What do traditionalists think of LifeTeen Masses' appeal?

[mosher]

You know what I find to be really sad about the whole issue of Life Teen Masses and Neocatechumanl Masses and Charismatic Masses and all the other innovative Masses and groups that we have these days? They can all be celebrated just about anywhere that a Priest is willing and available. None of them normally bear much resemblence to the Pauline Rite Mass except in bits and pieces and they all incorporate elements that the Pauline Rite rubrics don’t call for. They are all permitted in the great spirit of inclusiveness and making everyone feel welcome. You know modern ways of imaging God and all.

Yet the Traditional Rite that served the Church for so long, that created so many Saints and laid the groundwork so that these other Rites can even exist, is treated in most places like an unwelcome stepchild, shunted off to a corner where hopefully no one will notice and maybe just maybe one day go away forever. It is ridiculed, put down, satirized and spoken of in the most denigrating terms you can imagine on other forums and even on this one, yet that treatment it is generally accepted and is apparently considered OK and allowable.

Why is that? Something just doesn’t seem right about the whole situation. It really doesn’t.

I think that this has to do with the theory behind the Novus Ordo. Remember according to theory the Tridentine Mass was not thrown out. Rather the Novus Ordo is the Tridentine Mass. The Novus Ordo is supposed to only be a revision of the Missale Romanum. Granted it is a dramatic change but an organic outgrowth none the less. I think it is for this reason that at some level there is a different way of looking at the Tridentine Liturgy as opposed to some of the innovations that have happened. While the innovations seem to be modifications of the current liturgy a return to a previous Missal would not conform to liturgical tradition.

However, if it is shown (which I think it has) that the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Liturgy are in fact two different and distinct forms of liturgy then the above reasoning does not hold water.

 

[VociMike]

Should sacred music–specifically chant–have pride of place in the liturgy…absolutely. Should 21st century catholicism make greater effort to recover this musical patrimony–absolutely.

Is LT bad because it uses modern music in the liturgy…no!

Which leads to the obvious question, do LT Masses ever use the music that is to have pride of place? Or is LT a modern music ghetto with the gates locked from the inside? If so, why?

 

[Keith_Strohm]

Which leads to the obvious question, do LT Masses ever use the music that is to have pride of place? Or is LT a modern music ghetto with the gates locked from the inside? If so, why?

VociMike,

That is a really thoughtful question (as well as obvious). The answer to that is probably more towards being locked (though I don’t consider modern music bad at all). We started introducing more traditional music during the Psalm responses and in particular around adven and lent.

Keith

 

[mosher]

VociMike,

That is a really thoughtful question (as well as obvious). The answer to that is probably more towards being locked (though I don’t consider modern music bad at all). We started introducing more traditional music during the Psalm responses and in particular around adven and lent.

Keith

The question should not be about modern music which is not necessarily a bad thing as modern music strictly defined is music written in the modern age. However, the question should be about Sacred Music. There is “classical” music that is not sacred music and is not fitting to the Liturgy just as there is modern music that is not fitting to the Liturgy as it is not Sacred Music.

This is the distinction and unfortunately a vast majority of the music that is modern cannot be classified as Sacred even if it is religious music. So, at Life Teen I would say that it is heavy on the religious music but very light on the sacred music.

 

[palmas85]

Palmas85,

As a member of the LT steering committee at my last parish during the time of the change, I can tell you that the LT program officially required all LT parish programs to stop gathering arounds the altar. In addition to the requirement, they provided suggestions on how to make that change in each parish.

Just because there are some priests and liturgists who refused the requirement does not make LT a bad thing–nor is their refusal to stop gathering around the altar the LT program’s fault.

Heck, at my last parish the LT Director and I had to stand firm about the change, because the pastor and pastoral staff were going to dig in their heels and not stop gathering around the altar.

Standing around the altar is not encouraged by the LT program, nor did they make an official change and then wink knowingly at all the folks who were going to continue gathering around the altar.

Keith

That all sounds very good and in fact the Life Teen leaders appear to be quite orthodox and faithful. Pretty much the same situation that existed within the Jesuit Order after Vatican II. In letters, cables, documets public posture etc., the Order appeared to be orthodox and conforming with the wishes of the Holy Father in every regard.

