What do we do when there are too many people on the planet?

[hoping4more]

In short, we are fine.

here is a map of how much room we need for solar power generating fields to supply the worlds current needs. its the little black dots
http://www.ez2c.de/ml/solar_land_area/

better built cities, more sustainable farming, and people not being wasteful idiots and we can keep our population growing for the next couple hundreds years without even blinking

 

[Vonsalza]

Sterilisation not. And knowing the poster I do know that was a tongue in cheek. If I actually put my thoughts to writing further on this subject… well maybe I should rather not.

Take care

I bet this free account that some bans are probably going to get passed around on the topic.

Get a little distance from this. You’re going to change no one’s mind.

-A lesson I’m too big a fool to internalize.

 

[Rau]

The fact that it’s also advised as being a temporary solution (rather than perpetual) is, again, a red flag that is enormously difficult to ignore.

If a couple have a proper cause to avoid a pregnancy, and their situation remains just so, what do you understand are there options and or obligations?

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

The fact that it’s also advised as being a temporary solution (rather than perpetual) is, again, a red flag that is enormously difficult to ignore.

If a couple have a proper cause to avoid a pregnancy, and their situation remains just so, what do you understand are there options and or obligations?

Excellent, excellent question.

It’s one NFP doesn’t seem capable of permanently answering based on what I read about it.

 

[Rau]

Contraception and abortion, whether you like it or not, is in the same category - closed to life.

That’s a very arbitrary grouping - to what theological truth does that give rise? Note they fall under different commandments. Does that imply something?

 

[Gorgias]

It’s one NFP doesn’t seem capable of permanently answering based on what I read about it.

And ABC is capable of a permanent answer?

If you wanna get down-right Jesuit, there might be some couples where total sterilization is appropriate, thanks to the doctrine of double effect.

Yeah, but those are cases in which sterility isn’t what’s being sought. Big difference.

 

[Rau]

One ends a life conceived, the other prevents the conception of life - like NFP.

Taking (directly) innocent life is surely evil. Choosing not to do what might create life is surely not. Contraception on the other hand…is in debate…

 

[Rau]

Upon identifying when, exactly, she’ll ovulate, the couple keenly abstains from sex during her fertile periods and then participates in sex during periods where fertilization should be biologically impossible - and then orthodox Catholics proclaim this practice as actually being oriented toward life.

This practice is oriented to avoiding a pregnancy which is not condemned by the church. We are not required to orient our actions toward creating life at every opportunity, nor to blind random outcomes. All that is condemned is corrupting the marital act.

 

[Vonsalza]

You gentlemen carry the day.

Cheers.

 

[anon65111186]

No sir. This isn’t a misunderstanding. This is a hole in your education on the female aspects of human reproduction that your largely Catholic education has not filled (unsurprisingly, if I may be so bold to add).

If a woman isn’t ovulating, she can’t get pregnant.

-Full Stop-

This is why NPV tries to estimate that time and then avoid sexual contact for that time plus roughly a week prior to account for the length of time sperm can survive post-coitus.

The reason pregnancy can still occur isn’t because God miraculously makes it happen. It’s because you get sloppy one month and have sex a little to close to ovulation, or your wife has some drug or stress-induced hormonal event that changes the day on which she ovulates.

In a word - error. Just like how women get pregnant on all the other forms on contraception.

1. We were educated in pre-cana classes before marriage which include scientific research on female biology. When we decided on the Billings method, we had coach explain the whole thing, and shared scientific articles on how it works, I think I know a thing or two.
2. Yes, a woman can’t get pregnant if she isn’t ovulating. Thank you captain obvious but that is not the issue. If you think any method of NFP determines ovulation with 100%, then you don’t know NFP. As you admit, it is based on estimation. A woman can get pregnant far outside of her ovulation time. It’s not about being sloppy, or some drug or stress related event, it can be factors even science does not understand fully.

It isn’t error if you understand there is always a chance, and are open to pregnancy even at the peak of infertility. If you aren’t open to pregnancy at all, then don’t have sex, I think St. Paul would agree with that.

Sure. If you wanna get down-right Jesuit, there might be some couples where total sterilization is appropriate, thanks to the doctrine of double effect.

That’s another issue but I know that sterilization is condemned.

It sets up the problem to which you seem to lack a convincing and consistent answer since humans seem to obviously lack a total-abstinence toggle-switch.

Humans lack a natural capacity for heaven and God, that is why they need supernatural grace. That is why you have prayer, the Sacraments to strengthen you to be abstinent. The problem is not of my making, it is the fallen nature of man. If you relied on God a little more you would be surprised how faithful you could be to NFP. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.

You come across as one who doesn’t do NFP, is not married, or currently uses contraception. I may be wrong though. If this is the case, pray to God and speak to God about this. It isn’t for me to convince you, but for you to pray about with God.

Post-industrial, salaried man living in a city has no such luxury. His capacity to support additional children is much, much more fixed.

I’m in the same boat, yet here I am using NFP. I suggest you pray.

 

[Rau]

Never impossible, that is where you misunderstand, it is always possible and that it the key point. To do NFP, you must only do it when there still exists a chance, a possibility that God can use to produce life.

Where do you find that idea in catholic teaching?

 

[Rau]

Excellent, excellent question.

It’s one NFP doesn’t seem capable of permanently answering based on what I read about it.

Then I can assist you. They have the option to continue avoiding pregnancy by abstinence, be that complete, or periodic guided by knowledge about fertility (=NFP). That might last for the remainder of their marriage. They have the obligation not to contracept their sexual acts.

 

[Augsal]

Of course I am not saying everyone to live in Texas. I thought I was making it obvious enough that the world is big enough to sustain the population sizes you are imagining.

 

[JimG]

Many cities with high population densities tend to be popular places to live. New York City has a population density of over 8 million people per square mile, according to this listing:

List of United States cities by population density - Wikipedia

 

[Rau]

Of course I am not saying everyone to live in Texas. I thought I was making it obvious enough that the world is big enough to sustain the population sizes you are imagining.

What size is that? Is it arbitrarily large?

 

[IWantGod]

I understand what you are saying, but clearly the human race could grow to a size that the planet simply couldn’t maintain. It’s not impossible.

 

[JimG]

In 1840, there were 327,000 people living in New York City. Obviously it could never hold more than 8 million. And yet it does.

 

[IWantGod]

Just because people are wrong about their estimations, does not mean that an infinite number of people can exist and be sustained on the planet earth. At some point there will be too many for the earth to sustain…

 

[Rau]

I understand what you are saying, but clearly the human race could grow to a size that the planet simply couldn’t maintain. It’s not impossible.

Should the population grow far enough, it is likely feedback loops will emerge to restrain that growth. Those loops could include: fear, wealth effects, pollution, famine, war and so on.

 

[IWantGod]

Lol so we should hope for war and famine to save us. LOL. Yay for war and famine, what would we do without you.