What do you miss most as an ex-Evangelical?

[JesusforMadrid]

But evangelicals need to look closer to see why their apparent success isn’t really so great.

I don’t know if there are many Evangelicals who frequent this site, but this post from MANUALMAN is a very acute critique of the Evangelical church in the US today. What are we to think of this?

I agree generally with the above and I am an Evangelical. I have observed the same. I have also lamented this trend, especially as a former Lutheran and Anglican. I have watched as beautiful church buildings have slowly been sapped of their congregants. I have accepted this trend. And more recently, I have rejoiced in this trend.

I know this is hard for Roman Catholics to understand, but Evangelicals consider “church” much more in terms of the local congregation and much less in terms of the building, the denomination or the hierarchical structure. Actually, I think this is perfectly in line with the Early Church communities (I would recommend the book The Chair of St. Peter). I think it is no bad thing that churches disappear if they are no longer meeting the needs of the people in the congregations.

Every generation has slightly different needs requiring different styles and gifts. In the book of Acts, we see the Spirit of God working in different ways with different people. Paul had an amazing ability to integrate his message within the context of radically different cultures, for example at Mars Hill.

So, unless a local church is willing to communicate the immutable truth of the gospel in a dynamic way to every new generation, it should rightly disappear. I know this idea is foreign to most Catholics and many Mainline Protestants, but I think it is quite right. I am encouraged that many “emerging churches” in the US have completely given up the idea of buying property and instead simply rent a convenient space. This forces them to either serve their local communities or disappear. Joseph Shumpeter, the Austrian economist, spoke of a “Creative destruction of Capitalism”. I think there is perhaps a “Creative destruction of Christianity” also.

Which is a good thing. I know such is shocking, but consider the state of Christianity in the US compared with Europe (I am a statistics geek, so bear with me).

Approximately 40% of Americans attend religious services every week. In Spain, as in every other European country, the figure is much lower. I would argue that the reason for this is that American Christianity has learned to communicate its message in a more relevant manner.

During the last 40 years, this percentage of church/mass attenders in the US has basically not changed (I am a premium subscriber to the Gallup Website–really tragic, I know). What has changed is the dramatic make-up of American Christianity. The mainline denominations have lost membership in absolute terms, the Roman Catholic church has maintained its % and grown some in absolute numbers(which, given the disproportionate immigration of people from countries where Roman Catholicism dominates, means that many have left the Roman Church) and the Evangelical Churches have grown in % and absolute terms in membership. Estimates are that 1/3 of Evangelicals today are from “Evangelical families”, 1/3 are converts from Mainline Protestant Churches and 1/3 are former Roman Catholics.

Compare this with any European country. Basically, European countries 40 years ago looked much like the US in terms of church attendance . However, church attendance has fallen steadily in every European country and currently in most countries is 5-15% of the population on any given Sunday. The decline in attendance that these European countries have witnessed mirrors the declines that the Mainline US denominatins have witnessed! That is, without the Evangelical churches filling the gap, one might expect a similar trend in American Christianity as in Europe.

The Evangelical churches, including the fastest growing US denominations, namely the Assembly of God and Southern Baptists, have an high degree of local autonomy. For such churches, it is basically sink or swim. Adapt to the needs of your local community, reach out to unbelievers, understand the problems and challenges of the next generation, or disappear.

Faced with the situation that we face in Europe, of slowly dying churches without anything taking their places, or the more dynamic “Creative Destruction” environment in the US, I think we should conclude that the US environment is much preferable, due in large part to the ability of Evangelical churches to adapt.

So, as far as I am concerned, long live Willow Creek, Saddleback, Pastor Chou with his 500,000 church members in Seoul and other megachurches. Long live, I say, as long as they are reaching out to those in their communities, meeting the needs of their parishoners, seeing lives changed, moving with God’s Spirit. Otherwise, adios. Something better will take their place.

 

[Image_of_God]

Spain is a Roman Catholic country in terms of history, tradition and number of beautiful churches, but certainly not in terms of practice. Only about 15% of Spaniards (including my wife) attend mass weekly. Spain is possibly the most anti-clerical country in Europe and in the same breath, most Spaniards will tell you that they are Catholic and that they hate the RC church, which of course is terribly sad. The RC church has very little influence on the hearts and minds of the people, as evidenced by some of the most liberal abortion laws in Europe, legalised homosexual marriage, and lowest birth rate in Europe (with Italy).

There is a growing Evangelical presence, driven by mostly Romanian and South American immigrants. Many of the pastors in Spain are ex-Catholic priests and theologians. Yet reaching the average Spaniard is difficult.

Pray for Spain.