They were not, In fact, all the while they were professing complete devotion to the Holy Father and the Church they had embarked on a great quest to find new meaning for the Order. In this quest they ignored and outright disobeyed mandates from Rome. In fact many of the Jesuits involved believe and stated amonmgst themselves that Rome had no business interfering with their internal affairs. The battle and it was a battle, raged on for years. Pope Paul VI would issue orders to the Jesuits, their Superior , Father Arrupe woul then disseminate what ever, if any part of the Popes missives he deemed approproate to the Society at large He would also send out letters and other documents which were so nebulous thay could be seen as pledging complete support for the Vatican as well as completely thumbing your nose at it.In essence they did whatever they wanted to without any regard to what the Holy Father said. There are those who believe that this situation was so physically painful and stressful to Pope paul VI that it hastned his death.

The situation got so bad that finally Pope John Paul II had to remove the two highest ranking officers in the Jesuit Order and replace them with his own hand picked selections.

The point is an organization or group can appear to be completely orthodox in every respect, yet not be. I’m not saying that Life Teen is in that situation, yet its actions and the continued abuses that persist in it’s presentation, how does that sound, of many of its’ Masses certainly appear to be of that mindset.

 

[Patrick2340]

At our local parish kids are not allowed to make their Confirmation unless they are a part of LifeTeen. That explains the large numbers of teens who show up to those Masses here.

 

[palmas85]

At our local parish kids are not allowed to make their Confirmation unless they are a part of LifeTeen. That explains the large numbers of teens who show up to those Masses here.

Well, yes it does. I wonder how many other DRE’s have instituted similar policies?

 

[Keith_Strohm]

Well, yes it does. I wonder how many other DRE’s have instituted similar policies?

Why is it so hard to believe that some programs–like LT–are just popular and/or successful? The existence of LT throughout the country isn’t due to some conspiracy of DRE’s forcing down people’s throats.

BEfore my last parish started a LT program, there were probably 20-30 teens who came regularly to youth group. Now, 7 years later, they have well over a 100 teens in regular attendence of the Life Nights (more who come regularly to mass).

Attribute that to catering to the lowest common denominator, dumbing down the richness of the Catholic faith, or whatever other aspersions you want to cast. The reality is that those 100 teens are solidly committed to their faith, are learning orthodox truths, have a solid devotional life, and are growing in their appreciation for the gift that is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

They are becoming role models to their peers, active within community service and in the parish, and they are evangelizing the adults in that parish to grow more deeply in their own faith.

LT isn’t a magic bullet. The principles of solid youth ministry have to apply to the implementation of the LT program. But when done correctly, LT has a transformative effect on the lives of the teens who participate.

I know some people will just say that these teens aren’t receiving a solid grounding in their faith, that they are being entertained and not formed, and that once the LT kool aid wears off they’ll just go back to the way that they were, but the evidence just doesn’t indicate that.

Keith

 

[palmas85]

Why is it so hard to believe that some programs–like LT–are just popular and/or successful? The existence of LT throughout the country isn’t due to some conspiracy of DRE’s forcing down people’s throats.

BEfore my last parish started a LT program, there were probably 20-30 teens who came regularly to youth group. Now, 7 years later, they have well over a 100 teens in regular attendence of the Life Nights (more who come regularly to mass).

Attribute that to catering to the lowest common denominator, dumbing down the richness of the Catholic faith, or whatever other aspersions you want to cast. The reality is that those 100 teens are solidly committed to their faith, are learning orthodox truths, have a solid devotional life, and are growing in their appreciation for the gift that is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

They are becoming role models to their peers, active within community service and in the parish, and they are evangelizing the adults in that parish to grow more deeply in their own faith.

LT isn’t a magic bullet. The principles of solid youth ministry have to apply to the implementation of the LT program. But when done correctly, LT has a transformative effect on the lives of the teens who participate.

I know some people will just say that these teens aren’t receiving a solid grounding in their faith, that they are being entertained and not formed, and that once the LT kool aid wears off they’ll just go back to the way that they were, but the evidence just doesn’t indicate that.

Keith

OK, then do away with the LT as you call it and see if these committed youth still come to Mass. If they do, then obviously the program was successful. If they don’t and I would dare to bet a lot of them won’t, then they are really coming for the experience of being amongst their peers more than glorifying God.

Lets put it to the test and prove your point.

 

[netmilsmom]

Lets put it to the test and prove your point.

Puts me in the mind of Solomon!
Very wise!

 

[cathsem]

OK, then do away with the LT as you call it and see if these committed youth still come to Mass. If they do, then obviously the program was successful. If they don’t and I would dare to bet a lot of them won’t, then they are really coming for the experience of being amongst their peers more than glorifying God.

Lets put it to the test and prove your point.

OK, the test of which you speak is after the teens graduate from high school. Do they keep up their faith in college?

