What do Ya'll non-Catholics think of this:

[HashemEchad]

I do not trust Wikipedia for any source because it is Anti-Catholic. St. Bernadette (which thank you for respecting the fact she is a saint when you wrote St.) Does not have a mask of wax. That is exactly what she looked like at the time of death. She has a fill in from wax. Why choose her and not the other THOUSANDS of saints that were martyred for Christ? St. Bernadette’s BODY is incorruptible.

“I do not trust Wikipedia for any source because it is Anti-Catholic”.

Funny…“righteousone” used to say exactly the same thing. In fact that was the first I’d ever heard someone make that claim about Wikipedia.

 

[Cathdefender]

“I do not trust Wikipedia for any source because it is Anti-Catholic”.

Funny…“righteousone” used to say exactly the same thing. In fact that was the first I’d ever heard someone make that claim about Wikipedia.

Hashem, I do not know you and I do not know what this obsession you may find with a rightous person or something. A lot of Catholics will not go by Wikipedia as it isn’t something new.
I have the utmost respect for the Jews, but you are making it very hard to like you.

 

[HashemEchad]

Hashem, I do not know you and I do not know what this obsession you may find with a rightous person or something. A lot of Catholics will not go by Wikipedia as it isn’t something new.
I have the utmost respect for the Jews, but you are making it very hard to like you.

If you truly are not righteousone, I apologize. But the similarities are just…oh, never mind, forget it.

 

[Koopa]

Wow, thats a breakthrough realization for me.

If the God of Moses is the same as the God of Catholicism, then how come the God of Moses had strictly forbidden the consumption of blood, only to be directly contradicted by Catholic beliefs that they should constantly drink the blood of Jesus, LITERALLY. Makes no sense.

The Catholic view (now I am no expert, especially in this matter ) is that the New Testament was the perfection of Old Testament law. Israel changed and so the laws God used to govern it changed. The first descendants of Abraham were treated strictly because they were, in reference to parousia, “young.” As the beginning of God’s plan of salvation unfolded, God governed us with certain laws that were to prepare us for laws in later times, in the time of Jesus Christ, as the plan of our salvation took a giant step. As we changed (not God), God changed the laws he governed us with.

But frankly, I would look at articles on this very site; it is a much more reliable source than Koopa.

 

[Koopa]

Thank you. In the bible there were 3 kinds of miracles:

1. Miracles that were meant to help people in need.
2. Miracles that were meant to punish people.
3. Miracles that were meant to convince non-believers. And these were given for the actual examination of the disbelievers. Like Thomas.

or a combination of those.

So what kinds are the alleged miracles of the host? If that includes #3, then why is it witheld from public examination?

The Sacred Host is open for public observance and prayer.

 

[Techno2000]

I don’t mean to offend anyone here, Catholic or non-Catholic, so with that disclaimer, let me tell you how I honestly felt/thought years ago, when an offline Catholic (seeking to convert me) gave me a book called “The Incorruptibles” by Joan Carroll Cruz (at least I think that was her name.)

She made me promise to read the book, and I agreed to because I didn’t want to hurt her feelings. But truthfully, I had no real interest in it.

I have to honestly tell you that reading the book, along with the pictures in it, made me sick to the very pit of my stomach. I got partly through it and had to stop.

My initial gut response (which I never verbalized until now) was, “Gosh what a morbid religion this is.” (I read this book after this same woman also gave me info on the alleged miracle of Lanciano, Italy, which is how I’d first heard of it.) I also know of the blood of St Januarius, that supposedly congeals on his feast day (or something like that.) Again, it all reeks to me of some sort of weird blood-cult obsession.

I’m sorry, but it really does not have on us non-Catholics the impact some of you hope it will. It often does the opposite and turns us off.

And speaking as a religious Jew, you must understand that in our religion, we are absolutely forbidden to ingest any manner of blood. This is why before we can eat meat, it must have all the blood drained from it, making it kosher. We are also taught to respect the dead, and not put their bodies on display, or use the blood from them as relics, etc. This is why we bury our dead so quickly, do not embalm, and show the utmost respect by not putting bodies on display as in a viewing.

This is also why for me especially, all this talk about incorrupt bodies, real skin hosts, and blood is really a turn-off. A Jew who truly knows their own Jewish faith could never be led to convert based on these kinds of things.

We are not Bound by Jewish Law so that doesn’t Prove the Miracle not True.