This is terribly unfortunate. Since I am learning French, I was think about France, and its Catholic majority. And after what I read, most the French are not really Catholic. It is so sad because many of the Catholics forget that their ancestors such as Louis IX, Joan of Arc, etc. made France, France. I feel so bad to see that the Roman Catholic Church is in termoil there, and I don’t understand.

France was hit hard by the Enlightment and it seems that that since the fall of the Monarchy, the Church doesn’t even have a chance. No one seems to believe in God at all over there. They have forgotten what made France, France. It is so sad because in my heart I know that St. Joan of Arc is looking down on her country and is not happy at how the people have abandoned their Roman Catholicism.

And I also know that if St. Teresa of Avila were to come back to Spain, she would be shocked.

I don’t want to offend anybody, but I just feel strongly about this topic, because it has been on my mind alot. It seems that only Italy and Poland, as far as I know have been able fight against secularism in Western Europe.

 

[Image_of_God]

I think that the Evangelical Movement is at least something, because at least they will believe in God. But, I also wish that they were not so Anti-Catholic.

 

[mastda]

In my experience, the Evangelical church works better in practice than the Roman church, is growing more and changes more lives. Sorry, that is my anecdotal experience, I don’t mean to offend anybody by saying that. Showing that it works better in theory is more time consuming and tiring.I will quickly hit the wall of my own theological training.

JFM, when I read this I smile because I used to think the same thing when I was an evangelical protestant. The growth in the protestant churches in Spain are only short term and it will max out eventually. I was part of the “Toronto Blessing” and the phenomonon surrounding that and it eventually peaked, stayed awhile then the numbers went backwards. I used to think with 15 or 20 new souls coming forward every week to accept Jesus and become saved at the altar call was growth but the church was not growing in relation to those numbers. Please follow the numbers here for a minute while I explain my point. When I started attending the Potestant church I was attending for 5 years the church had about 600 people attending the service every week. About 200 new people accepted Jesus every year but the Church only saw limited growth and 5 years later the numbers were a little higher but seemed about the same. At even a 25% retention rate the church should of nearly doubled in size.

Now the church had some amazing music, awesome fired up preaching. You did not have a pulse if you did not leave the service on fire for God. You did not have a pulse if you did not cry during the praise and worship. There were many “life changing sermons” but here is the problem. There was little or no substance because it was based on pure emotion and these emotions used to last only for a few days. I think this is why many evangelical protestant churches have a mid week service to fire up the flock again.

Don’t get fooled by numbers. You’ve heard “numbers don’t lie”. Don’t believe this saying because it is not true. You can interpret numbers to say whatever you want them too.

 

[Tonks40]

I think that the Evangelical Movement is at least something, because at least they will believe in God. But, I also wish that they were not so Anti-Catholic.

Yes, this is true. But like mastda said, it appears that evangelicalism does not have the lasting-power as the One True Church does.

I recently went to a non-denominational Christmas Eve service (to see some old friends of mine who were performing in the choir). Being once a member of this particular choir, I was kinda shocked and saddened to see that at their second service, the number of people attending had dwindled quite a bit from when I was performing with them! And I thought this was a vibrant faith community…

It was comforting to see at the Christmas Vigil Mass later that night that the pews and the aisles were full (SRO).

 

[Anima_Christi]

I wonder what ex-Evangelicals miss most about their churches.

Absolutely nothing!
I also attend only the Traditional Latin Mass which is about as un-Protestant as you can get, and I love it. I actually dislike the new mass because it is too protestant. There is nothing I miss about Protestantism and they have nothing good that we don’t already have times ten.

I have read several ex-Evangelicals such as Peter Kreeft, whom I like, and Scott Hahn, whom I think is rubbish.

You’re right to be wary of Scott Hahn, although I hear some of his stuff is OK, he has a few heretical ideas that are dangerous, such as the Holy Spirit being feminine. His Bible studies seem Protestant-style and if I am going to study Scripture I want to to be totally Catholic and not influenced by Protestant methods.

Btw, have you always lived in Spain? Your English is impeccable.

 

[mastda]

You’re right to be wary of Scott Hahn, although I hear some of his stuff is OK, he has a few heretical ideas that are dangerous, such as the Holy Spirit being feminine. His Bible studies seem Protestant-style and if I am going to study Scripture I want to to be totally Catholic and not influenced by Protestant methods.

Scott Hahn is not infallible, he is a mere mortal. It is totally unfair to call him dangerous and we should be wary of him. When I reverted back to Catholicism I could not get enough of Scott Hahn and Marcus Grodi. I remember reading “Rome Sweet Home” in one sitting. Scott may use protestant methods because protestants do not listen to catholic methods. This just makes sense. If Scott was an ex mormon he would use mormon methods to reach mormons.

