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Vonsalza
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I think where many, many folks would challenge you is whether celibacy is a choice or a spiritual gift.
If its the latter, as many suspect, your model breaks down.
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If its the latter, as many suspect, your model breaks down.
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anon65111186
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I suggest you do a little research because you don’t have all the facts.
Birth control and abortion are well documented in Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt.
The Ebers Papyrus (1550 BC) and the Kahun Papyrus (1850 BC) have within them some of the earliest documented descriptions of birth control, the use of honey, acacia leaves and lint to be placed in the vagina to block sperm.
Another early document explicitly referring to birth control methods is the Kahun Gynecological Papyrus from 1850 BC. It describes various contraceptive pessaries, including acacia gum, which recent research has confirmed to have spermatocidal qualities and is still used in contraceptive jellies. Other birth control methods mentioned in the papyrus include the application of gummy substances to cover the “mouth of the womb” (i.e. the cervix), a mixture of honey and sodium carbonate applied to the inside of the vagina, and a pessary made from crocodile dung.
Who claimed they were the same, not me. Off topic.
I’m glad you said probably, because you realize you are guessing and have no certain knowledge about it. Like I said, do your research. Start with Saint Jeremone, John Chrysostom, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus of Rome, Augustine of Hippo and you will find the answer.
A recent document from the Vatican
It doesn’t say since the appearance of X form of contraception, the Church has taught, it says always. This is not bluffing, it is the reality.
Jesus warned us about not following his way “the path is wide that leads to destruction, and many are those who take it.”
You think those early Christians had easier economic realities? You are lucky to live in the 21st century.
It is tenable, just don’t have sex if you are tempted to use contraception.
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Socrates92
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Great! We’ll hunt you first.
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jackfitz316
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Can we launch a space crusade?
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JimG
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“Yet this is not the full story. To the contrary, in fact. Across the globe, people are having fewer and fewer children. Fertility rates have dropped by half since 1972, from six children per woman to 2.9. And demographers say they’re still falling, faster than ever. The world’s population will continue to grow–from today’s 6.4 billion to around 9 billion in 2050. But after that, it will go sharply into decline. Indeed, a phenomenon that we’re destined to learn much more about–depopulation–has already begun in a number of countries.”
From Newsweek
From Newsweek
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JamalChristophr
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We should probably make a new topic for that. 
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jackfitz316
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Just did that.
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Rau
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This is universally accepted isn’t it?
Are you thinking that onanism is not contraception?
NFP is allowed when there is good cause. That could be essentially the whole marriage.
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Rau
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Texas with a population of 7.6billion - you’re comfortable we could live peacefully. You’re comfortable the viability of that is proven?
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LateranBasilica
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Every soul is created by, and belongs to God.
Every soul is a joyous gift from God.
We are not parasites on the face of God’s Earth. We are here due to the gift of our Creator.
To rail against humanity in terms of population is to rail against the wisdom of God.
We are called though baptism to be A People of God. A community. We trust in God’s plan for salvation.
Every soul is a joyous gift from God.
We are not parasites on the face of God’s Earth. We are here due to the gift of our Creator.
To rail against humanity in terms of population is to rail against the wisdom of God.
We are called though baptism to be A People of God. A community. We trust in God’s plan for salvation.
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Vonsalza
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That last one was a joke, right?
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Benadam
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There’s plenty of protein out there. We just don’t think of it. Insects are abundant and easy to farm.
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Rau
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No, I recall one of the Popes saying exactly that.
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thistle
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The world is not overpopulated and never will. Declining birth rates are seeing that. It is estimated by experts that the population will peak at around 11 billion by the end of this century then decline and stabilise.
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Rau
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Certainly if people choose to reduce the birth rate to approximate the death rate, population growth will vanish. One wonders what would happen absent contraception.
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Vonsalza
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When it comes to what popes say about contraception, we have quite a range of statements to choose from - as many critics of Francis would be happy to point out.
Of course, Francis isn’t alone.
Of course, Francis isn’t alone.
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Vonsalza
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It’s worth pointing out that this stabilization assumes the even wider proliferation of various methods of bc.
When these studies cite regions becoming more “developed” with subsequently slowing birthrates, they assume that developed regions slow down for similar reasons.
And they do. It just isn’t “catholic friendly”. If you asked the social scientists "isn’t it great that these future people apparently practice more abstinence? " they’d look at you like you grew a horn.
When these studies cite regions becoming more “developed” with subsequently slowing birthrates, they assume that developed regions slow down for similar reasons.
And they do. It just isn’t “catholic friendly”. If you asked the social scientists "isn’t it great that these future people apparently practice more abstinence? " they’d look at you like you grew a horn.
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steido01
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There’s considerably more than that. That simply what we produce right now.
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Vonsalza
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If there is one, my error is that I consider onanism and barrier methods to be one and the same because the “stuff” comes out.
If that’s unreasonable, then I’ll concede on that point.
Most of the Catholic pundits on the issue in the history of the Church do. And I’m not arguing exclusively with you - else this would be a pm rather than a forum post.
But I’m genuinely glad that you also make the distinction. There are a great many on this forum that don’t - from personal experience.
I have.
Chrysostom (one of my two favorite Church fathers) is actually one of those that mistakenly conflate contraception and abortion.
“Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility, where there is murder before birth?”
Just goes to show what we already know - being a Church Father still doesn’t put your words above scrutiny, does it?
My counter question still remains -
How can a conservative Catholic read this and still be morally comfortable practicing NFP when each “marital act” therein is only rendered if the probability of conception is theoretically biologically impossible?
That’s a serious question. It seems very much like Catholics are trying to find a way to have their cake and eat it too that doesn’t also seem capricious and whimsical. The fact that it’s also advised as being a temporary solution (rather than perpetual) is, again, a red flag that is enormously difficult to ignore.
And, to be frank, your inability or refusal to provide any rational treatment of that issue beyond appealing elsewhere is hugely telling.
Again, I wouldn’t be so fast to equate a current magisterial position with “Jesus’ way”, given that history has shown them capable of being in error whereas Christ cannot be.
Because of the legal minimums pertaining to care that western families must meet, today’s American children are probably competitive as the most expensive to raise in recorded history.
A policy that blindly ignores a prime biological drive in the human species simply is not tenable. And I really do say that as charitably as I can.
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anon65111186
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Yes, because it is reasonable they do so. Although not exactly the same, they both do one thing - eliminate the potential for future life. One with potential humans (contraception), the other with living humans. Contraception and abortion, whether you like it or not, is in the same category - closed to life.
The individual Fathers are not personally infallible, and a discrepancy by a few patristic witnesses does not harm the collective patristic testimony.
A teaching of the Fathers is only necessarily to be followed when all the Fathers are of one mind “eam unquam nisi juxta unanimum consensum Patrum accipiam et interpretabor”
The very earliest teaching from the Didache (Twelve Apostles, 1st century, says “You shall not practice birth control, you shall not murder a child by abortion, nor kill what is begotten”. The twelve apostles knew Christ and His teaching, and had the Holy Spirit.
You misunderstand NFP, that is your problem. Whereas contraception eliminates the possibility of life altogether in the mind of the couples, NFP is to be practiced understanding that every act is open and potentially life giving. NFP does not render biologically impossible, there is no barrier, no element in NFP which disturbs the natural biology.
Funny you say that, in the Magisterial document Humanae Vitae, the Pope painstakingly reaffirms that he is exercising the Authority of Christ. It is not possible to be in error, it is infallible teaching.
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