What do traditionalists think of LifeTeen Masses' appeal?

[Matt33]

Agapewolf,In my exerience we are not in agreement here, I have those same books and I did say that there is little done with saints, and this is true, they are reduced to a footnote. You should educate yourself on DTS, It is a great program though it can be a little heavy for some, just as LT is a little light for some. You need to think not so much in black and white but in the overall flavor of life teen. In my experience the sky is blue.

 

[Matt33]

You make some good points. As a teenager, I HAD to go to daily Mass in the high school I attended. We all lined up & processed into the chapel & if one of the nuns noticed that you were missing, you were in TROUBLE!! It was the traditional Latin Mass & no one ‘dumbed it down’ for us, I wouldn’t have had it any other way & I would have been insulted had anyone tried.
We were expected…after 8 prior years of daily Mass while in elementaty school…to know every part of the Mass & be able to say most of the Latin prayers, the Agnus Dei, the Sanctus, the Credo, etc. & we knew the Latin Mass responses totally. After all, I was 13 yrs. old when I started high school & took Latin the first two years, as many did in those days.

I don’t think that teenagers have changed that much. By that age they shouldn’t need to be entertained at/ “drawn to” Mass & I don’t think they want to be.

When my own 4 started Catholicschool, there wasn’t a single teaching nun left in our city. I’d like to say it made no difference, it did. The children aren’t children anymore. In fact, the’re out of college. They all went away to the University & could have stopped going to Mass then, for no one was there to see. However, my youngest told me once that a friend of his asked him once why he still went to Church, since “no one would know” if he missed. His answer, “Because that’s what I do on Sunday morning”.

My experience with LT is one that is in agreement with what you have posted and quoted here. So I guess there are 3 of us that are wrong and will be discreditied as “just one opinion”

 

[NicPais83]

Well, children, or at least myself a few years ago, like to be challenged. It doesn’t have to be hard, and you don’t have to treat them as adults, but for kids, it’s considered cool to be doing what the adults do (which goes with the responsibility of the adult to show the kid the right thing to do instead of wrong). Now teens are at a funny age, and again, this was me about 5 years ago, where they hate being treated like kids, and rightly so! Teenagers are not children; things don’t have to be dumbed down for them.

When I was a kid, when I would ask why I have to wash my hands after using the bathroom, it didn’t satisfy me when the response was “because I said so.” You had to give me a reason, or else I might not do it. Fortunately, the habit stuck, but that’s because I had it explained to me why I was doing it. This is the same thing as the Mass. If you change it, then the kid gets used to his “fun” Mass, instead of the Mass. If you tell the kid he has to go to Mass “because I say so,” then it’s a chore with no real penalty attached to it except the temptation not to go.

 

[ethelzguy]

Heaven forbid, that the Church would do anything that might have “appeal” to anyone, except for the traditionalist crowd.

Beat them on the heads with Latin and the Baltimore Catechism, and if they don’t like it, off to Hades with them all…

I love the title of this thread…What do traditionalists think of LifeTeen Masses’ appeal?

Talk about putting a baseball on a tee and handing someone a bat…

 

[bkovacs]

Your average lifeteen Mass breaks any numbers of liturgical rules and is loaded with abuses. It is community oriented and seeks to be more “Teen” than sacred, giving it an intimate communal character. Obviously, this goes against everything traditionalists, or the Church for that matter, says the liturgy should be. But so many churches say their lifeteen masses are standing room only. I know that Bishop Dooher of Boston was given the position because of his success leading such a program and the amount of vocations the program drew. His Excellency seems to prefer street clothes too.

Could it be that liberal programs and priests are bringing about vocations, and that there’s something lacking in a Church that stands in the way of youth ministers and the charismatic renewal? Is it really the profane entertainment Masses that bring men to the priesthood?

They should be banned!!!. Teens should be introduced to the beauty of the Church. Like Gregorian Chant, Gallican chant, Tridentine Mass, even Anglican Use Masses. Keep the Happy Go Lucky Novus Ordo out. Keep liberalism out of their lives as well!!.

