What do Ya'll non-Catholics think of this:

[Tracyms1974]

Ever heard of the word “Mana”? You should really try reading your bible. Supposed to have happened everyday.

I would imagine that the only reason that God gave the Israelites Manna from Heaven is because if they were going to get out of Egypt like they had to do, their earthly limitations required them to eat. So, God gave them something to eat. I guess you could call this a miracle of necessity. The feeding of the five thousand was the same kind of miracle, I suppose.

It reminds me of those stories you hear about people being rescued by angels. I believe that angels make those special rescues because the person being saved has something more that they have to accomplish while they are here, and God knows that. If there is NO human assistance around, He sends angels to help. Neat, huh?

Tracy

 

[AgnosTheist]

I guess you could call this a miracle of necessity.

Jews needed a “miracle of necessity” when they were being fed to the gas chambers. Had Mary come to the rescue, a huge proportions of them would have converted to catholicism. Would also serve as a strong evidence in support of catholicism. but there is nothing to show but these masked “incorruptibles”. an old leathery host of obscure origins, and the shroud of turin which is evidently fabricated.

 

[Tracyms1974]

Jews needed a “miracle of necessity” when they were being fed to the gas chambers. Had Mary come to the rescue, a huge proportions of them would have converted to catholicism. Would also serve as a strong evidence in support of catholicism. but there is nothing to show but these masked “incorruptibles”. an old ileathery host of obscure origins, and the shroud of turin which is evidently fabricated.

Well, it’s like the old saying, “Why does God let bad things happen to good people?” There really is no good answer to that question. But one difference between the flight from Egypt and the Jewish Holocaust is that in the Jewish Holocaust there was a lot more human involvement, unfortunately *evil *human involvement. So it can be argued that Hitler and his German army were responsible for the deaths of all those Jews, certainly not God. God respects ALL life. But God cannot interfere with free will either. The Israelites made the free choice to leave Egypt. God simply helped them out. The Nazis chose to single out the Jews for extermination. For whatever reason, God let this happen, I can’t tell you why. You think I wouldn’t like the current holocaust of unborn babies everywhere to come to an end? Of course I would. But it’s up to God to decide if and when the problem has become so bad that He is willing to request another “Fatima-like” sighting/miracle on the part of Our Blessed Mother to speak to this atrocity of abortion. Until then all we can do is pray for a national change of hearts and minds.

As for the miracles being real or not real, if I’m not mistaken, the Church does not require us as Catholics to believe that these relics are real. It’s not what you call dogma. Or, that could just be the sightings of Mary, I’m not sure. However, I personally choose to believe that they are real because God is completely interested in our unfaltering belief in Him and His Goodness, and to me, these are signs of that “interest.” He’ll do what He has to to prove His Existence, Love, and Care of us, His creatures.

Tracy

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Let’s remember our charity please.

God bless-

Rachel

 

[theistgal]

Do you Believe in the Real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist ?

Yes, I do. I am a Byzantine Catholic (getting ready to become one anyway!), and whenever I receive the Eucharist, I must affirm that “I believe and profess that what I am about to receive is truly the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity” of Jesus Christ.

I also believe that these visions of the Eucharist as chunks of bloody flesh may, indeed, be disconcerting (to say the least) to someone who doesn’t have a well-grounded understanding of Catholic theology and culture - and to jump all over someone for being honest enough to say so is not going to result in a lot of conversions, IMHO.

 

[theistgal]

Well then you are not a very good Catholic from your post. Anyone who finds this disgusting, is indeed a so called ‘Catholic’ in disguise.

Thanks for your opinion; however, I’d prefer to leave that up to Our Lord.

 

[Koopa]

see, you got fooled as well. take this one from bbc:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7364228.stm

Placed in a glass coffin, Padre Pio was dressed in a brown robe and his was covered in a life-like silicone mask.

like i said, the better to fool people.

in this day & age, buddhists are still more honest. they show their incorruptibles as they are. no masks. no deceptions.

So our friend was mistaken. It happens.

How exactly do you call this a deception? How exactly did BBC get the information that that was a wax mask? Did they go up and poke the face of Padre Pio? No. The Church openly explains that some incorruptible bodies are placed under wax gloves or masks, such as St. Bernadette.

 

[Margarite]

Please do not mock our beliefs, but Catholics, don’t be offended, they don’t have the privilege of believing what we believe.

You ask why only Catholics would be allowed to test the host that became flesh. Well, I don’t know that that is true, but if it is true, there would be a simple explanation.
If you believed that a piece of bread had become God, why would you allow those who did not believe to touch and poke? A person who believed would be much more reverent, and respectful and would treat the host as God should be treated.
Now, if, as I believe, non-Catholics were allowed to test the host, I am sure that they were asked to do so with the up-most respect and were probably watched closely by Catholics to make sure that they did not desecrate the host in any way.