In regards to his feminine holy spirit I recently read that Dr. Hahn will make helpful revisions for the next printing of that book. We really should let this go, dont you think?

 

[mtk76]

Reference please regarding the Scott Hahn comment and The Holy Spirit being femine

Thanks
mtk

 

[Kendy]

Scott Hahn is not infallible, he is a mere mortal. It is totally unfair to call him dangerous and we should be wary of him. When I reverted back to Catholicism I could not get enough of Scott Hahn and Marcus Grodi. I remember reading “Rome Sweet Home” in one sitting. Scott may use protestant methods because protestants do not listen to catholic methods. This just makes sense. If Scott was an ex mormon he would use mormon methods to reach mormons.

In regards to his feminine holy spirit I recently read that Dr. Hahn will make helpful revisions for the next printing of that book. We really should let this go, dont you think?

Scott Hahn has done more to bring people to the catholic church than most. There are very few catholics out there who are at all interested in bring people back to the church… Scott Hahn has tirelessly done this important work, and God bless him for it.

 

[RNRobert]

I don’t miss the music that much, I found much of it overly sentimental and corny (as C.S. Lewis wrote, "fifth rate poetry set to sixth rate music), although Catholic music isn’t a whole lot better (though I do like a couple hymns, like "I am the Bread of Life, a very Eucharistic hymn).
As for fellowship, as somebody pointed out, some churches (like mine) that have coffee and donuts after Mass, plus there are alot of Catholic organizations (like the Knights of Columbus) that provide opportunities for fellowship.
I do think that many priests could take a few lessons from Protestant ministers in improving their homilies. The Baptist church I attended had a pastor who gve excellent sermons (I used to think to myself, “Hurry up with the music already so I can hear the preaching.” Not that 10-15 minutes isn’t long enough, but I’ve found many priests tend to ‘meander’ with no focus. There was a priest in our parish (who passed away in 2001 to cancer, God rest his soul), who was a great homilist.
Another thing is that Catholics by and large don’t seem to have as much knowledge of their faith as some Protestants. The priest at my church, when giving a homily, will sometimes ask questions of the congregation related to the day’s scriptiure readings. Being a former Protestant, I usually end up answering the question. Once, the gospel reading (I believe it was John) mentions Jesus “setting his face to go to Jerusalem” and our priest asked why Jesus was doing that. I sat on my hands, figuring this was an easy one. After a couple of minutes, no one had answered, so I stuck my hand up, and “Said, to be crucified and die for our sins.” After Mass, someone congratulated me on giving the correct answer and I replied, “That was embarrassing. That was Catholicism 101.” Perhaps Sunday school isn’t such a bad idea.

 

[O.S.Luke]

“Evangelical” means exactly what we all know it means: a protestant with a high view of scripture and a “low church” style.

I don’t know if there would be common agreement upon that definition. By the truest definition of the word, all Christians should be evangelical. It’s not a dirty word.

euangelion is the Greek word: “good news”, as the word is used in the Four Gospels. But that word has been co-opted by different cultures. In Europe, followers of Luther were considered “evangelical” while Calvin’s followers were called “reformed.” In America, the term originally differentiated some Protestants from those who called themselves “Fundamentalists.”

I’m a United Methodist. Traditionally, we were a movement that began with the Anglican Church that sought to find the inclusion of the sacramental and the evangelical.

It seems to me that the word “evangelical” has about as much meaning as words such as conservative, liberal, radical, moderate.

My :twocents:.

 

[RNRobert]

I’d like to elaborate further on what I wrote in post #48. I think the reason many Catholics are led away from the Church into Protestant denominations is that many Catholics are not properly taught the faith, and probably lead their spiritual lives in autopilot. When they are approached by someone who is very enthusiastic about their faith and shown some Bible verses that “prove” the Catholic Church is wrong, they are easy to convince and thus leave the Church.

 

[apophasis]

Spain is a Roman Catholic country in terms of history, tradition and number of beautiful churches, but certainly not in terms of practice. Only about 15% of Spaniards (including my wife) attend mass weekly. Spain is possibly the most anti-clerical country in Europe and in the same breath, most Spaniards will tell you that they are Catholic and that they hate the RC church, which of course is terribly sad. The RC church has very little influence on the hearts and minds of the people, as evidenced by some of the most liberal abortion laws in Europe, legalised homosexual marriage, and lowest birth rate in Europe (with Italy).

There is a growing Evangelical presence, driven by mostly Romanian and South American immigrants. Many of the pastors in Spain are ex-Catholic priests and theologians. Yet reaching the average Spaniard is difficult.

Pray for Spain.

