What do you do when a stranger grabs your hand during Our Father prayer?

[phil19034]

Really? My church is on a busy city corner. We have noisy traffic going by constantly and frequent sirens can be heard. They are distracting, but what can you do? Pray anyway. In a nearby parish, they shush the children playing on the playground while Mass is going on. I can’t help but wonder what they’d think of the constant level of noise that we deal with. We mostly tune out the traffic, and the sirens just give us something else to pray about.

I have a friend with Restless Leg Syndrome. She is constantly up and down, walking outside for a few minutes, then coming back in during Divine Liturgy. It is distracting. My mom cannot stand for more than a few minutes. She frequently sits while others are standing. This can be distracting. We have a lovely gentleman in our parish who is developmentally delayed. He frequently greets people at highly inappropriate times during the Divine Liturgy, while we are trying to pray. Occasionally, while I still have Holy Communion in my mouth. Very distracting, I tell you. As for myself, I have a chronic (but non-contagious) cough. If it gets too bad, I’ll leave for a few minutes, but often I (and others) just tolerate it. My coming and going constantly could be very distracting. Some people would be distracted by a handsome man or beautiful woman sitting next to them. Should none of us in this list be allowed to attend Mass because of potential (or actual) distraction to others.?

Sometimes, we need to just get over ourselves and have a great deal of tolerance for our fellow man- whether it is a person refusing to hold our hand, a person insisting upon holding our hand, or something else entirely. On the other hand, we need to be respectful of others. That’s why we turn off our cell phones, try to dress modestly, keep a reasonable level of quiet inside the church, leave if our baby is crying uncontrollably. It really isn’t just about us. When we get to heaven, we wont’ have to deal with such distractions. Until then, they can be a tool for us to grow in holiness and virtue.

Obviously everything you mentioned are “one offs” or extraordinary situations. Of course one would need to deal with those distractions.

Your 3rd paragraph better expresses my point, be respectiful of others who are trying to pray.

 

[TimothyH]

I’m not advocating a position. I don’t " like" to join hands at the Pater Noster, but I’m always edified having done it.

I like your list of Mass particulars. I’m looking through your list for “encounter Jesus Christ the Son of God with my Christian brothers and sisters”.
(I think it’s significant that Jesus is a real person. of divine personhood and nature, also with a human nature…just like the other folk at Mass. We have bodies just like Christ, sometimes we touch each other.)

What do you think of the reality that Jesus took on flesh and blood and touched people?

***But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” *(Matthew 17:7)

I’m not afraid to touch other people.

-Tim-

 

[pianistclare]

Holding hands by the laity at Mass is NOT traditionally Catholic. It was introduced into the Mass by laity in Holland in the 1970’s and quickly picked up by American tourists. From there it spread to many English speaking countries.

Unfortunately it has become looked on by many laity as a liturgical gesture and it is not. Some people state that, since the rubrics and the GIRM do not forbid it, it is OK. But that is not the case. The purpose of the rubrics and the GIRM is to instruct on what is to be done at Mass - nowhere does it mention anything that is not to be done. Therefore, if it does not say we are to do it, or that it may be done, then we should not do it.

It has become very divisive, as can be seen by all the comments posted here. At one time I did it - really only because everyone else started doing it. When I researched it and realized that we should not do it, I stopped. Wow! The dirty looks I got when I joined my hands together and bent my head in prayer. My hand was tugged and grabbed, etc. Now most people do not do that - there are quite a lot of people who no longer hold hands, but do hold their hands in an orans position. Whenever someone tried to hold my hand now, I smile and say politely “I do not hold hands.” Sometimes I still get a reluctance to offering my the sign of peace - seem as some people think if I won’t hold their hand at the Our Father I wouldn’t want to offer them a sign of peace either. You can’t win. That is why I really wish bishops would put a stop to it once and for all.

Well stated. Yes.
The Church should decide one way or another and make a binding statement. Enough of these endless arguments. Either promote it, or prohibit it.
I’ve been aggressively bombarded because of it. While hand holding during the Our Father is not a hill to die on, if it become a cause for ill will? Get rid of it. We don’t need it to have a valid Mass.

