No, you did not claim otherwise, I didn’t mean to give that impression. Only to clarify why I don’t believe the beatification of the previous Pope is a good thing at this time in light of the controversies. WWII has been over now for more than sixty years and that era’s Popes’s actions and motivations are still being debated.
As we have discussed, the miracle has been proven to the pope’s satisfaction. The miracle took place now. Do we ask God to wait?
So regarding the Pope’s beatification, I am again disconcerted because of the speed at which it is being done. Before Pope JP II the Church took a long time, something like 50 to 100 years to beatify a saint. How many Popes have come and gone and left this practice intact. Then JP II decided to change the rules and speed up the process. Yet we must trust the leadership of the Pope and have faith that the Holy Spirit guides him. So no matter how I feel I put my faith in God and can accept the beatification of JP II despite the scant amount of time for consideration.
John Paul did not change the policies for canonization. He did three things to speed up the process. 1) He introduced modern technology into the process. In the old days everything had to be done in person and everything had to be done in handwriting. Today, the committee members can communicate via email, telephone, faxes, web-conferences. 2) He reduced the number of miracles from three to two. This number is arbitrary. The three miracles were introduced in 1917. I don’t remember what they were before then. In the 1200s they required five miracles and no pope every followed that rule. That’s why it was dropped. 3) John Paul demanded that alleged miracles be investigated promptly and not put on the back burner. He demanded that they either be proven or dismissed, but he did not allow stalling. This was a problem of the old Congregation for the Causes of the Saints. They stalled and were very disorganized.
As someone else stated, I have never heard of St Francis using the Koran as a teaching tool or calling the words within it “holy”. Do you happen to have a source for this? Besides, I still think quoting things that are inline with Catholic teaching is a lot different than kissing the book as a whole. I don’t have a problem with pointing out any similarities between our religions. However, according to Catholic teaching, there was no new revelation after the apostles; therefore, the Koran is not God’s word. When the leader of the Catholic Church kisses it, it gives the impression that it is.
We, the Franciscans are the proof that you want. We’re talking about our founding father. What we know, we know because our earliest brothers, especially Brother Illuminato, who went to Egypt with Francis wrote about it in his journals now in the Franciscan Archives at the Motherhouse in Assisi.

Francis called holy words in the Koran that reflect Truth. Truth is found in many places and in many writings. Do not confuse this with the subsistence of truth. The fullness of Truth subsists only in the Catholic Church. The key word here is “fullness”. The Church has never said that some Truth cannot be found in other faiths. Much of what the Koran says about Mary is what we Catholics have believed long before the founding of Islam. What the Koran says about charity, marriage, fidelity, prayer, judgment, sin, heaven and hell and the 10 Commandments are the same things that Christians and Jews believe. These words are holy, regardless of what book you find them in.

When Francis went to Egypt he saw it practiced by the Muslims. He came back and commented how we Christians should be ashamed that the Infadels knew how to be humble and we had forgotten the true meaning of humility. He then proceed to write his famous admonition of absolute obedience, without questioning, even when authority is wrong, because it is pleasing to God and man. The only time that one may disobey is when commanded to commit an action that the Church has identified as a sin.
I know that I am out of line, but this rushing to make Popes saints troubles me. Pope John Paul II was a courageous man and he certainly was a kind soul who traveled far and wide to promote the faith. However, I personally would wait much longer before declaring him a saint. To begin with, I view him as not altogether a positive force within the Church. I have been influenced by the column of Fr. McBrien of Notre Dame whose column has appeared for years in our local paper. Fr. McBrien has charged that JPII fortified the ‘old guard’ within the Church by appointing very conservative men as Bishops. I also have some doubts about what appears to be his theology - also very conservative. I believe in a ‘big tent’ church where reasonable people are permitted to disagree,
Code:
 It seems to me that this process of making saints is questionable. Two miracles. Many people of other or of no religious faith recover from terminal situations which may or may not be miracles. I recall how Fr. Padre Pio was canonized in modern times. What had he done? He bilocated, levitated and all sorts of other amazing feats. Sorry, but this can make people like me question the whole process. It can make assertions that are out of tune with the world today, which dismisses such things as superstition. I know we don't want to hear this, but that's the response of much of the world.
The Church does not make saints. The Church simply proclaims to the world what God has done. If God performs a miracle through the intercession of a saint and it can be proven, the Church has a duty to proclaim it. It would be unjust to God, the saint and the people of God to keep the Glory of God hidden under a bushel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
QUOTE=maurin;7458809]I was disappointed. I really believed Pope Benedict was taking the Church in a Traditional direction,
I still believe that he is taking us in a Traditional direction. The fall-out from the hierarchy all over the world about the Latin Mass, the uproar concerning the Pope’s attempts to re-connect with the SSPX, the beating he took for his quote of an historical critique of Islam “as overly reliant on force in spreading its theology”…all of these moves, well he is being persecuted for them. He can’t reverse almost 50 years of extreme liberalism in a few years.

