What do you miss most as an ex-Evangelical?

[The_Catholic]

I have met probably over a hundred former Catholics who now attend Evangelical churches. (Estimates are that perhaps 1/3 of US Evangelicals are former Catholics. Here in Spain, it is more like 90%). Many confide in me that they miss certain things at times from their former denomination: liturgy, a sense of tradition, some even say a greater focus on Mary (which honestly surprises me since I am pretty anti-marian).

(The Catholic) Those who normally abandon the Catholic Church do it for morality, or you might say unmorality reasons. At least in my case. The can’t be homosexual, use contraceptives, have women preachers, cannot be married without having children, etc.

I wonder what ex-Evangelicals miss most about their churches. I have read several ex-Evangelicals such as Peter Kreeft, whom I like, and Scott Hahn, whom I think is rubbish.

(The catholic) That silly Scott Hahn, how could he become a Catholic. He must not know the Bible.

I have honestly met only one ex-Evangelical in my life, whose conversion was mostly for professional reasons (he teaches at a Catholic school). He misses contemporary praise and worship songs, in depth bible studies and going to a church where people actually know and pray for one another.

(The Catholic) At the Catholic Church I attend there are Bible studies and people are very warm hearted and pray for one another and fellowship all the time. Just because some Catholic Churches (because of the people who go there) seem to be cold and dead faith wise, doesn’t mean they all are.

I know there are several more here, though. I am not looking for a debate, just honest opinions. What do you miss?

I used to go to the Christian Missionary Alliance Church. What I miss is the conversations me and two others would always have after the service. We would remain at the church for literaly three hours fellowshipping about God and theological doctrines. Now one of my friends attends a Seventh-Day Adentist Church and the other still goes to the missionary church, but is unhappy with it because he is really into the teachings of Mr. Harold Camping from Family Radio.

God bless you.

 

[pnewton]

I noticed the last couple of years that our lenten missalette had the song “Near the Cross” in it. I started singing it when it appeared and it has already become a favorite of many. Of course, we have a high number of converts.

 

[rr1213]

One of the Catholic hymns I like is “I Am the Bread of Life,” a very eucharistic hymn.

One of my favorites, also sung in many Protestant circles. Especially moving at the conclusion of the Eucharist or at a funeral/memorial service.

 

[manualman]

Madrid,

Your feedback on my post was interesting and might have merit if your observation matched reality. Unfortunately, protestant churches do not often die out quickly after they are abandoned by the faithful in favor of a new on-fire church. Instead, they linger for several (sometimes many) generations bereft of both sound teaching OR the sacraments. The poor folks who earnestly seek God and go to one of these places may never hear a clear presentation of the Good News since all those who believe it are hanging out at the Espresso bar at the local mega-church.

We have the same problem in some of our parishes, but at least the sacraments are there and our philosophy leaves hope that somebody new will move to town and start something up in the EXISTING parish. This is also part of why catholic priests are rotated around the parishes of the diocese every few years. It prevents cult of personality and minimizes the impact of ineffective priests.

The advantage you note that local small evangelical parishes have over big old mainline ones cuts both ways. The church might indeed choose to preach the Good News and trust God to provide the people and resources needed to carry on. On the other hand, living on the edge might also tempt the pastor to preach a version of christianity that omits the kind of ‘hard teachings’ that even lost Jesus some of his followers (then and now). That’s another problem I see in evangelicalism: All good news and no tough love. You don’t hear much about the Sheep and the Goats in evangelical sermons!

 

[Melchior]

I miss the Welch’s grape juice and overhead projectors.

 

[Brian_C]

Hey, I LIKED overhead projectors used by the pastor during his sermon as they were the first thing that actually kept me from drifting into deep thought about absolutely nothing for 30 minutes or so… Perhaps we could have them replace missalettes! I don’t know where you’d project in a Catholic Church, though… The preaching was actually good in the mega-church-ish Baptist church I attended before converting. Rather, it was the attitude of the congregation that bothered me…I would be glared at anytime I wasn’t dressed in a suit! I spent several hundred dollars making sure I looked right…

 

[Teakafrog]

How could I miss anything, when I have now found the Real Presence? He is my all, I don’t need anything else.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Madrid,Your feedback on my post was interesting and might have merit if your observation matched reality. Unfortunately, protestant churches do not often die out quickly after they are abandoned by the faithful in favor of a new on-fire church. Instead, they linger for several (sometimes many) generations bereft of both sound teaching OR the sacraments. The poor folks who earnestly seek God and go to one of these places may never hear a clear presentation of the Good News since all those who believe it are hanging out at the Espresso bar at the local mega-church.

Again, I think you are very insightful about some of the challenges facing the Evangelical church and I share some of your concerns.