11 And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. 14 But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. 15 And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. Acts: 10

 

[HashemEchad]

The Catholic view (now I am no expert, especially in this matter ) is that the New Testament was the perfection of Old Testament law. Israel changed and so the laws God used to govern it changed. The first descendants of Abraham were treated strictly because they were, in reference to parousia, “young.” As the beginning of God’s plan of salvation unfolded, God governed us with certain laws that were to prepare us for laws in later times, in the time of Jesus Christ, as the plan of our salvation took a giant step. As we changed (not God), God changed the laws he governed us with.

But frankly, I would look at articles on this very site; it is a much more reliable source than Koopa.

Now, see, this again is a very real problem for a Jew who is knowledgeable of his faith. Because we know that God would never change the Torah He gave. The Torah was given at Sinai, and is permanent and unchangeable.

Christians say Jesus came to fulfill it, but how can that be when according to your beliefs, he changed it (God forbid)?

How do you change and fulfill at the same time? Some Christians tell me that Jesus kept the Law perfectly (actually, he didn’t, but I digress.) Well, WHY would he keep it perfectly only to do away with it? See how schizophrenic this all sounds to a non-Christian?

BTW since we’re on the subject of things like this, what does everyone think of this? No one’s mentioned it yet:

cicap.org/new/articolo.php?id=101014

 

[ufamtobie]

Funny you ask that; I was going to post one then figured it wasn’t worth it.

I was watching a documentary two days ago, about the current Dalai Lama, and how they found him.

Now, in Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism, they believe that the Dalai Lama is reincarnated again and again, so they go on a search for his newest incarnation.

They found him as a little boy, and miraculously, when presented with artifacts that had belonged to the previous Dalai Lama as well as meaningless ones, he picked out only the ones that had belonged to the previous Dalai Lama.

They had put lots of artifacts in front of him, but this teeny 3 (?) yr old boy knew just which ones to choose.

At first I was amazed, but then remembered what Judaism teaches, that even pagan religions can have miracles, but standing alone, they don’t mean anything.

Hashem,

Tell me is God still speaking to the Traditional Jew? Has there been any Miracles lately like in the Past?

Or has God abandoned the Jews again?

Ufamtobie

 

[HashemEchad]

Hashem,

Tell me is God still speaking to the Traditional Jew? Has there been any Miracles lately like in the Past?

Or has God abandoned the Jews again?

Ufamtobie

What kind of question is that?

Of course God still works miracles for us. In my personal life, He has worked many miracles, ones that I am still in awe of.

But we are smart enough to recognize that miracles are not the ONLY way God speaks to people. We are not wowed by mere miracles, because we recognize that even false religions can produce them (as in the case when Pharoah’s magicians made a stick turn into a snake, just as Moses had done.)

As for God abandoning the Jews, He will never abandon us.

But why not talk about the Catholic religion? Maybe God has abandoned them…look at the mess the church has been in since V2…Catholics have left in droves, and still are. And those so-called “eucharistic miracles”, they all seem to be from medieval times…

The Catholic church is hardly anywhere what it used to be, so maybe I could ask you the same question, hm?

 

[AgnosTheist]

The Sacred Host is open for public observance and prayer.

a very limited observance. we want to be like apostle Thomas, able to examine the evidence with our own hands.

 

[Cathdefender]

What kind of question is that?

Of course God still works miracles for us. In my personal life, He has worked many miracles, ones that I am still in awe of.

But we are smart enough to recognize that miracles are not the ONLY way God speaks to people. We are not wowed by mere miracles, because we recognize that even false religions can produce them (as in the case when Pharoah’s magicians made a stick turn into a snake, just as Moses had done.)

As for God abandoning the Jews, He will never abandon us.

But why not talk about the Catholic religion? Maybe God has abandoned them…look at the mess the church has been in since V2…Catholics have left in droves, and still are. And those so-called “eucharistic miracles”, they all seem to be from medieval times…

The Catholic church is hardly anywhere what it used to be, so maybe I could ask you the same question, hm?

God has not abandoned the Catholic faith in which he founded. My church has stood the test of time, it will never fall no matter what happens within. This has been proven for 2,000 years. While there is chaos and confusion in other churches, my church has authority given to Peter, 265 popes later with an unbroken link.
Your information is wrong. Apparently you are not on top of the Catholic faith to realize we have grown from 1.5 billion to 1.12 billion.
We are the leading religion in the world and still continue to grow.
As for your information of “medieval times” with the Holy Eucharist, you are wrong again. Some Eucharistic miracles were from this century.
I suggest you do some research about the Catholic faith to know what it’s all about. If you cannot do this, then there is nothing you know.