St. John Vianney is incorrupt, he was one of the Church’s greatest saints. The saints who were found incorrupt, were not mutilated as that Buddhist monk was, and they were not preserved, they weren’t put into the ground with stuff in them or around them to make them that way, some of the saints were buried in very wet locations and later when they were dug up, they were found to be incorrupt despite the horrid conditions.

Catholics do not need to believe this, God just gave these things to us to help us on our journey, to help us believe in him and in his Church, but maybe also to help convert some.

We don’t worship the saints, we just use them as guides, as people to follow. They lived holy lives, and we try to model ourselves after them.

You asked why these saints and miracles are not on non-Catholic websites. Well, would you put a miracle from another faith on your website? I mean that would be really weird.

You say that an incorrupt body is weird and gross. Why? I mean I find corrupted bodies to be gross! I mean corruption is a result of sin, so we should hate corruption, and love incorruption. I can understand why you find the host that turned into a heart gross. If I wasn’t Catholic, I probably would too, but if you look at it from the Catholic point of view, it sure isn’t gross, it is beautiful.

I have to go, but I will post later.

 

[AgnosTheist]

The Church openly explains that some incorruptible bodies are placed under wax gloves or masks, such as St. Bernadette.

they had to, or risk embarassment. But even with the footnotes thats still not very honest… promoting incorruptibility behind a mask. for there would always be people like CathDefender who immediately concludes that the mask is the actual face. I almost became a believer myself, had i not looked deeper into it.

 

[Koopa]

What a wonderful post, margarite :harp:

I think it is also worth mentioning that these wax masks are only used because the face blackens and the eyes and nose sink in. This is NOT from corruption. The mask is not supposed to be deceptive. The very fact that there is a face there to put a mask on after 300 years is miraculous!

 

[AgnosTheist]

The very fact that there is a face there to put a mask on after 300 years is miraculous!

natural mummification is not uncommon. everyone would consider it a miracle if it was as perfect as the day it was buried.

 

[adstrinity]

I’d like to point out two things:

1. The question was posed, “What do Ya’ll non-Catholics think of this”? and HashemEchad answered. There is no reason to mock him or get angry at him for answering this question. If anybody meant to show him how this really is a miracle of God or convert him, it was gone about the wrong way. I rather like his answer that he finds is disturbing and disgusting and sees Catholics as being obsessed with death and blood (this is how I remember the post, forgive me if I got it wrong or am misrepresenting), because WE (Catholics) then see how we are seen. We do not have the fullness of the truth in non-faith and non-morals. We have our own zeitgeist and it would do us well to see others. I wish other non-Catholics would answer this question, I really do. Thank you, HashemEchad for answering and defending your position.

1. This was not the ONLY Eucharistic miracle.

therealpresence.org/eucha…/lanciano.html

dsanford.com/miraclehost.html

members.aol.com/bjw1106/euchmir.htm

zenit.org/article-12933?l=english

therealpresence.org/eucha…r/holland.html

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/blanot.html

therealpresence.org/eucha…r/bolsena.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_miracle

 

[estesbob]

Interesting pictures here.

associatedcontent.com/article/210418/incorruptible_bodies_dead_bodies_of.html?image=77754

 

[AgnosTheist]

1. This was not the ONLY Eucharistic miracle.

Thank you. In the bible there were 3 kinds of miracles:

1. Miracles that were meant to help people in need.
2. Miracles that were meant to punish people.
3. Miracles that were meant to convince non-believers. And these were given for the actual examination of the disbelievers. Like Thomas.

or a combination of those.

So what kinds are the alleged miracles of the host? If that includes #3, then why is it witheld from public examination?

 

[HashemEchad]

I’d like to point out two things:

1. The question was posed, “What do Ya’ll non-Catholics think of this”? and HashemEchad answered. There is no reason to mock him or get angry at him for answering this question. If anybody meant to show him how this really is a miracle of God or convert him, it was gone about the wrong way. I rather like his answer that he finds is disturbing and disgusting and sees Catholics as being obsessed with death and blood (this is how I remember the post, forgive me if I got it wrong or am misrepresenting), because WE (Catholics) then see how we are seen. We do not have the fullness of the truth in non-faith and non-morals. We have our own zeitgeist and it would do us well to see others. I wish other non-Catholics would answer this question, I really do. Thank you, HashemEchad for answering and defending your position.