 

[Matt33]

I don’t think that the BC needs to be used or even the TLM but what I see is a program that goes out of its way to be out-standing… I mean that in a not so good way. A program that almost defies the real meaning of “Catholic” Universal.
Sometimes the seething disdain of the Traditional Crowd turns me off to the moderates. It makes me side with the traditional peoples. I Just wish Life teen took it’s time to be uniform, and formed young Catholic identities. While some rail against the use of latin or anything that even remotely gives off the whiff of tradition, some kids would like it, These kids are being denied just s much as the pre life teen kids were denied thier rock and roll holliness.

 

[agapewolf]

Sometimes the seething disdain of the Traditional Crowd turns me off to the moderates. It makes me side with the traditional peoples.

. While some rail against the use of latin or anything that even remotely gives off the whiff of tradition, some kids would like it, .

Again, I completely disagree. No one that I know involved in the LT crowd has ever had “seething disdain” . In fact, among the musicians I get together with weekly, we celebrated the motu proprio as we realize its a big church. I’ve never ever experienced such a harsh referrerl as such. I’ve never heard anyone from the LT crowd rail against the use of latin. In fact, I put latin in all of my masses at my parish where I am music director, and we got angry letters from 50-60 year old adults. On the other hand, at the LT mass, they dealt with it fine.

However, I HAVE experienced the opposite. Traditionalists constantly are saying how profane, irreverant, and disgusting my prayer is. That turns me off to the trads.

 

[Matt33]

Again, I completely disagree. No one that I know involved in the LT crowd has ever had “seething disdain” . In fact, among the musicians I get together with weekly, we celebrated the motu proprio as we realize its a big church. I’ve never ever experienced such a harsh referrerl as such. I’ve never heard anyone from the LT crowd rail against the use of latin. In fact, I put latin in all of my masses at my parish where I am music director, and we got angry letters from 50-60 year old adults. On the other hand, at the LT mass, they dealt with it fine.

However, I HAVE experienced the opposite. Traditionalists constantly are saying how profane, irreverant, and disgusting my prayer is. That turns me off to the trads.

I agree with your ENTIRE post. I side with you. You need to relax. Your post and mine are frustrated with the same things. Just different perspectives. the problem however is the same. Godd for you at your Parish like I said before, it sounds as if you are truly blessed. It aint like that everywhere. (In my Experience)

 

[Dauphin]

Heaven forbid, that the Church would do anything that might have “appeal” to anyone, except for the traditionalist crowd.

That’s just it. The liturgy isn’t about “appealing” to anyone; it’s not about entertaining ourselves. When we try to turn the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into a form of entertainment, no good will be done. In the words of the Holy Father:

“Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.”

When the Mass becomes just another form of entertainment, and priests try increasingly hard to “keep the interest” of the people, the entire meaning of the liturgy is lost. In the end, no LifeTeen Mass will be able to compete with a rock concert or night at the club. An attempt to make the Mass more entertaining and appealing than the attractions of the world is certain to fail.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Yes, I compared the teens at my parish LifeTeen mass to some of the “oh so holy” posters HERE…gotcha.

No, I will not name names. Their posts speak for themselves.

They do, ethelzguy.

Teens go to LT because they feel like they belong and are loved. They are among their own community, just as teens tend to be independent on their own, having their own community to pray with is important. LT encourages the teens to bring prayer and faith into their families and become closer to them.

Teens go to LT because they feel like they belong and are loved? At regular Masses they don’t? Among their own community? The members of the Church Militant are ‘their own community’, so once again this is something they can accomplish at any Mass. Masses other than LT don’t encourage teens to bring prayer and faith into their families?

THe last part of your statement is just absolutely ridiculous… TLM sacrifice has more merit because it’s Mass doesn’t feel good? ARe you serious? really? TLM Mass has no emotion therefore it must be better? This is ridiculous. They can unite their “sacrifice” just as easy in either Mass. Maybe for some teens, easier in LT

I think you and others have missed the point. Today, everything is about how we feel. Everybody ‘feels’ a certain way, and because of the society in which we live, how you ‘feel’ is a perfectly justifiable answer to anything. Feeling is different than fact.

