What do Ya'll non-Catholics think of this:

[Yeshualuver]

At first I was amazed, but then remembered what Judaism teaches, that even pagan religions can have miracles, but standing alone, they don’t mean anything.

HaShemEchad is right. BTW, it’s really weird calling you by that name…I’m sure you understand. Is there something else I can call you?

Nevertheless, he is right. A study of the Scriptures both Hebrew and Greek will show that miracles in and of themselves are never proof of anything. Even Satan can perform miracles to deceive people into false beliefs.

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with **the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
**2Th 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

and…

Rev 13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Rev 13:14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

It’s the message that’s important…not the miracle.

 

[HashemEchad]

Thats an excellent idea!!! I’m gonna try that. Hmmm lets see which catholic churches in my area are handing out host wafers…

If its really God then maybe he could tell me something!

Agnos, I know we think alike on some things, but really, that would not be a nice thing to do. We may not believe what Catholics do about this, but at the very least, we should have respect for their sensitivities. I try to, even if some don’t respect mine.

 

[HashemEchad]

HaShemEchad is right. BTW, it’s really weird calling you by that name…I’m sure you understand. Is there something else I can call you?

Nevertheless, he is right. A study of the Scriptures both Hebrew and Greek will show that miracles in and of themselves are never proof of anything. Even Satan can perform miracles to deceive people into false beliefs.

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with **the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
**2Th 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

and…

Rev 13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Rev 13:14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

It’s the message that’s important…not the miracle.

“Hashem Echad” is Hebrew for “God is One”. Its not a name but an expression.

And you know, its funny, but I was studying Torah today and happened to read rabbinic interpretations of Deut. 13 which said that very same thing…in fact they said it is a long-standing tradition in Judaism to hold that miracles ALONE mean nothing. They said that false religions often rely on miracles by themselves to sway people, because they know they cannot convince based on reason.

My son’s Bar Mitzvah portion, from Exodus, dealt with this very issue. Remember when Moses cast down his rod and it turned into a serpent? And then Pharoah’s magicians did the same thing (but Moses’ serpent devoured Pharoah’s)? The rabbis say that was to show that even false religions can and do perform miracles, so we know that miracles ALONE are meaningless. As you said.

And there is a passage in your NT also, which says that signs and wonders will be performed to deceive, if possible, even the very elect. So its in your Bible, too.

(Wow, can’t believe that someone called “yeshualuvr” and I agree on anything!

 

[Techno2000]

“Hashem Echad” is Hebrew for “God is One”. Its not a name but an expression.

And you know, its funny, but I was studying Torah today and happened to read rabbinic interpretations of Deut. 13 which said that very same thing…in fact they said it is a long-standing tradition in Judaism to hold that miracles ALONE mean nothing. They said that false religions often rely on miracles by themselves to sway people, because they know they cannot convince based on reason.

My son’s Bar Mitzvah portion, from Exodus, dealt with this very issue. Remember when Moses cast down his rod and it turned into a serpent? And then Pharoah’s magicians did the same thing (but Moses’ serpent devoured Pharoah’s)? The rabbis say that was to show that even false religions can and do perform miracles, so we know that miracles ALONE are meaningless. As you said.

And there is a passage in your NT also, which says that signs and wonders will be performed to deceive, if possible, even the very elect. So its in your Bible, too.

(Wow, can’t believe that someone called “yeshualuvr” and I agree on anything!

Jesus and Beelzebub ( Mark 3 )
20Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebub[c]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”

Do you understand what’s going on here ?

 

[phooney]

How can one go about blaspheming against the holy spirit in a fashion that will never be forgiven?

 

[johncatholic]

To Agnos Theist,
Just remember the wrath of God and how you will be a naked soul before the Trinity after you expire and how you may hear the dreadful words.

 

[johncatholic]

I wouldn’t expect a Jewish person to believe in the Eucharist. Didn’t God rain down manna in the desert? This was a foretaste of the Eucharist and the coming Savior. Many didn’t even believe the miracles that God performed right in front of their eyes. And of course Satan can perform miracles and prodigies, but then again why when conjuring him up or becoming in league with him one needs to renounce the Catholic church and its beliefs? Why is there a parody of the Catholic Mass called the Black Mass if it isn’t truly a powerful ritual from God? How many scriptural references are there in the Old Testament concerning Jesus that are accurate? But they did say these people will see but still be blind and hear but still be deaf.