 

[Margarite]

a very limited observance. we want to be like apostle Thomas, able to examine the evidence with our own hands.

If, as I believe it is, the flesh is the flesh of God, why would we want people to go up and touch it. That is why many Catholics are against communion in the hand. That is GOD. I doubt that many people even within the church understand that. I mean, I don’t completely understand it, it is a mystery, but I do believe it.

And since I believe that that host is God, I fast for an hour before receiving it, I wait twenty minutes after receiving it before I eat anything else, I make sure that I have not committed any serious sin since my last confession, I sit prayerfully during mass thanking God for the gift of himself to me.

Mr. HashemEchad, you say that we are obsessed with blood and bodies. We are not, I can’t think of a single person who visualizes a bloody piece of flesh when they go to receive Holy Communion. I always visualized the priest holding the child Jesus in his hands and Jesus coming to me, and agreeing to be with me though I am sinful and unworthy. I then kneel and thank Jesus for coming to me. I am often distracted, but I wish that every time I receive Our Lord, I could pay attention, but I as I said, I am a sinful person, so I mess up. But I try to model myself after the saints, and every time I try to do better though, often I don’t.

As far as the saints whose bodies are exposed for people to see. What is so bad about that? It is just their bodies, just flesh, their soul is gone. The only reason why the Church does this is to show Catholics, and maybe sometimes non-Catholics, lets see how can I say this–
Let me put it this way, when I find that a saint, for example St. John Vianney, is incorrupt I rejoice. God loved that saint so much that he didn’t let their body be subjected to the corruption that sin causes. God is telling me that without a doubt, St. John Marie Vianney is in heaven, that if I follow the saint’s example, I will get to heaven to. God is pointing out this saint for special recognition by us, he is telling us to follow his example, that he was a good saint to follow the example of.
If you read the story of St. John Vianney, you will see why God chose him. He was not very smart, but despite that he converted an evil town and drew thousands of people to come back to God and to turn from their evil ways. He inflicted many punishments on himself and he fought the devil. He was a very good man. Some of the other saints had weaknesses, such as St. Claude de la Colombière , St. Margaret Mary said that he was in purgatory from the time of his death until the time of his burial because he had doubted for just a moment in the mercy of God. St. Augustine was an evil man before he converted and became a doctor of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas had trouble with eating too much. St. Margaret Mary suffered from despair. They were not super human perfect beings, but God picked them to show us that they were good examples of what we should do.
The Church throughly examines the lives of every person who is canonized. They don’t want someone someday coming up with something against that person, so the Church is very insistent that every aspect of the person’s life is examined. I mean, wouldn’t that be really stupid of the Church to be sloppy even once, and then a couple years later the person who was declared saint was found to be evil. The Church is extremely careful in who they canonize.

Basically what I am saying is that the Church uses the saints and different miracles not as proof, but as back-up for what it says. It does not require that anyone believe in these miracles, but sometimes it does support them. Such as people don’t need to believe in Fatima, but the Church did officially say it was a miracle, and it supports the devotion to the rosary. I am sorry that these miracles of incorrupt bodies and hosts turned into flesh disgust you, but if you see it from our point of view, does it still disgust you?

 

[Margarite]

God has not abandoned the Catholic faith in which he founded. My church has stood the test of time, it will never fall no matter what happens within. This has been proven for 2,000 years. While there is chaos and confusion in other churches, my church has authority given to Peter, 265 popes later with an unbroken link.
Your information is wrong. Apparently you are not on top of the Catholic faith to realize we have grown from 1.5 billion to 1.12 billion.
We are the leading religion in the world and still continue to grow.
As for your information of “medieval times” with the Holy Eucharist, you are wrong again. Some Eucharistic miracles were from this century.
I suggest you do some research about the Catholic faith to know what it’s all about. If you cannot do this, then there is nothing you know.