A few thoughts:

The top 10 churches in America (in terms of membership at one congregation) are all Evangelical mega churches that didn’t exist 30 years ago. I think that is quite remarkable

I cannot think of one of these that is unorthodox in its beliefs. Many, perhaps sadly, don’t preach on the “tough” issues on Sundays, but they do tend to do so at other times (e.g. mid week bible studies)

Evangelicals actually do believe there are two sacraments that Jesus ordained: baptism and communion. I think these are probably the last thing to go. I understand that you don’t accept our sacrament of communion, but this is not something that generally disappears over time. If it is a problem, it is one that exists with all Evangelical churches.

The advantage you note that local small evangelical parishes have over big old mainline ones cuts both ways. The church might indeed choose to preach the Good News and trust God to provide the people and resources needed to carry on. On the other hand, living on the edge might also tempt the pastor to preach a version of christianity that omits the kind of ‘hard teachings’ that even lost Jesus some of his followers (then and now). That’s another problem I see in evangelicalism: All good news and no tough love. You don’t hear much about the Sheep and the Goats in evangelical sermons!/

One of the problems that I have been wrestling with an Evangelical is just this one. We have great, fired-up people, we are growing throughout the world and we have almost too many pastors relative to congregations. Yet, if it is simply “cheap grace” that we are marketing, what does it serve?

I am heartened by a few facts. One, as I mentioned above, the fastest growing churches are the most orthodox: Southern Baptists and Assembly of God. Lots of “tough” love in these churches.The liberal denominations that do preach a watered down gospel are declining. As an Evangelical, I believe that Christ is the head of the church and that the Holy Spirit guides each one of us to the truth. So, growing, orthodox Evangelical churches suggests many are listening to the Holy Spirit.

Another fact that is interesting: sometimes Evangelical churches stray from the truth, such as the Worldwide Church of God and the International Church of Christ. Yet, by the power of the Holy Spirit, both these former cult like churches have returned to orthodoxy. So the Holy Spirit is sovereign.

 

[djrakowski]

Evangelicals actually do believe there are two sacraments that Jesus ordained: baptism and communion. I think these are probably the last thing to go. I understand that you don’t accept our sacrament of communion, but this is not something that generally disappears over time. If it is a problem, it is one that exists with all Evangelical churches.

I’ve been to two large evangelical megachurches, and have read tons and tons of materials from others, and I’ve never seen the word ‘sacrament’ used to describe their practices of baptism and holy communion. Most often, if they’re described in any theological language at all, they’re called ‘ordinances.’

The word ‘sacrament’ actually means something to those who hold to sacramental theology. Here’s the definition from newadvent.org - “Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace, instituted by Christ for our sanctification.”

No evangelical church with which I’ve been associated has described baptism and holy communion this way, so it seems inaccurate to suggest that such churches offer any sacraments at all.

Another fact that is interesting: sometimes Evangelical churches stray from the truth, such as the Worldwide Church of God and the International Church of Christ. Yet, by the power of the Holy Spirit, both these former cult like churches have returned to orthodoxy. So the Holy Spirit is sovereign.

Orthodoxy according to whom? What is the minimum set of beliefs that must be agreed-upon in order to constitute orthodoxy? I’ve seen precious little doctrinal unity in Protestantism, and evangelicalism is no exception.

 

[rtconstant]

Did the World Wide Church of God" and the “International Church of Christ” teach an incorrect doctrine regarding the nature of Christ and the Trinity? Or are you meaning “orthodox” in a more generic sense of conservative theology? Just curious.

As to the sacraments in protestant churches I know that at least the more traditional evangelical churches (i.e. Southern Baptist and such) officially declare communion and baptism as sacraments. I think though most or at least many of the lay people don’t view them in this sense. This is likely due to the view of these things as purely symbolic. In today’s world things that are done for symbolic or traditional reasons are not typically viewed as having much value.

I think that view point of the lay people is probably makes it confusing to the average Catholic. For the most part churches whether protestant or catholic really don’t do a good job in educated their followers in their beliefs.

 

[djrakowski]

As to the sacraments in protestant churches I know that at least the more traditional evangelical churches (i.e. Southern Baptist and such) officially declare communion and baptism as sacraments.

I’ve just done a search of the Southern Baptist Convention’s website, and could find no references to sacraments in their statement of belief. In this link, they specifically refer to baptism and the Lord’s supper as ordinances. The word ‘sacraments’ is only included in a few documents on how to ‘witness’ to Catholic and Orthodox believers (a shame that they don’t recognize the validity of these two churches with valid apostolic succession).

 

[MariaG]

I miss the trust, as now that I go to the Catholic Church suddenly I am not to be trusted. People don’t want to talk to me, and are hesitant to talk about religion once I start giving them reasons for the Catholic faith and how following Jesus led me to it.

Now they act like I have done it out of selfish reasons, which is absolutely nuts. As if I gave up the sinful pleasures that weren’t sin in the Evangelical Church for fun? Whaaa?