Thank you so much for this information. Spain is now in my morning prayers!!! And I will be praying that many come to a personal belief in Christ, and they will know without a doubt that through faith in Him, and Him alone, they have eternal life, having passed out of death into life. Often in the greatest darkness the truth of Christ shines more brightly.

Blessings,

 

[scylla]

I miss the trust, as now that I go to the Catholic Church suddenly I am not to be trusted. People don’t want to talk to me, and are hesitant to talk about religion once I start giving them reasons for the Catholic faith and how following Jesus led me to it.

Now they act like I have done it out of selfish reasons, which is absolutely nuts. As if I gave up the sinful pleasures that weren’t sin in the Evangelical Church for fun? Whaaa?

Did I do it for fun, convenience, good music and great fellowship. It sure did feel great to go to the Evangelical Church but is that a good reason or a worldly reason?

It is certainly more difficult to be Catholic but rewarding as I have found the truth. No more ignoring history as everything supports the truth of Catholicism, heck almost every passage of the Bible comes alive to me now as it is so Catholic, I am astounded to see it and why didn’t I see it before. I have no idea, but it is all based on the faith tradition you read the Bible from.
Evangelicals read the Bible from a faith tradition that forces certain interpretations, but I certainly can say the same for Catholics. One is the same faith tradition as the Apostles one is fairly recent. One is 100% true the other contains about 90% truth.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Thank you so much for this information. Spain is now in my morning prayers!!! And I will be praying that many come to a personal belief in Christ, and they will know without a doubt that through faith in Him, and Him alone, they have eternal life, having passed out of death into life. Often in the greatest darkness the truth of Christ shines more brightly.

Blessings,

Thank you really. This is extremely thoughtful of you.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

I don’t know if there would be common agreement upon that definition. By the truest definition of the word, all Christians should be evangelical. It’s not a dirty word.

euangelion is the Greek word: “good news”, as the word is used in the Four Gospels. But that word has been co-opted by different cultures. In Europe, followers of Luther were considered “evangelical” while Calvin’s followers were called “reformed.” In America, the term originally differentiated some Protestants from those who called themselves “Fundamentalists.”

I’m a United Methodist. Traditionally, we were a movement that began with the Anglican Church that sought to find the inclusion of the sacramental and the evangelical.

It seems to me that the word “evangelical” has about as much meaning as words such as conservative, liberal, radical, moderate.

My :twocents:.

I agree, difficult to define, a bit like “pornography”: I know it when I see it.

 

[djrakowski]

There are very few things I miss from my evangelical days. Mostly, I wish there were more opportunities to study the Bible with fellow Catholics. I loved the small groups ministry at our old church, but I’ve never seen anything like it in a Catholic parish.

I miss the old, classic Protestant hymns, but not the new praise-and-worship, its-all-about-me music that’s replaced it. I miss the fact that everyone sang there, compared to roughly half the folks I see singing at Mass (which is a higher estimate than I’ve heard in other parishes).

I go to a parish that offers tons of opportunities for fellowship and ministry, so I’m not missing out in those areas.

Our priests give excellent homilies that touch on Catholic doctrine, devotional practices, history, catechesis and Biblical teaching, but they’re far too short for this former Baptist. I’m used to 30-45 minute sermons, and not noticing that the service ran overtime.

 

[RNRobert]

I miss the old, classic Protestant hymns

What I’ve found ironic is that the music missal in our parish has a number of old Protestant hymns, such as Amazing Grace (which we sing from time to time) and Luther’s A Mighty Fortress is Our God (which I find really ironic).

 

[djrakowski]

What I’ve found ironic is that the music missal in our parish has a number of old Protestant hymns, such as Amazing Grace (which we sing from time to time) and Luther’s A Mighty Fortress is Our God (which I find really ironic).

Yeah, I’ve noticed that, too. The latter isn’t too bad, unless you know the story behind the lyrics.

I love and miss some of the old, schmaltzy ones like How Great Thou Art, Blessed Assurance and When I Survey The Wondrous Cross. They all have a strength of conviction that I sometimes find lacking in the hymns many parishes seem to use.

 

[RNRobert]

Yeah, I’ve noticed that, too. The latter isn’t too bad, unless you know the story behind the lyrics.

I love and miss some of the old, schmaltzy ones like How Great Thou Art, Blessed Assurance and When I Survey The Wondrous Cross. They all have a strength of conviction that I sometimes find lacking in the hymns many parishes seem to use.

One of the Catholic hymns I like is “I Am the Bread of Life,” a very eucharistic hymn. Another is “Song of the Body of Christ” (I think that’s the name of it) that’s set to a Hawaiian tune I find very beautiful. That and “Lord of the Dance,” which is set to a Shaker tune.