And the results are in! They indicate…

A mixed bag. Some remain faithful (including some who enter religious life or the seminary) and others fall away, choked by the temptations of the age. It is like the parable of the sower, in LT, the Gospel is preached but some refuse to listen, others listen for a while but the pressures and allures of the world choke the seed before it has a chance to get well rooted, and some listen and it takes root and grows into a beautiful lifelong Catholic life.

LT isn’t the only factor in how it turns out. The teens’ family life, what college he/she goes to, and the Catholic campus ministry program that one finds once there. It is naive to expect a teen that lives in a practically atheistic home to come to a love of Christ and the Church when they are surrounded by an atmosphere antithetical to faith. The same applies at most secular colleges where campus ministry programs are generally deplorable, to be charitable.

I have two friends who were in LT with me who went to a large secular university in my state, went to Mass at the Catholic center there and were refused Holy Communion because they made a sign of reverence to Our Lord. (The priest said it was a show. ) Later, they asked him questions that they had about purgatory and other particular Catholic doctrines, and he could not answer their questions. (We discussed these doctrines from time to time in LT, but we cannot possibly cover everything in depth without having classes–which no one would come to.) Therefore, they found a more welcoming, more coherent, evangelical Protestant organization, and left the Catholic Church. This is a grand tragedy, but to blame LT is unfair; priests who refuse to explain and stand up for the faith did the damage here.

Many more of my friends, now well into the 20s, some even married, are still regular Massgoers and have cultivated a mature, faithful relationship with God.

 

[mosher]

OK, the test of which you speak is after the teens graduate from high school. Do they keep up their faith in college?

And the results are in! They indicate…

A mixed bag. Some remain faithful (including some who enter religious life or the seminary) and others fall away, choked by the temptations of the age. It is like the parable of the sower, in LT, the Gospel is preached but some refuse to listen, others listen for a while but the pressures and allures of the world choke the seed before it has a chance to get well rooted, and some listen and it takes root and grows into a beautiful lifelong Catholic life.

LT isn’t the only factor in how it turns out. The teens’ family life, what college he/she goes to, and the Catholic campus ministry program that one finds once there. It is naive to expect a teen that lives in a practically atheistic home to come to a love of Christ and the Church when they are surrounded by an atmosphere antithetical to faith. The same applies at most secular colleges where campus ministry programs are generally deplorable, to be charitable.

I have two friends who were in LT with me who went to a large secular university in my state, went to Mass at the Catholic center there and were refused Holy Communion because they made a sign of reverence to Our Lord. (The priest said it was a show. ) Later, they asked him questions that they had about purgatory and other particular Catholic doctrines, and he could not answer their questions. (We discussed these doctrines from time to time in LT, but we cannot possibly cover everything in depth without having classes–which no one would come to.) Therefore, they found a more welcoming, more coherent, evangelical Protestant organization, and left the Catholic Church. This is a grand tragedy, but to blame LT is unfair; priests who refuse to explain and stand up for the faith did the damage here.

Many more of my friends, now well into the 20s, some even married, are still regular Massgoers and have cultivated a mature, faithful relationship with God.

And this is an issue currently being worked on. My parish is a regional contact for LT and we have developed a new program for Seniors in High School and Freshmen and Sophomores in College that is what I would call a transition program. We call it After Life. The purpose of After Life is take the teachings of the Church and go one large step deeper with a focus on the truths of the faith as opposed to the experience of the faith which is a thing that the LT program does well. However, seeing the mixed results after they leave a program we saw that the teens needed to take an active ownership of their faith and so we have created this program. Instead of every week we meet every other week. It is in a more intimate setting and the focus is on the talk. One could think of it as a type of Theology on Tap. Surrounding the talk is prayer before and meditation after the talk and some “Praise and Worship” (I hate that term personally) and then we break. So it is not time intensive but the time spent is intensive. This will be coupled by doing works of mercy as a group etc.

But for a person who does not necessarily trust the Orthodoxy of the LT program I would suggest that you just order their material and review it yourself. You will find that it is completely in line with Holy Mother Church.

 

[palmas85]

OK, the test of which you speak is after the teens graduate from high school. Do they keep up their faith in college?

And the results are in! They indicate…

A mixed bag. Some remain faithful (including some who enter religious life or the seminary) and others fall away, choked by the temptations of the age. It is like the parable of the sower, in LT, the Gospel is preached but some refuse to listen, others listen for a while but the pressures and allures of the world choke the seed before it has a chance to get well rooted, and some listen and it takes root and grows into a beautiful lifelong Catholic life.