 

[Techno2000]

How can one go about blaspheming against the holy spirit in a fashion that will never be forgiven?

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit means to refuse to Believe,
some of the Jews refused to Believe that Jesus’s power came from
God, so they said his power came from the Devil.

15 And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. 16 Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.Mark 16:15-16

 

[Margarite]

“Hashem Echad” is Hebrew for “God is One”. Its not a name but an expression.

And you know, its funny, but I was studying Torah today and happened to read rabbinic interpretations of Deut. 13 which said that very same thing…in fact they said it is a long-standing tradition in Judaism to hold that miracles ALONE mean nothing. They said that false religions often rely on miracles by themselves to sway people, because they know they cannot convince based on reason.

My son’s Bar Mitzvah portion, from Exodus, dealt with this very issue. Remember when Moses cast down his rod and it turned into a serpent? And then Pharoah’s magicians did the same thing (but Moses’ serpent devoured Pharoah’s)? The rabbis say that was to show that even false religions can and do perform miracles, so we know that miracles ALONE are meaningless. As you said.

And there is a passage in your NT also, which says that signs and wonders will be performed to deceive, if possible, even the very elect. So its in your Bible, too.

(Wow, can’t believe that someone called “yeshualuvr” and I agree on anything!

But you see, we don’t just rely on the miracle, the miracle is only significant because of our faith, if it wasn’t for our faith, then it would be a piece of bread that somehow was changed into flesh, that doesn’t decay. It could be evil, but we wouldn’t really care about it because as Catholics we are taught the same as you, namely to ignore the “miracles” of false religions.

Now look again at the miracles that God worked through Moses.
Just because evil men could do the same, didn’t make the miracles less wonderful. So, miracles still shouldn’t be discounted completely. While you and I must be wary of miracles, that does not mean that we must totally discount them.

Throughout the history of the Catholic Church, some have claimed to see visions, many of such people have been proven wrong, or have been unapproved.

Fatima, Lourdes, Guadelupe, Knock, etc… these are a few of the approved appraritions. While we Catholics do not need to believe in these miracles, it is not required of us, it helps us a great deal when we do. The Church even based one of its dogmas off of Lourdes: Immaculate Conception.

Well, I am probably making no sense because it is 11:40 at night. Sorry
Have a great weekend!

 

[Steven_John]

Thats an excellent idea!!! I’m gonna try that. Hmmm lets see which catholic churches in my area are handing out host wafers…

I did not take it seriously, always crackin funnies.

 

[Techno2000]

But you see, we don’t just rely on the miracle, the miracle is only significant because of our faith, if it wasn’t for our faith, then it would be a piece of bread that somehow was changed into flesh, that doesn’t decay. It could be evil, but we wouldn’t really care about it because as Catholics we are taught the same as you, namely to ignore the “miracles” of false religions.

Now look again at the miracles that God worked through Moses.
Just because evil men could do the same, didn’t make the miracles less wonderful. So, miracles still shouldn’t be discounted completely. While you and I must be wary of miracles, that does not mean that we must totally discount them.

Throughout the history of the Catholic Church, some have claimed to see visions, many of such people have been proven wrong, or have been unapproved.

Fatima, Lourdes, Guadelupe, Knock, etc… these are a few of the approved appraritions. While we Catholics do not need to believe in these miracles, it is not required of us, it helps us a great deal when we do. The Church even based one of its dogmas off of Lourdes: Immaculate Conception.

Well, I am probably making no sense because it is 11:40 at night. Sorry
Have a great weekend!

No, I think that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception came a little bit before Lourdes but Lourdes kind of confirmed it.

 

[Steven_John]

Oh please…this is so ridiculous it isn’t funny. Kaballah isn’t even a religion. Even the Jews, the real Jews don’t accept it. They reject it.

please take it from me kaballah is very real practice.

I was inspired to seek teacher, chased it through my Catholic community, with dead response.

Jesus (pbwh) is said to have animated a clay bird i assume by this practice.

He is narrated to have spent time with Jewish elders when he was just a boy, they must have seen something in him to listen to and teach him while he was still in the cradle.