Did I do it for fun, convenience, good music and great fellowship. It sure did feel great to go to the Evangelical Church but is that a good reason or a worldly reason?

It is certainly more difficult to be Catholic but rewarding as I have found the truth. No more ignoring history as everything supports the truth of Catholicism, heck almost every passage of the Bible comes alive to me now as it is so Catholic, I am astounded to see it and why didn’t I see it before. I have no idea, but it is all based on the faith tradition you read the Bible from.
Evangelicals read the Bible from a faith tradition that forces certain interpretations, but I certainly can say the same for Catholics. One is the same faith tradition as the Apostles one is fairly recent. One is 100% true the other contains about 90% truth.

In Christ
Scylla

I was going to say the music, but as I read your post, I realize this is the thing I too miss the most.

I miss people assuming I am telling the truth when I say I Love Christ.

There always seems to be qualifiers. Like when talking with the baptists, “Yes, one needs a good BIBLE Church” Implication, Catholic Church is not a good bible Church.

Assemby of God: “Yes, one needs a good church full of the Holy Spirit” Implicationm from the speaker, the Catholic Church does not have the Holy Sprit".

On and on. I miss the good fellowship with other denominations of Christians. When I was Protestant, these qualifications did not happen. We could just Praise Him together and let the differences in our beliefs be pushed aside as “non-essentials”.

We KNEW we did not agree on everything but we also knew we agreed that Christ was our savior and we were saved by His sacrifice for our sins. Now, as a Catholic, it seems as if many non-CAtholics are not able to do that, they first have “make sure” I am a Christian, and even then, this is not always believed. The lies about the Catholic Church, fostered by Satan, are so many that it seems, at times, impossible to overcome. They do not know that we believe or refuse to believe when told that we believe we are saved only by the Grace of God and Christ’ssacrifice for us.

Even when you explain what the Catholic Church believes, many do not think we know our beliefs and try to show us what Catholics really believe.

That never happened to me in the Protestant Churches.

I miss the Trust, too.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Did the World Wide Church of God" and the “International Church of Christ” teach an incorrect doctrine regarding the nature of Christ and the Trinity? Or are you meaning “orthodox” in a more generic sense of conservative theology? Just curious.

As to the sacraments in protestant churches I know that at least the more traditional evangelical churches (i.e. Southern Baptist and such) officially declare communion and baptism as sacraments. I think though most or at least many of the lay people don’t view them in this sense. This is likely due to the view of these things as purely symbolic. In today’s world things that are done for symbolic or traditional reasons are not typically viewed as having much value.

I think that view point of the lay people is probably makes it confusing to the average Catholic. For the most part churches whether protestant or catholic really don’t do a good job in educated their followers in their beliefs.

WWCG denied the trinity as well as a number of other things such as extreme legalism. A truly inspiring story about their change to orthodoxy can be found here: wcg.org/lit/AboutUs/history.htm

The International Church of Christ believed they were the only “true” church and practices a number of cult-like practices.

Denying the Trinity is the first sign of a cult. Hopefully, someday the mormons and JWs will repent as gracefully as the WWCG did.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

On and on. I miss the good fellowship with other denominations of Christians. When I was Protestant, these qualifications did not happen. We could just Praise Him together and let the differences in our beliefs be pushed aside as “non-essentials”.

We KNEW we did not agree on everything but we also knew we agreed that Christ was our savior and we were saved by His sacrifice for our sins. Now, as a Catholic, it seems as if many non-CAtholics are not able to do that, they first have “make sure” I am a Christian, and even then, this is not always believed. The lies about the Catholic Church, fostered by Satan, are so many that it seems, at times, impossible to overcome. They do not know that we believe or refuse to believe when told that we believe we are saved only by the Grace of God and Christ’ssacrifice for us.

Even when you explain what the Catholic Church believes, many do not think we know our beliefs and try to show us what Catholics really believe.

That never happened to me in the Protestant Churches.

I miss the Trust, too.

I think a lot of the mistrust and lack of fellowship between Catholics and Evangelicals is due to vocabulary. We Evangelicals use phrases like “are you born again” or “are you saved” that most Catholics don’t really use, even if they are. We Evangelicals may come from a few hundred different denominations or non at all, but we all talk alike, so the differences seem minimal. We read the same books, listen to the same music and, of course, memorise the same Bible verses.

Peter Kreeft is a great bridge builder between these two worlds, by the way, in helping to explain Catholic vocabulary to Evangelicals.

In my experience with many ecumenical Evangelical/Catholic groups, what creates trust is group prayer and group praise. Catholic Charismatics seem to do this quite naturally, and consequently quickly find common ground with Evangelicals, even non-charismatic ones.