I don’t mean to offend anyone here, Catholic or non-Catholic, so with that disclaimer, let me tell you how I honestly felt/thought years ago, when an offline Catholic (seeking to convert me) gave me a book called “The Incorruptibles” by Joan Carroll Cruz (at least I think that was her name.)

She made me promise to read the book, and I agreed to because I didn’t want to hurt her feelings. But truthfully, I had no real interest in it.

I have to honestly tell you that reading the book, along with the pictures in it, made me sick to the very pit of my stomach. I got partly through it and had to stop.

My initial gut response (which I never verbalized until now) was, “Gosh what a morbid religion this is.” (I read this book after this same woman also gave me info on the alleged miracle of Lanciano, Italy, which is how I’d first heard of it.) I also know of the blood of St Januarius, that supposedly congeals on his feast day (or something like that.) Again, it all reeks to me of some sort of weird blood-cult obsession.

I’m sorry, but it really does not have on us non-Catholics the impact some of you hope it will. It often does the opposite and turns us off.

And speaking as a religious Jew, you must understand that in our religion, we are absolutely forbidden to ingest any manner of blood. This is why before we can eat meat, it must have all the blood drained from it, making it kosher. We are also taught to respect the dead, and not put their bodies on display, or use the blood from them as relics, etc. This is why we bury our dead so quickly, do not embalm, and show the utmost respect by not putting bodies on display as in a viewing.

This is also why for me especially, all this talk about incorrupt bodies, real skin hosts, and blood is really a turn-off. A Jew who truly knows their own Jewish faith could never be led to convert based on these kinds of things.

 

[AgnosTheist]

And speaking as a religious Jew, you must understand that in our religion, we are absolutely forbidden to ingest any manner of blood.

Wow, thats a breakthrough realization for me.

If the God of Moses is the same as the God of Catholicism, then how come the God of Moses had strictly forbidden the consumption of blood, only to be directly contradicted by Catholic beliefs that they should constantly drink the blood of Jesus, LITERALLY. Makes no sense.

 

[HashemEchad]

Wow, thats a breakthrough realization for me.

If the God of Moses is the same as the God of Catholicism, then how come the God of Moses had strictly forbidden the consumption of blood, only to be directly contradicted by Catholic beliefs that they should constantly drink the blood of Jesus, LITERALLY. Makes no sense.

But I thought everyone (esp. someone like you) KNEW that! Why do you think Orthodox Jews must eat only kosher meat? Not only must it come from a clean animal (Lev. 11), but it must be slaughtered in a ritually pure way, which includes taking out all the blood and fat. This is because God gave us the blood and fat to make an atonement with for our sins, when the Temple is standing.

But yes, you have a valid point, and I made that same point before, in other threads. This is one way I know its not the same God; because the God of Israel commanded Jews never to eat ANY manner of blood or fat, yet here we have the RCC which says Catholics must eat the flesh of their deity, and drink his blood. The Protestants (most of them, anyway) say its symbolic, which I could understand in light of what God commanded in the Torah.

(BTW have you ever heard of a British comedian named Eddie Izzard? I think you’d really enjoy his DVD entitled, CIRCLE.

 

[AgnosTheist]

But I thought everyone (esp. someone like you) KNEW that!

Yes everyone knows the fact that Jews dont eat blood.

We just failed to connect the contradiction between that jewish prohibition and Catholic drinking of Jesus’ blood.

(BTW have you ever heard of a British comedian named Eddie Izzard? I think you’d really enjoy his DVD entitled, CIRCLE.

thanks. i’ll look it up.

 

[theistgal]

Thank you. In the bible there were 3 kinds of miracles:

1. Miracles that were meant to help people in need.
2. Miracles that were meant to punish people.
3. Miracles that were meant to convince non-believers. And these were given for the actual examination of the disbelievers. Like Thomas.

or a combination of those.

So what kinds are the alleged miracles of the host? If that includes #3, then why is it witheld from public examination?

If you don’t mind the opinion of a bad Catholic , I’d say these miracles fall into category #4 - private revelation - like apparitions, visions and locutions (voices).

Now these may well have a very real and direct impact on the individual(s) actually experiencing it, and so shouldn’t be disparaged. But by the same token, people who aren’t directly involved in the experience shouldn’t be put down for not believing it. The Church does not require us to believe private revelations.

 

[Cathdefender]

see, you got fooled as well. take this one from bbc:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7364228.stm

Placed in a glass coffin, Padre Pio was dressed in a brown robe and his was covered in a life-like silicone mask.

like i said, the better to fool people.

in this day & age, buddhists are still more honest. they show their incorruptibles as they are. no masks. no deceptions.

I said St. Bernadette has a FILL IN, I didn’t say a full mask. Padre Pio bled for 50 years and was never infected. Now tell me something negative.