My search for teacher is not complete but have got some help from David Cooper. He is not concerned with age.
but he lives overseas (and thats too far for me to walk) just jokin its too far for to travell.

He says some catholics practice modified kaballah.

the practice i have done are very much in line with my prayer understanding, at some points i was a bit scared at how much i had been doing just from prayer inspiration.

So far i would have to testify it is a truth.

If it does not work for people they may have a false God image.

As for some one saying it is about pop? nothing disgusting in it that i know of.

 

[Margarite]

Would you Catholics stop being so dramatic and just a little strange?

They don’t believe that Jesus is God, they don’t believe in the New Testament, they don’t believe in the miracle that started this thread. So, stop trying to convince them by using the New Testament, and Jesus, that is silly!

I mean that is like what I heard the Mormon “apostle” on Michael Medved’s radio show the other day say “You should believe that the Mormon faith is the true faith because Joseph Smith said it is the true faith and so does the book of Mormon.” I mean that makes no sense. So stop bing so silly, try using your logical brains and use logic to find some other arguments that actually make sense.

I love the Church just as much as any of you, but I love it so much that I don’t want you to turn people off from it because you can’t see their point of view. Please try to understand their point of view, and discuss accordingly.

 

[elts1956]

I’ve had Catholics on this forum mock aspects of my faith. I did not complain because frankly, I expected it. Catholics do not exactly have a glorious history of respect for those of other faiths, esp. mine.

Dear Hashem. I think you may be pleasantly surprised to see how much many Catholics love and respect the Jewish Religion. After all, if it wasn’t for the thousands of years of the Jewish people remaining faithful to the One G - D, where would we Christians be? An unmeasurable, belated thanks from me for this. :angel1:

 

[elts1956]

I’ve had Catholics on this forum mock aspects of my faith. I did not complain because frankly, I expected it. Catholics do not exactly have a glorious history of respect for those of other faiths, esp. mine.

No, I think that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception came a little bit before Lourdes but Lourdes kind of confirmed it.

Not sure of the timetable either, but Lourdes did come after the declaration of the Immaculate Conception as Our Lady declared to St.Bernadette, “I am the Immaculate Conception”.

 

[Margarite]

No, I think that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception came a little bit before Lourdes but Lourdes kind of confirmed it.

Yes, you are right, I just looked it up, it became a dogma 4 years before Lourdes. Sorry Boy, I better stop writing tonight before I make any more blunders.

 

[Techno2000]

Would you Catholics stop being so dramatic and just a little strange?

They don’t believe that Jesus is God, they don’t believe in the New Testament, they don’t believe in the miracle that started this thread. So, stop trying to convince them by using the New Testament, and Jesus, that is silly!

I mean that is like what I heard the Mormon “apostle” on Michael Medved’s radio show the other day say “You should believe that the Mormon faith is the true faith because Joseph Smith said it is the true faith and so does the book of Mormon.” I mean that makes no sense. So stop bing so silly, try using your logical brains and use logic to find some other arguments that actually make sense.

I love the Church just as much as any of you, but I love it so much that I don’t want you to turn people off from it because you can’t see their point of view. Please try to understand their point of view, and discuss accordingly.

But remember they are coming to a Catholic web site so we are using our Catholic understanding and Logic too.

 

[Kaninchen]

They don’t believe that Jesus is God, they don’t believe in the New Testament, they don’t believe in the miracle that started this thread. So, stop trying to convince them by using the New Testament, and Jesus, that is silly!

It does have a certain pointlessness to it!

 

[Techno2000]

It does have a certain pointlessness to it!

Except for people like the Jewish Rosalind Moss
catholic.com/seminars/moss.asp

 

[Steven_John]

I would not say it is pointless but you are right as it is not trying to meet people where they are at.

on another thread a person made a genuine effort to step away from their understanding and met me where i was at.

They did more for me to understand how people differed to me than those who just posted the points of doctrines they were raised with.

If i speak to christians and jews i try to use the word God when speaking to muslims i try to say Allah with non believers The Good of All, i do this so they will get the message where they are.

I dont think it is about me being right and you being wrong or the other way around, it is about trying to create workable dialog so the truth can be heard.

May God / Allah / The Good of all bring us to unity in His / Her / Its truth.