LT isn’t the only factor in how it turns out. The teens’ family life, what college he/she goes to, and the Catholic campus ministry program that one finds once there. It is naive to expect a teen that lives in a practically atheistic home to come to a love of Christ and the Church when they are surrounded by an atmosphere antithetical to faith. The same applies at most secular colleges where campus ministry programs are generally deplorable, to be charitable.

I have two friends who were in LT with me who went to a large secular university in my state, went to Mass at the Catholic center there and were refused Holy Communion because they made a sign of reverence to Our Lord. (The priest said it was a show. ) Later, they asked him questions that they had about purgatory and other particular Catholic doctrines, and he could not answer their questions. (We discussed these doctrines from time to time in LT, but we cannot possibly cover everything in depth without having classes–which no one would come to.) Therefore, they found a more welcoming, more coherent, evangelical Protestant organization, and left the Catholic Church. This is a grand tragedy, but to blame LT is unfair; priests who refuse to explain and stand up for the faith did the damage here.

Many more of my friends, now well into the 20s, some even married, are still regular Massgoers and have cultivated a mature, faithful relationship with God.

Not at all. Im saying drop it now, today, and see if they continue. I know that once they are away from it as they grow older many drop away, because they were not by and large committed to the faith anyway, but to the experience itself, the bonding or for lack of a better word the esprit de corps. While no doubt the overall lack of reverence at many churches and exhibited by many Catholics including Priests is most damaging, the best way to combat that I feel, is with strong ORTHODOX teaching and grounding in the fundamentals of the faith. Not modern music, handholding and mainly being around your peers.

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

Why then are they [LifeTeen Masses] so popular?

Because they conform to the world, which is always popular.

 

[CRW]

Palmas85,

As a member of the LT steering committee at my last parish during the time of the change, I can tell you that the LT program officially required all LT parish programs to stop gathering arounds the altar. In addition to the requirement, they provided suggestions on how to make that change in each parish.

Just because there are some priests and liturgists who refused the requirement does not make LT a bad thing–nor is their refusal to stop gathering around the altar the LT program’s fault.

Heck, at my last parish the LT Director and I had to stand firm about the change, because the pastor and pastoral staff were going to dig in their heels and not stop gathering around the altar.

Standing around the altar is not encouraged by the LT program, nor did they make an official change and then wink knowingly at all the folks who were going to continue gathering around the altar.

Keith

As a test of your Life Teen program I suggest the following:

On Friday, December 8, do a head count at each Mass of members of the Life teen present. On Saturday, do a head count of how many Life Teens are at confession. On Sunday, do a head count on how many Life Teens receive Holy Communion. When you have your Life Teen meeting discuss this with them. I actually did this once. About 10 percent actually attended - School night, buzzy at school dances, part time job, had a date, etc. Not a serious sin, many do not attend, etc.

I actually had a Life Teen tell me that to commit a mortal sin is no problem because that is the reason we have confessions.

I could go on with their dress (semi porn show on the altar), behavior, etc but that is another post.

 

[jc-servant]

I’d sure like to se the statistics that bear out these type of Masses actually bring anyone in the faith let alone vocations.

I have not finished reading this entire thread because quite frankly I get tired of reading all of the negative generalizations and bashing about LT mass from people who have perhaps seen one badly done or just heard about LT mass from others. I have not done a study of the entire church so I can only provide antedotal evidence of the fruits of a good, orthodox LT program. The music at mass may not be for everyone all of the time since it ranges from old Latin to contemporary, but the teaching is rock solid.

I’m providing a link to show you our young men discerning to become priests and monks after coming through LT. All of them are quite orthodox including the 2 sons of Dr. Marcellino D’ Ambrosio. In large part as a fruit of our LT ministry our parish became the 1st (and still only) Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration parish in our diocese on 5/28/05 to pray for more religious vocations from our parish.

stannparish.org/fform/formations/9/information.html?id=354

 

[cathsem]

I have not finished reading this entire thread because quite frankly I get tired of reading all of the negative generalizations and bashing about LT mass from people who have perhaps seen one badly done or just heard about LT mass from others. I have not done a study of the entire church so I can only provide antedotal evidence of the fruits of a good, orthodox LT program. The music at mass may not be for everyone all of the time since it ranges from old Latin to contemporary, but the teaching is rock solid.