 

[babochka]

So what I hear you saying is that the Mass is almost uniquely off limits for the physicality that permeates Catholicism.
Holy orders is passed by laying of hands.
Baptism using water
Extreme Unction- oils and touching
Confirmation- more of it
Confession- with a priest in persona Christi
The Eucharist of course
Marriage is a very physical thing.
We are asked to help the sick, suffering, etc…none of which can really be done from a distance.
We point to these realities every day, where the physical is foundational to our worship and our daily lives, and we point to them as defining the Catholic faith. Even to the point of fighting for the sanctity of marriage…“a physical body has meaning.” Yet joining hands to pray at one point in the Mass can not be part of that?

I’m not trying to say joining hands at the Pater Noster is one of the sacraments,
but, you can see how a case could be made that the appropriate joining of hands to pray at Mass is very traditionally Catholic.

While I disagree with your conclusion, I think the rest speaks very well to those who are so afraid to have physical contact with others, or repulsed by it. We have a physical faith. I especially like the point about caring for the sick and suffering. We are not called to give this service, this love, only to those we are close to, or only to those who make us feel comfortable.

So much of this “touching” stuff is cultural. We live in a multi-cultural society, so there are bound to be conflicts between those who are from more “touchy-feely” cultures and those who are from more hands-off cultures. Again, tolerance seems to be the key here.

(Once again, for those who missed it the first time - I do not really approve of hand-holding during the Our Father. I’m simply addressing the aspect of this discussion that essentially says “I don’t like to touch other people.”)

 

[phil19034]

So what I hear you saying is that the Mass is almost uniquely off limits for the physicality that permeates Catholicism.
Holy orders is passed by laying of hands.
Baptism using water
Extreme Unction- oils and touching
Confirmation- more of it
Confession- with a priest in persona Christi
The Eucharist of course
Marriage is a very physical thing.
We are asked to help the sick, suffering, etc…none of which can really be done from a distance.
We point to these realities every day, where the physical is foundational to our worship and our daily lives, and we point to them as defining the Catholic faith. Even to the point of fighting for the sanctity of marriage…“a physical body has meaning.” Yet joining hands to pray at one point in the Mass can not be part of that?

I’m not trying to say joining hands at the Pater Noster is one of the sacraments,
but, you can see how a case could be made that the appropriate joining of hands to pray at Mass is very traditionally Catholic.

No. I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying if the Rubics of the Mass say hold hands, then I would say hold hands. It doesn’t. Bishops, Church Documents, Priests, etc have all said that the Orans Posture is for the Priest to collect the prayers of the Faithful and “funnel” them to God. There is a theology behind the posture.

Also, if it was the correct posture, the Deacons would do it too. They do not. Co-celebrating prests lower their hands before the “For the kingdom, the power adn teh glory are yours now and for ever.” But some people want to raise their hands even higher, when the celebrant is supposed to be the only one with his hands up at that point.

Did you listen to Archbishop Sample on the link I sent earlier? If not, here it is again:

Listen to Archbishop Sample discuss the Orans Postion here on Catholic Answers Live

catholic.com/radio/shows/…rgy-right-9475

between minutes 42:20 and 48:00

 

[babochka]

Obviously everything you mentioned are “one offs” or extraordinary situations. Of course one would need to deal with those distractions.

Sorry, it isn’t obvious. These are situations that occur weekly at my parish. We average 60-70 people at our one Divine Liturgy each Sunday, so they are really quite inescapable. My chronic cough doesn’t really take a break on Sundays. The kind, but inappropriate, gentleman is encouraged to be there every Sunday. The traffic and sirens are neither one-off nor extraordinary. We, as individuals in the parish, have simply learned to deal with these distractions and redirect our attention to prayer.

Your 3rd paragraph better expresses my point, be respectiful of others who are trying to pray.

My point goes both ways. Even if others are not respectful, we still need to be respectful toward them.

 

[ProVobis]

Anyone who has contempt for those who prefer to hold hands or prefer not to lacks the proper disposition for Mass. Some of these comments exhibit that contempt.

Some of this is amplified by the internet so I wouldn’t make that sort of judgement as to what they do at Mass. How many have you really seen rise up and leave the Church because of hand-holding or not? Basically people can be and are civil IMO. Although I have personally witnessed some intense feelings at the sign of peace when someone started walking across the aisles. But then this was an obnoxious person to begin with, having laughed and making gestures through the Gloria and other prayers.