As for the “new Assisi”, I think (& this is just my opinion) that he wants Christian religions to come together…not in Dogma or teaching…but to prevent persecution of Christians by the Muslims.

"Egypt recalled its Vatican ambassador on Tuesday for consultation in Cairo after Pope Benedict urged governments in predominantly Muslim countries to do more to protect Christian minorities.
**The head of the Roman Catholic Church condemned on Monday attacks on churches that killed dozens of people in Egypt, Iraq and Nigeria, saying they showed the need to adopt effective measures to protection religious minorities. **
That’s my unqualified opinion. Yours?
About JP2’s beatification…more tomorrow. I’m really tired tonight.
 
Jesus and the Apostles seemed to convert many people by telling them they and their actions and beliefs were wrong. I said earlier I beleive JPII has made many mistakes and that does not seperate him from any other Pope, there was only One who was ever flawless, and although he is being rushed into beatification I think its a worthy cause.

ed
Sure, but did Jesus rub it in their faces that they were wrong? Case in point, the Samaritan woman at the well.
 
I disagree somewhat my dear friend. Baylee was pointing out the public reaction that might occur from someone seeing a picture of the Pope kissing the Koran. We don’t know why he did it and all we can do is speculate. My point is that there are many other things the Pope did that we do not have to speculate as to why he did and to which the attention of the public ought to be drawn.

Since I don’t know the circumstances surrounding it or why the Pope did what he did, I will not call it an error. I will call it what it is: an action that could have multiple interpretations and which I don’t understand (use the search feature - this is yet another topic discussed ad nauseum).

What we do know for certain is that unlike those who give lip service to their faith, the Pope showed the world by his actions how Christ calls us all to be. If you are going to somehow judge the actions of the Pope, balance the perceived negative with the proven positive is all I am saying.
in regards to your last sentence, I believe I have done that severaltimes on this thread, no? And again that returns me to my point: when I am asked to balance the negative with the positive pub lic actions of His Holiness, can one justly use the adjective heroic?
 
Sure, but did Jesus rub it in their faces that they were wrong? Case in point, the Samaritan woman at the well.
Driving the moneychangers from the Temple? Calling the Pharisees “snakes” and “brood of vipers?” Telling Peter, “Get behind me, Satan.”

Yeah, sometimes he did “rub it in their faces.”
 
As we have discussed, the miracle has been proven to the pope’s satisfaction. The miracle took place now. Do we ask God to wait?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Especially in the example I used, it seems that sometimes, yes, we do. Especially in the example of Bl Duns Scotus that you used, sometimes yes we do. For a long time.

Sincerely, maurin
 
Pope Saint
John Paul Two
The Great!

One day … 👍
Saint John Paul II, I think so. If the miracle of the healing of the nun with Parkinson’s disease was well-researched, If the prayers of John Paul II cured this woman, there’s no doubt he’s in heaven & answering the prayers of the faithful to intercede for those of us who ask him. After all, the Church doesn’t make a saint, it simply recognizes a Saint.

The title Pope John Paul the Great? I don’t think so. I’ve always believed that title had to do exclusively with a man’s Papacy. Pope John Paul was very significant in the collaspe of the Soviet Empire. He was a charismatic man who, in this age of “multi-media”, with his vitality & charm, gave the non-Catholic world a totally new view of Catholicism. His suffering was great & his example of courage in the face of horrifying illness left a great impression on me, personally.

However, his “non-handling” of the large number of homosexuals entering the priesthood, his tendency to ignore any reports of sexual abuse of children (think Marcial Maciel Degollado) & his reluctance to curb the abuses in the Liturgy, truly affected the Church in a negative way. Since the title “the Great” following a Pope’s name has to do, solely, with his time as Christ’s Vicar on earth…well, IMO. JPII left a lot of messes for Pope Benedict to clean up.
 
I am sad that canon law was abrogated. The Pope was hardly passed on five months before his gloriously-reigning successor started the canonisation process. You’re supposed to give it five years after death. The only saint I know of who was canonised before five years had gone by was St. Anthony of Padua, two years after death (there are probably more). St. Anthony did not have interfaith prayer with Albigensians. Why should this principle not apply across the world, and forever?
True, Padre Pio, who bore the stigmata for much of his life, died in 1968 & was not beatified until 1999. I, too, wish that they’d taken a little more time investigating the miracle, time for emotion to die down. However, it’s been called a miracle, so I guess we need to accept God’s timetable.
 
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