I’m providing a link to show you our young men discerning to become priests and monks after coming through LT. All of them are quite orthodox including the 2 sons of Dr. Marcellino D’ Ambrosio. In large part as a fruit of our LT ministry our parish became the 1st (and still only) Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration parish in our diocese on 5/28/05 to pray for more religious vocations from our parish.

stannparish.org/fform/formations/9/information.html?id=354

Praise the Lord!

I can second your experience. I am a vocation to the diocesan priesthood that was first nurtured and developed because of LT. I firmly believe in my heart of hearts that I would not have heard the call had I not been involved in LT. I cannot emphasize enough the strong emphasis on Eucharistic Adoration and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist in LT.

 

[The_Augustinian]

For me, the very concept of having a Catholic mass catered specifically for one age group is troubling. Catechesis for the youth is good and all, but I thought the whole purpose of the Divine Liturgy was to unite everyone.

Youth groups and youth prayer services are great. World Youth Day is good as well. But I wonder if the teens who attend these masses attend with their parents at the regular mass? Still, I was never personally invovled in these groups so this is my very misinformed opinion.

 

[agapewolf]

I am a 32 year old music director of a parish. Before this job, I was a youth minister for 5 years. I became an orthodox devout practicing Catholic through LifeTeen AS AN ADULT YOUTH MINISTER.

Fruits from LifeTeen I have seen first hand:
I have seen this program keep teens from not only leaving the church, but the same teen enter the seminary and become a priest. I have seen MANY sisters in different (conservative) orders take vows who were once in LT programs, and discerned their vocation in a LT program.Teens bring their parents back to church. The Lifeteen Mass at our parish has all ages…. Not just teens and their parents, but our biggest fan, a 90 year old man.

At the lifenights, we teach chastity, catechesis, OBJECTIVE morality, modesty, a healthy prayer life (sub prayer groups study saints, in depth bible studies, ministerial life, evangelization in schools, and doctors of the church).

Cardinal Arinze met with LifeTeen leaders before the new GIRM, and told LT they actually could apply for an indult for the practices in the Mass. He asked them not to because of misunderstandings more than anything.

LT stresses IMMEDIATE obedience. The training brings in professors and has a working releationship with FRANCISCAN UNIVERSITY OF STEUBENVILLE

There are abuses everywhere, NOT just LT Masses. Please do not judge lifeteen on a poor quality “LT” mass somewhere. Just as you wouldn’t judge the church on the sinful members. JPII the great said that the youth were their own separate culture. It’s not about “dumbing” down the liturgy. Opposite that, it requires HIGH QUALITY in everyting.

Unfortunately, there will be musicians that think it’s a performance. The Musicians at my parish pray hard, and all they want is to get the people to sing louder. The drums are done tastefully (by the way, the only instrument we have today mentioned in the bible is the drums), and the utilization of them creates tension in the music that pulls the people’s voices to be louder. I plan music from ALL time periods. Please remember at one time, chant was new. Harmony was scandalous. Before that, the singing that took place at the wedding at canaa was more guttural and dissonant. Tradition is important, however, we shouldn’t exclude that musicians today have very valuable additions to Catholic repertoire. You may not prefer that style of music….thats ok. But that doesn’t discredit it.

My participation in LifeTeen as an adult has helped me to love the Mass for itself. I love a quiet daily Mass. I am not afraid of silence and go to holy hours in our quiet adoration chapel because of experiences like the Steubenville youth conference and LifeTeen retreats with adoration and music. Before, adoration used to be something I dreaded cause you just knelt a really long time and got bored. (in grade school). Now it’s an amazing experience of the Lord.

We had adoration and praise and worship music at our parish one night… 3 6th graders came up to me after that one night and asked to sign up for a slot of our perpetual adoration chapel.
PRAISE GOD!!!

All of this is to create an atmosphere that is practicing what we preach. If we love the Lord like we say we do, let’s be passionate. Let’s put forth our best in everything.

 

[Corki]

At our local parish kids are not allowed to make their Confirmation unless they are a part of LifeTeen. That explains the large numbers of teens who show up to those Masses here.

I know of two parishes in my immediate area that do the same thing. What is really sad is that at one of these, attendance at LT Mass is required for Confirmation. Kids are not allowed to attend the Life Nights if they do not attend the LT Mass. There is no CCE for teens and the Life Night is not required, just the LT Mass. The reason given is that since so many families have to travel to get their kids to Mass, the adults and younger children can’t be expected to just wait around during the Life Night time. The only catechesis these kids receive is what they get from their parents and the homilies at Mass.

I really want to believe that there are good LT programs out there. Unfortunately, the good ones seem to be about as rare as a reverently celebrated NO Mass in Latin.