 

[johnmann]

Well stated. Yes.
The Church should decide one way or another and make a binding statement. Enough of these endless arguments. Either promote it, or prohibit it.
I’ve been aggressively bombarded because of it. While hand holding during the Our Father is not a hill to die on, if it become a cause for ill will? Get rid of it. We don’t need it to have a valid Mass.

We don’t need Communion for the laity to have a valid Mass either.

 

[johnmann]

That being said, your hand position is in an orans position, traditionally reserved for the priest…

Depends how far you want to go back. It wasn’t always a priestly posture. And even when it was, the reason was that the priest prayed on behalf of the people. Now that the people also pray the Our Father at the same time, the orans posture doesn’t even serve its purpose for the priest. I would actually want to see priests stop doing it during the Our Father.

 

[pianistclare]

We don’t need Communion for the laity to have a valid Mass either.

Ok, now we’re just arguing for the sake of arguing.
I’m out.

 

[phil19034]

Depends how far you want to go back. It wasn’t always a priestly posture. And even when it was, the reason was that the priest prayed on behalf of the people. Now that the people also pray the Our Father at the same time, the orans posture doesn’t even serve its purpose for the priest.** I would actually want to see priests stop doing it during the Our Father**.

That would be a good idea too. I know the Bishops have discussed this.

 

[ProVobis]

And even when it was, the reason was that the priest prayed on behalf of the people.

Prayed, as in past tense? Sorry, I’m going to have to disagree with you here. The priest still prays on behalf of the people. The people can’t consecrate the Eucharist or make the Mass valid.

I keep thinking back to when my father was on his deathbed and the priest started with some prayers and I thought he meant for us to follow him. He immediately stopped, signifying that we were supposed to keep quiet. Sure the Church has now allowed the congregation to join the priest in the praying of the Pater Noster, but let’s not treat this as an absolute right inside the Mass.

 

[Neofight]

Anyone who has contempt for those who prefer to hold hands or prefer not to lacks the proper disposition for Mass. Some of these comments exhibit that contempt.

Opinion and discussion is the purpose of these forums…anyone who wants lockstep agreement with their opinions might have their own issues with proper disposition for life in general.

 

[johnmann]

Prayed, as in past tense? Sorry, I’m going to have to disagree with you here. The priest still prays on behalf of the people. The people can’t consecrate the Eucharist or make the Mass valid.

I keep thinking back to when my father was on his deathbed and the priest started with some prayers and I thought he meant for us to follow him. He immediately stopped, signifying that we were supposed to keep quiet. Sure the Church has now allowed the congregation to join the priest in the praying of the Pater Noster, but let’s not treat this as an absolute right inside the Mass.

I was talking specifically about the Our Father. The priest no longer prays the Our Father alone. The priest only assumes the orans posture when he’s praying on behalf of the people by himself. At other times, like the Confiteor, Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, and Sanctus when the people also say the prayers, the priest does not assume the orans posture. The Our Father is the one exception, probably a historical accident.

 

[Mintaka]

With all this talk about how it’s “Our Father” and not “My Father” –

Do you really think the disciples and the Apostles prayed this holding hands? Jews have a lot of different ancient prayer postures, but that is not one.

Also, you are aware that this is a prayer asking God to come down and get all eschatological, right? It’s not all a happy home prayer; it’s asking for the end of the world, the coming of the Davidic Kingdom, etc., and that we won’t end up in deep doodoo. It doesn’t really get more solemn than this. It would be more appropriate if people were doing panicky handholding at a moment like that. “Deliver us from evil,” yuppers.

And no, something that got introduced in the 1970’s or 1980’s does not instantly take priority over 2000 years of Church Tradition with a big T.

Of course the urge is for Catholics to do everything all together, which is why devotional practices can become almost mandatory. But if you’re not going to expect the way Hispanic and Italian people kiss their thumbs after making the Sign of the Cross to become mandatory, you can’t expect this fringe US handholding thing to be mandatory. And to try to shame people into doing it is as crazy as it would be for me to show up at your house and try to shame you into putting all your stockings up on St. Nicholas Day, when you’re a Hispanic family that puts out your shoes on Three Kings Day a month later. (Especially when it should really be shoes for St. Nicholas too…)

But yeah, it’s going to be an awfully strongminded modern mystic who can have visions today, when you can’t kneel, can’t stay in the pew, can’t hear yourself think. St. Catherine of Siena managed it in her noisy churches, of course, but she also managed to pray when people were beating and poking her, and when she was scrubbing down the whole house.