A lot of interdenominational groups such as Campus Crusade, Billy Graham, Prison Fellowship, the Alpha Course and Promise Keepers have been welcoming of Catholics (and Cursillo welcoming of Protestants) and this is helping to reduce the mistrust that you still experience, I hope.

 

[djrakowski]

WWCG denied the trinity as well as a number of other things such as extreme legalism. A truly inspiring story about their change to orthodoxy can be found here: wcg.org/lit/AboutUs/history.htm

The International Church of Christ believed they were the only “true” church and practices a number of cult-like practices.

Denying the Trinity is the first sign of a cult. Hopefully, someday the mormons and JWs will repent as gracefully as the WWCG did.

You’ve shown a few examples of what you believe to be unorthodox, but what do you use as your standard for measuring orthodoxy (which means “right belief”)?

In other words, what doctrines must a church or individual Christian affirm in order to be regarded as orthodox?

 

[Brian_C]

The SBC has the following on Baptism and "Lord’s Supper:

VII. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord’s Supper.
The Lord’s Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.
Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.

 

[djrakowski]

The SBC has the following on Baptism and "Lord’s Supper:

Thanks for posting the text, Brian. I believe the link in my earlier post will take you to this definition. Nonetheless, it seems like the SBC doesn’t consider these acts to be sacraments.

 

[MariaG]

I think a lot of the mistrust and lack of fellowship between Catholics and Evangelicals is due to vocabulary. We Evangelicals use phrases like “are you born again” or “are you saved” that most Catholics don’t really use, even if they are. We Evangelicals may come from a few hundred different denominations or non at all, but we all talk alike, so the differences seem minimal. We read the same books, listen to the same music and, of course, memorise the same Bible verses.

Peter Kreeft is a great bridge builder between these two worlds, by the way, in helping to explain Catholic vocabulary to Evangelicals.

In my experience with many ecumenical Evangelical/Catholic groups, what creates trust is group prayer and group praise. Catholic Charismatics seem to do this quite naturally, and consequently quickly find common ground with Evangelicals, even non-charismatic ones.

A lot of interdenominational groups such as Campus Crusade, Billy Graham, Prison Fellowship, the Alpha Course and Promise Keepers have been welcoming of Catholics (and Cursillo welcoming of Protestants) and this is helping to reduce the mistrust that you still experience, I hope.

Yes I agree all those things help. Billy Graham has been a HUGE help. Maybe it is because I live in a small town, but here is an example of what kind of prejudice we have to overcome here.

Our small town of 6 thousand has/had (not sure how active the new priest is, old one was very active), a group of pastors from a good number of the Christian churches in town meet together once a month (week?). This included the CAtholic CHurch.

The members of the churches would also get together on days like “world day of prayer” and invite all the different denominations to services in the different churches each year. One year it would be the Congregational Church, next the Assembly, etc.

The year it was held at the Catholic Church, about half of the pastors refused to come. And the other half freely acknowledged that they were under heat from the members of their church for coming, since the CAtholic Church was not “really even Christian”.

It is a good thing to foster ecumenical dialogue, but one first has to agree that one is talking to a fellow Christian for the dialogue to go anywhere. It IS getting better, but maybe it is because that since we KNOW that all the pastors participated before, the absence is noted when you are talking numbers less than 50 (I actually think it was 26 pastors who got together and only 10 showed up at the service when it was held at the Catholic Church.)

But you are correct, those things do help.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Brian_C]

Oops! Sorry! While I’m posting your links, here’s a direct link for everyone to what you mentioned earlier about witnessing to Catholics.

sbc.net/redirect.asp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Enamb%2Enet%2Fatf%2Fcf%2F%7BCDA250E8%2D8866%2D4236%2D9A0C%2DC646DE153446%7D%2FBB%5FRoman%5FCatholicism%2Epdf&key=sacrament&title=Roman+Catholicism&ndx=SBC%2C+IMB%2C+NAMB%2C+ANNUITY%2C+LIFEWAY%2C+WMU%2C+ERLC%2C+SEMINARIES

 

[djrakowski]

Oops! Sorry! While I’m posting your links, here’s a direct link for everyone to what you mentioned earlier about witnessing to Catholics.

sbc.net/redirect.asp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Enamb%2Enet%2Fatf%2Fcf%2F%7BCDA250E8%2D8866%2D4236%2D9A0C%2DC646DE153446%7D%2FBB%5FRoman%5FCatholicism%2Epdf&key=sacrament&title=Roman+Catholicism&ndx=SBC%2C+IMB%2C+NAMB%2C+ANNUITY%2C+LIFEWAY%2C+WMU%2C+ERLC%2C+SEMINARIES

Oh, no problem on posting the information twice - I’ve done the same thing in other threads!

While I applaud the seriousness with which they’re addressing the differences between their theology and ours, I find it sad that they consider Catholics and the Catholic Church as a mission field. That’s not exactly a friendly Christian witness, IMO.