 

[agapewolf]

Teens go to LT because they feel like they belong and are loved? At regular Masses they don’t? Among their own community? The members of the Church Militant are ‘their own community’, so once again this is something they can accomplish at any Mass. Masses other than LT don’t encourage teens to bring prayer and faith into their families?

.

actually, the whole program lifeteen started because a priest heard from a teen who started attending a protestant church that he felt loved there and not at the Catholic church. LT provides a community to the teens.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Feelings again. Always feelings.

 

[ethelzguy]

Feelings again. Always feelings.

What is wrong with feelings?

Are we robots?

Is our desire to worship not a “feeling”, as opposed to “instinct” like food and shelter?

If we are worshipping by “instinct” alone, we might as well be worshipping a golden calf.!!!

 

[CassiusLonginus]

No, I’m talking about the type of ‘feelings’ that are emotionally, rather than (theo)logically based. The type of feelings that are present before logic is employed etc. Of course, feeling is natural, but we can’t solely rely on our instincts and feelings, which is why we, unlike lesser creatures, have analytical brains.

My initial reply (feelings) was in regard to what agapewolf said:

Teens go to LT because they feel like they belong and are loved.

You see, people put too much emphasis on ‘feelings’ in the wrong places. My point was to ask whether the reality of the matter coincided with the ‘feelings’ of the teens. In other words, are their feelings really valid, or are they just the perceived result of turbulent times in their maturation? Do the teens truly not belong, and are they not loved at a Mass if it’s not the LT Mass??? Get what I’m sayin’? Their ‘feelings’ dictate that they do not belong, and that they are not loved which is absurd, and is why I said “feelings again. Always feelings”. As I said earlier, there is ‘feeling’ and there is fact. Teens need to grow up and face fact, not ‘feeling’. Why coddle them? Why don’t we just let them in on the secret, known as ‘being a grown up’ and let them mature into people worth knowing, instead of remaining children in spite of their physical adulthood.

 

[agapewolf]

You see, people put too much emphasis on ‘feelings’ in the wrong places. My point was to ask whether the reality of the matter coincided with the ‘feelings’ of the teens. In other words, are their feelings really valid, or are they just the perceived result of turbulent times in their maturation? Do the teens truly not belong, and are they not loved at a Mass if it’s not the LT Mass??? Get what I’m sayin’? Their ‘feelings’ dictate that they do not belong, and that they are not loved which is absurd, and is why I said “feelings again. Always feelings”. As I said earlier, there is ‘feeling’ and there is fact. Teens need to grow up and face fact, not ‘feeling’. Why coddle them? Why don’t we just let them in on the secret, known as ‘being a grown up’ and let them mature into people worth knowing, instead of remaining children in spite of their physical adulthood.

You obviously do not know teenagers very well. There are teens that are going to mass already, love the Lord, and all that. Thats great. That’s not necessarily who LT is ministering to.

Yes, many many times, teens are actually “told” that they do not belong by the very nature of the people at other masses. Feelings are NEVER EVER EVER invalid. They may be reactionary, or their perception of what is really going on might be off, but feelings are not ever invalid. It is so obvious that you do not know teenagers. It is NOT absurd for teens to feel unloved, especially if actions, words, etc around them are giving them that idea. THEY ARE TEENAGERS!!! We need to get them to church in the first place… which is what LT is trying to do. THEN once relationships are built and we get them going to Mass, then we tell them “to grow up”. Go to a teenager who is sitting in the back of church at a mass whose posture says they don’t want to be there, and they aren’t participating, and go tell them to “grow up” and then let me know how it goes.

 

[Cat]

You obviously do not know teenagers very well. There are teens that are going to mass already, love the Lord, and all that. Thats great. That’s not necessarily who LT is ministering to.