 

[Catie59]

Ok, now we’re just arguing for the sake of arguing.
I’m out.

Ditto

 

[johnmann]

Do you really think the disciples and the Apostles prayed this holding hands? Jews have a lot of different ancient prayer postures, but that is not one.

Also, you are aware that this is a prayer asking God to come down and get all eschatological, right? It’s not all a happy home prayer; it’s asking for the end of the world, the coming of the Davidic Kingdom, etc., and that we won’t end up in deep doodoo. It doesn’t really get more solemn than this. It would be more appropriate if people were doing panicky handholding at a moment like that. “Deliver us from evil,” yuppers.

And no, something that got introduced in the 1970’s or 1980’s does not instantly take priority over 2000 years of Church Tradition with a big T.

The apostles also didn’t kneel during prayer or receive communion on the tongue. The idea that we have to do what they did in 30 AD is actually anti-traditional.

Not holding hands is not “Tradition with a big T.” Do you really believe that the Church has no authority to mandate holding hands during the Our Father?

 

[Big_Feet]

At mass one Sunday, a lady beside me looked uneasy that I was putting my hands out without holding hers. I pretended not to notice her uneasiness as we’ve already started praying. A little after we started, she grabbed my hand. I felt very, very unhappy. I don’t want a stranger having physical contact with my palm. I do think she was being rude grabbing my hand off right like that. At another mass of the same time, my husband and I sat with her on the same pew again and I made my husband sit beside her instead. She did the same thing to him. How do we tell people like that firmly yet politely that we don’t have to hold hands at mass?

Quite simply…Don’t put your hands out!
That, by it’s action is seen as an invitation to hold hands. What my family does is to hold our hands together in a prayerful manner, either folded or palms together with fingers pointed toward heaven. The orans position of the hands among the faithful only invites such problems as this. The priest does not have this problem, as he is instructed to stand in the way you are suggesting, but those around him (deacons) are instructed to hold their hands together.

 

[TimothyH]

With all this talk about how it’s “Our Father” and not “My Father” –

Do you really think the disciples and the Apostles prayed this holding hands? Jews have a lot of different ancient prayer postures, but that is not one.

Also, you are aware that this is a prayer asking God to come down and get all eschatological, right? It’s not all a happy home prayer; it’s asking for the end of the world, the coming of the Davidic Kingdom, etc., and that we won’t end up in deep doodoo. It doesn’t really get more solemn than this. It would be more appropriate if people were doing panicky handholding at a moment like that. “Deliver us from evil,” yuppers.

And no, something that got introduced in the 1970’s or 1980’s does not instantly take priority over 2000 years of Church Tradition with a big T.

Of course the urge is for Catholics to do everything all together, which is why devotional practices can become almost mandatory. But if you’re not going to expect the way Hispanic and Italian people kiss their thumbs after making the Sign of the Cross to become mandatory, you can’t expect this fringe US handholding thing to be mandatory. And to try to shame people into doing it is as crazy as it would be for me to show up at your house and try to shame you into putting all your stockings up on St. Nicholas Day, when you’re a Hispanic family that puts out your shoes on Three Kings Day a month later. (Especially when it should really be shoes for St. Nicholas too…)

But yeah, it’s going to be an awfully strongminded modern mystic who can have visions today, when you can’t kneel, can’t stay in the pew, can’t hear yourself think. St. Catherine of Siena managed it in her noisy churches, of course, but she also managed to pray when people were beating and poking her, and when she was scrubbing down the whole house.

St. Augustin writes in The Confessions about gathering in a circle, holding hands and praying.

-Tim-

 

[rfournier103]

If someone grabs my hand (usually my wife, but sometimes someone else is sitting on my other side…) I take their hand and just keep on praying. We ARE all bretheren in Christ, are we not?

Recieving the Eucharist with unclean hands is not an issue for me as I am not worthy to touch it with my hands. I recieve the Blessed Sacrament on the tongue, so I can hold anyone’s hand I feel like and it’s no biggie.