What do you tell someone who accuses you of worshipping statues?

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mab23 said:
I usually say the statues help with a visuals. and we only pray to the saints in asking for their intercession, and the statues just help with remembering their lives and what they did. but Catholics only worship God the Trinity anything else is Idolatry
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God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
 
QuickCat said:
Kissing! Bowing to! Prostrating themselves before the statue! Kneeling and praying to! Sure looked like worshipping to me.
QC
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[BIBLEDRB]Jos 5:12-15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Dan 8:17[/BIBLEDRB]

So, do you think Daniel and Joshua went to hell for worshipping an angel? After all, they were prostrating themselves and praying. Of course they didn’t–they did not intend to worship the creature as if it was God.

Only God can judge the intentions of a person. Are you God? No. Then why are you giving yourself reverence that is due only to God?
 
leondaus said:
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
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Actually, Paul in Hebrews is quite clear that one’s holiness matters in terms of both salvation and the efficacy of his or her prayers:

[BIBLEDRB]Heb 6:4-12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Heb 10:26-35[/BIBLEDRB]

James says the same thing:
[BIBLEDRB]James 5:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Elsewhere, Paul holds up Elijah as an example of one who is holy, and thus, whose prayers are answered:

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 11:2[/BIBLEDRB]

You say you have equal access to God as compared with Elijah. So, are you as holy as Elijah? If you think so, then you might want to see when your church had its last funeral. As for Elijah, he was raptured without dying. (2 Kings 2:1-15) Oh, and he wasn’t a member of your church; in fact, he was a Jew.

With that wakeup call in place, let’s take your message apart:
There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone.
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You’ve already admitted that God only answers prayer according to His Will (1 John 5:14-15), so it sounds like you are claiming to know the will of God as much as anyone who is in Heaven. Obviously, you do not know what God’s will is. However, those in Heaven DO know His will, and even those on Earth who are holier know His will better than do other people:

[BIBLEDRB]Rev 4:1-2[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Ephesians 1:17[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor. 13:12[/BIBLEDRB]

Obviously, you need to get to know God better, or else find someone to pray for you who does know God’s will better than you. Which brings us to your next claim…
There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers.
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This is wrong for very, very many reasons which I have explained in detail in this post. And I don’t see how you can read these verses…

[BIBLEDRB]Rom 15:30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Lk 16:19-30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]

… and say what you just said with a straight face.
 
leondaus said:
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God’s throne than we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
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So why does James teach us that ‘the prayers of a righteous [as opposed to an unrighteous] man avail much’? Certainly makes clear that who is doing the praying can matter very much indeed.
 
JMartyr73340 said:
My use of the word “strict” was simply meant to indicate that when it comes to this issue there is a wide variety of Protestant opinion. Some are more “strict” on this issue than others in terms of what they allow. If the usage is incorrect, then my apologies. However, I think the meaning was clear. Nit-picking at the language a person used to express his position does not make your position more compelling.
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I wasn’t nit-picking, and if the meaning were clear, I wouldn’t have responded. The position which I provided, ironically, was in support of the use of icons, etc.

Jon
 
With respect to the original question, another line of argumentation I have heard is that the ban on statues was given to the Israelites in the OT, but was later lifted when God showed Himself to us in Christ’s coming.

Also, as a general thing, it is often useful to clarify to outsiders that, as Catholics, we uphold those rules given in the OT which the early Church upheld, and drop all others: Homosexuality is still forbidden because the early Church also forbid it, but the food restrictions God gave the Israelites in the OT have been given up. Since early Christians used pictures in worship, as can be seen in the catacombs, that means the ban on statues and images was relaxed.

All those rules in the OT were given to an “immature” people to prepare them for Christ’s coming. Many were overly strict, but that was the only way to keep OT Israelites from sin. In a way, you could say the heavenly Father was acting like any other parent who forbids his children all alcohol in any circumstance until they are old enough to know where, when, how much.

Since Christ’s coming, we are “adult” with respect to the Faith. We have all the knowledge we need (the fullness of Revelation), but that also requires us to act in consequence, and that includes the maturity to walk a fine line: Statues are ok in principle, but each and every one of us is responsible in conscience for making sure he doesn’t overdo it when it comes to venerating his favorite saint, at which point it could become idol worshipping if we are not careful.

Still, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have statues and images, given their positive attributes (reminding us of the saints and the examples they gave us so we can immitate them, helping us focus when we pray,…)
 
QuickCat said:
If you have the opportunity go to Walshingsham, England sometime. I was there several years ago and witnessed busloads of dear souls worshipping that statue of Mary.
Grace and Peace,
QC
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I wonder if you believe these folks are worshipping a box of kleenex?