While this is true, what HashemEchad said is also partly true. The Catholic Church is now in the stages of cleaning up after a mess, the hippies took the Novus Ordo and turned it into something it was never meant to be, but Pope Benedict is fixing that problem. Every religion has its problems because every religion is made up of men, the doctrines and dogmas of the faith may be perfect, but the practice of those doctrines and dogmas can often be much less than perfect.
Even the Jews, they are no longer what they were, even in the days of Jesus. There is no one faith for the Jews any longer, there are all sorts of levels of how strict they are. HashemEchad seems to be one of the stricter ones, just as I am one of the stricter Catholics. Neither of us can point the finger at the other and say look you’re falling apart, because neither of us is, it may appear that way from outside, but those of us who are more traditional, we know that the laxness of a few, or even of the many does not reflect the religion itself, only the people within the religion. So while many Catholics may not believe in the true presence, it is the 30% who do believe that make the Catholic Church what it is. And while many Jews are not as strict as others, it is the small percentage who do follow all the rules, who really make up the Jewish faith.

If I wasn’t a Catholic I would probably be a Jew, and to Catholics, Jews should just be people who have not yet understood that Jesus is the messiah, I have great respect for the Jewish religion, though the liberal Jews have given the Jews a bad name, so have the bad priests given the Church a bad name. Don’t judge a religion by those who don’t follow the rules, rather judge it by those who do follow the rules.
My favorite talk show host Michael Medved is a conservative Jew, and he has great respect for the Catholic Church, and he speaks very well of the Church, shouldn’t we be at least as Christian as he is?

 

[AgnosTheist]

If, as I believe it is, the flesh is the flesh of God, why would we want people to go up and touch it.

because if it was meant to convince non-believers, then it should be given to them. right? its not gonna fulfill its purpose if you keep it bottled up. and why would you want to lock it up as if you have no faith that god can give you more if you need it. give it to the science team of discovery channel. unless you are afraid to be exposed as a hoax.

besides, you are supposed to believe that the consecrated wafer itself is the flesh of God. So you have a lot of flesh for yourself already.

 

[HashemEchad]

God has not abandoned the Catholic faith in which he founded. My church has stood the test of time, it will never fall no matter what happens within. This has been proven for 2,000 years. While there is chaos and confusion in other churches, my church has authority given to Peter, 265 popes later with an unbroken link.
Your information is wrong. Apparently you are not on top of the Catholic faith to realize we have grown from 1.5 billion to 1.12 billion.
We are the leading religion in the world and still continue to grow.
As for your information of “medieval times” with the Holy Eucharist, you are wrong again. Some Eucharistic miracles were from this century.
I suggest you do some research about the Catholic faith to know what it’s all about. If you cannot do this, then there is nothing you know.

The other poster implies that the God of Israel has abandoned the people of Israel (the Jews).

To this non-Catholic, it looks far more as if He has abandoned your church. Ever since V2, it has been falling apart, what with clown masses, various other ridiculousness…not to mention that in my city, the buses and subways are loaded with really expensive advertisements, begging Catholics to come back to the Catholic church.

Sounds to me as if the Catholic flood that began after V2 has turned into a tsunami.

Therefore, before any of you try to convert non-Catholics, maybe you need to work more on bringing back the millions who have left.

As the saying goes, “Physician, heal thyself first”. And fix your church! Make it what it used to be, 100%!

Margarite, God bless you! You understanding perfectly, from BOTH sides of the fence!

I do have to say that (except for the antisemitism), I have always greatly admired the Catholic church from before Vatican II. It was a church full of beauty, stunning liturgy, breathtaking Renaissance artwork…perhaps the closest anyone could come to heaven on earth. Yes, I truly do mean that, even though I personally find the doctrines of the Catholic church distasteful.

Your church took a work of beauty and threw it out in the trash. That ALONE proves to me its not the true religion. The true religion would never do anything like that. And I don’t think the modern Catholics truly believe the host becomes the body of Jesus, because if they truly did, they would never have permitted communion in the hand!

You destroyed works of beauty…marble altar rails, pretty statues, things that the rest of us always associated with “Catholicism”. Your nuns got rid of their full habits and started looking like social workers…they went from “Sister Annunziata” to “Sister Joanie”.

Heck, if Orthodox Judaism ever did anything like what your church did, with its wholesale destruction of all that truly breaths spirituality, I would leave it tomorrow and never look back. Why do you think I have never set foot in a liberal/Reform synagogue? If I wanted to go to a synagogue that looked and felt like a church, I know where to find churches! Ditto for the modern Catholic churches…they remind me of mainline liberal Protestant churches…and if I want to go to one, I know where to find them!

The irony of all this is, before Vatican II you would have had a far better chance of converting me than you ever would now (even though the church had more open antisemitism in it then). The way the Catholic church is now holds no enticement for me whatsoever. About the only thing you did good post-V2 was get rid of the anti-Jewish sentiment (on paper, anyway.)