Yes, many many times, teens are actually “told” that they do not belong by the very nature of the people at other masses. Feelings are NEVER EVER EVER invalid. They may be reactionary, or their perception of what is really going on might be off, but feelings are not ever invalid. It is so obvious that you do not know teenagers. It is NOT absurd for teens to feel unloved, especially if actions, words, etc around them are giving them that idea. THEY ARE TEENAGERS!!! We need to get them to church in the first place… which is what LT is trying to do. THEN once relationships are built and we get them going to Mass, then we tell them “to grow up”. Go to a teenager who is sitting in the back of church at a mass whose posture says they don’t want to be there, and they aren’t participating, and go tell them to “grow up” and then let me know how it goes.

Thank you for this sensible post.

I think a lot of times, people base their opinions on teenagers that they know instead of on the majority of teenagers.

There are always those shining stars among teenagers who seem to be a dream come true. They act like adults, they like adult things, and they prefer the company of adults to that of their peers.

But these are the EXCEPTIONS!

There are plenty of opportunities for these kids in regular Masses (OF and TLM). God bless them and hopefully they will continue on the straight and narrow path.

We need to reach out to all the other kids who don’t like Latin, who think church sucks, who aren’t even sure that they believe in Jesus, and who are moody, belligerent, rebellious, idealistic, energetic (or exhausted), cynical–in others words, typical teenagers.

I think that many parents would be grateful to see their kid attend ANY Mass, including LifeTeen! And if LifeTeen can help a kid get interested in the Lord again, then I’m sure many parents would willingly pay the expenses for life for the rock band and kiss the feet of the Life Teen leaders in the parish! I’m serious. To see your teenager heading down the path to destruction and be helpless to stop him/her, and then to see them come back to God and to the family–it’s beautiful. Why would you want to stop this for the sake of some subjective version of “reverence,” especially since the Catholic Church has NOT banned Life Teen and in fact, approves of it.

 

[agapewolf]

BTW Cat,

Your vocations director was down here (St. Louis) for the Steubenville youth conference. We had over 200 guys come down for the “who is thinking about a vocation to the priesthood this weekend”. He and our new vocation director were standing up there together in tears of joy. This was during the closing Mass for the weekend.

 

[ethelzguy]

What eludes me, is why…when the Pope expands the use of the TLM to appeal to the traditionalist crowd, and possibly foster a return of the SSPX, that this appeal is a “good” thing…while programs that appeal to other Catholics is “bad” or “flawed”.

There is clearly a double standard being applied by some.

 

[LRThunder]

What eludes me, is why…when the Pope expands the use of the TLM to appeal to the traditionalist crowd, and possibly foster a return of the SSPX, that this appeal is a “good” thing…while programs that appeal to other Catholics is “bad” or “flawed”.

There is clearly a double standard being applied by some.

The problem itself is not with the LifeTeen itself, but how the Mass was celebrated within the program. It was open to too many abuses, which is what most traditionalists had a problem with.

 

[CradleCath]

My experience with LT is one that is in agreement with what you have posted and quoted here. So I guess there are 3 of us that are wrong and will be discreditied as “just one opinion”

“Just one opinion” is all any of us have when discussing our faith.
You mentioned that the “saints have been reduced to a footnote” was interesting. After Vatican II, the saints & the Virgin Mary, have been reduced to mere afterthoughts throughout the Novus Ordo Church. If you’ll notice, in the Roman Canon of the TLM., (Eucharistic Prayer #1 in the new rite>)they are highly praised, many of them by name:

“In union with the whole Church we honor Mary, the ever-virgin mother of Jesus Christ our Lord and God. We honor Joseph, her husband, the apostles and martyrs Peter and Paul, Andrew, (James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude; we honor Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian) and all the saints. May their merits and prayers grant us your constant help and protection.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)”

The problem is, that the priests…in my area, at least…do not use Eucharistic Prayer #1, but prefer the shortened version (EP#2)
& use it 100% of the time. Not the same at all.