 
Hi.🙂 If you consider what the Bible says by going in context and history (not cursory), what God forbids is the worship of the images in place of Him (as if the image itself is “god” and needs to be worshipped) and carved images of false gods like Baal and the golden calf . Both falls under the sin of idolatry.This is because during the time of Exodus and Deuteronomy (even the time of Jesus), many Jews who were following the neighboring countries worship pagan gods carved in the form of man, woman, animals, etc. And yeah, God Himself instructed Moses to carve images: Ex25:17-22 “Make two cherubims (angels)…shall have their wings spread out above…with their faces looking toward the propitiatory.” Nm21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a seraph (bronze serpent) and mount it on a pole.” Hope that helps.🙂
 
Our Lady of the Armchair. Isn’t there a shrine to her somewhere in Russia? 😉
 
Kevin_B said:
Someone told me the other day that Catholics are idolaters because we kneel in front of statues to pray, which means we are worshipping the statue.

I told him that meant kneeling by your bed to pray is worshipping your bed, and praying at the table before meals must be worshipping your food. That actually helped him understand that you aren’t always praying to whatever is in front of you, and I used the opportunity to tell him that we worship God, but we simply ask saints to worship God on our behalf.

Of course this individual was not converted, but I honestly think he has more understanding of our faith than before. I always find it useful to use humor to get people to see your side of an issue. I just thought I’d like to share that, and see what others have experienced in issues like this.
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I would suggest re-reading the ten commandments, we are not supposed to worship false idols or graven images.
 
Millie123 said:
I think your definition of worship is a little eschewed.

Similarily,
When I pray my Rosary, I like to do it in front of a statue of the Blessed Mother. I like to pray in front of the statue because it helps me to keep my mind focused on the mysteries. I pray the Sorrowful mysteries on my knees and when I’m deep in meditation of the mysteries, I’m sometimes moved to tears. The mystery of the Carrying of the Cross has moved me to tears. I don’t know what it is about that mystery, it always fills me with thoughts of God’s incredible love for us.

Anyways, I suppose that any protestant or evangelical can come into my room during that mystery and do you know what they will see?
A woman on her knees, praying in front in a statue of the Blessed Mother, crying.
And I suppose that they would erroneously come to the conclusion of,
“why is that woman worshiping that statue?” When in reality, I’m thinking about my Lord carrying his cross up to Calvary for me, about to be hung on a cross for me, and so loved me that he gave up his life for me.

I just want to reiterate what other people have told you.
Don’t pretend to know the hearts of people when they pray.
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That was beautiful, my friend. I once was a protestant and I know firsthand how they think, especially when it comes to the catholic faith. Its so sad that they believe all these lies and are missing out on alot. I too love to pray the rosary and love the sorrowful mysteries. But just wanted to say, thanks for writing what you did above, because it couldnt have been said any better or clearer than that! 🙂
 
PRmerger said:
I wonder if you believe these folks are worshipping a box of kleenex?
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Good example. It is true.
These folks are not worshiping a box of kleenex.

It is also true that we don’t worship a statue made of human hand when we bow before an idol.
Provided we consider the statue the same way one considers that box.
1 Corinthians 8:4

New International Version (NIV)

4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”

But if one have the idol in the heart and thinks that the idol is accepting his worship or idol represent God whom he is worshiping, then it becomes an idol worship.
If this is also not idol worship, then whatelse is idol worship which God disgusts?
 
VoiceOfBible said:
But if one have the idol in the heart and thinks that the idol is accepting his worship or idol represent God whom he is worshiping, then it becomes an idol worship.
If this is also not idol worship, then whatelse is idol worship which God disgusts?
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So, what do you think about the early Christians in the catacombs, who celebrated the Holy Mass on top of the martyr’s sarcophages and decorated the niches in which these were placed with pictures (google “catacomb art”)? Were they also worshipping idols?

(BTW, a side point: these people didn’t even have the Bible as we know it… So where do they get their Faith from?)
 
VoiceOfBible said:
But if one have the idol in the heart and thinks that the idol is accepting his worship or idol represent God whom he is worshiping, then it becomes an idol worship.
If this is also not idol worship, then whatelse is idol worship which God disgusts?
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Indeed.

And through that comment we have disposed of the objection you had to Catholicism regarding praying before statues, yes?
 
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