(Vent mode now off…sorry, this has built up in me for decades, ever since I first saw a genuine Tridentine Mass in the 70s!)

 

[Koopa]

The other poster implies that the God of Israel has abandoned the people of Israel (the Jews).

To this non-Catholic, it looks far more as if He has abandoned your church. Ever since V2, it has been falling apart, what with clown masses, various other ridiculousness…not to mention that in my city, the buses and subways are loaded with really expensive advertisements, begging Catholics to come back to the Catholic church.

Sounds to me as if the Catholic flood that began after V2 has turned into a tsunami.

Therefore, before any of you try to convert non-Catholics, maybe you need to work more on bringing back the millions who have left.

As the saying goes, “Physician, heal thyself first”. And fix your church! Make it what it used to be, 100%!

Margarite, God bless you! You understanding perfectly, from BOTH sides of the fence!

… You said that after contradicting her statement. You say that God has abandoned our church, and list the horrible things that are happening. Margarite clarified to us that the people in a religion are not always a reflection of the religion. You state how Catholics are desperately trying to convert people back to the faith, and then tell us we need to work more on bringing back the millions who have left.

God has not left his Church, and he has not left his chosen people.

 

[adstrinity]

… You said that after contradicting her statement. You say that God has abandoned our church, and list the horrible things that are happening. Margarite clarified to us that the people in a religion are not always a reflection of the religion. You state how Catholics are desperately trying to convert people back to the faith, and then tell us we need to work more on bringing back the millions who have left.

God has not left his Church, and he has not left his chosen people.

This is the original quote:

"Hashem,

Tell me is God still speaking to the Traditional Jew? Has there been any Miracles lately like in the Past?"

Fine, this is all fine. Honest questions.

"Or has God abandoned the Jews again?

Ufamtobie"

Ufamtobie decides to get snippy here. This was not nice, this was not provoked, there was more to this question. There was no need for one who professes the Charity of Christ to resort to this question; it was meant to provoke an emotional defensive reply.

I am sure HashemEchad knows that the Catholics don’t worship and are obsessed with the dead and blood, but, the question was asked, and HASHEMECHAD GAVE US WHAT SHE THOUGHT OF IT. THAT IS ALL. Stop trying to put words in her mouth about what we believe.

Incidentally, HashemEchad, you are female, right? I thought I saw in another post you talking about your husband.

 

[Koopa]

And I don’t think the modern Catholics truly believe the host becomes the body of Jesus, because if they truly did, they would never have permitted communion in the hand!

I am a modern Catholic. I truly believe the host becomes the body of Jesus. I receive Communion in the hand. As far as we know, Christ did not go around at the last supper putting Communion on their tongue. Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist and the priest must also pass out the Eucharist with their hand. What makes the hand dirtier than the mouth? We are supposed to consume the Host in front of the Eucharistic minister. We are all unworthy to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord, and receiving Him in the hand will not make us any more worthy or reverent.

Another reason that we may receive it in the hand is because (at least at our parish this is the case) it often falls to the floor more often when receiving it on the tongue.

 

[HashemEchad]

… You said that after contradicting her statement. You say that God has abandoned our church, and list the horrible things that are happening. Margarite clarified to us that the people in a religion are not always a reflection of the religion. You state how Catholics are desperately trying to convert people back to the faith, and then tell us we need to work more on bringing back the millions who have left.

God has not left his Church, and he has not left his chosen people.

I didn’t say God had abandoned the Catholic church. I asked how do I know if maybe He didn’t, in light of what has gone on since V2.

 

[Koopa]

because if it was meant to convince non-believers, then it should be given to them. right? its not gonna fulfill its purpose if you keep it bottled up. and why would you want to lock it up as if you have no faith that god can give you more if you need it. give it to the science team of discovery channel. unless you are afraid to be exposed as a hoax.

besides, you are supposed to believe that the consecrated wafer itself is the flesh of God. So you have a lot of flesh for yourself already.

Quantity is not the issue. We will not give it to non-believers because they do not have the proper reverence. They do not believe. As it says in the Bible, a person who receives Communion without believing in the Real Presence receives his own condemnation.

We are not going to lend our Lord to an unmonitored science team to do tests on Him. Think of this with a child. Would you ever lend your child to the Discovery channel scientists so that they could do tests on him? That would be abominable, so how much more horrible would it be to lend God to a team of scientists?