What do you tell someone who accuses you of worshipping statues?

[Truthstalker]

Only if they have divorced themselves from the teachings of the Church.

Or never knew it.

Have you ever been present at the Divine Liturgy that had the congregation kneel before a statue of a saint?

No. This would bother me. I’ve looked at Orthodoxy and read their argumentation regarding icons and idolatry. At this point I am not convinced by either side. I’ve watched videos of the DL and was on an Orthodox forum for a while. I’m staying away from Orthodox services until I have some resolution. On their website the local OC warns visitors not to cross their legs during services, because that offends them. With that attitude I am even more disinclined to pay them a visit.

 

[Truthstalker]

Thank you for the explanation, which is more than the church provides on their website.

There are cultural norms for any church that we take for granted, because we are used to certain things and understand what they mean - whether headscarves or their lack, the bell being rung, genuflection on entering a pew, or their absence. The DL for me is a completely foreign experience, as a child of the West. I don’t have a good reason to go anyway. I would probably misinterpret and offend, or accuse, and I don’t need, and they don’t need, a long, dragged-out discussion in anger with another ignorant Protestant. We don’t kneel, for example, and kneeling to a statue would be Way Out There. No frame of reference except crossing the line of what is safe and normal into the possibly dangerous unknown.

I’d like to refer back to Romans 14. Christians were eating meat that had been from animals that had been sacrificed to idols. That bothered others. I think Paul meant what he said, and so sometimes I must just agree to disagree and follow his wise advice as if it were, uh, a divine mandate. Statues really bother some Christians and the fact it bothers them bothers others. I haven’t looked into the iconoclastic controversies enough to discuss THEM - but it was a big deal, and I think it left the Orthodox with icons and the Latins with statues and both sides disagreeing with the other as to what fair and right practice was.

I was recently handed a pamphlet from an OPC church that does not believe in instrumental music. They are solely human voice, along with the Orthodox and John Calvin. I see that disagreement as along the same lines as the use of statues.

 

[Truthstalker]

This calls to mind a scene I was in years ago. A co-worker’s wife had tragically died and the whole office went to her funeral. It was held in one of those huge, solemn, silent , soaring, Catholic churches that has an otherworldly quiet that seems beyond the rational. I sat down, alone, thinking things like the silence was more full of noise than noise is full of shouting, and the emptiness was full. Timelessness. Eternity. Quiet. My soul was calming and I was thinking there are indeed things beyond the day, beyond this present moment of darkness and loss, and our hopes can be filled. Stuff like that.

In came two co-workers. They were talking loudly about the ball game the day before and arguing about who would win the next game. They sat down two rows behind me and kept it up, even after the service started. I winced for them. I could have shot them. I wanted to crawl under the pew, to get away, to melt into the floor and flee from the scene through the sewers if I had to. But one I know was attending a church where that behavior was perfectly normal. He was acting as he always acted at church, and the idea of silence in a sanctuary was foreign to him. Cultural differences.

 

[Truthstalker]

I noticed this morning our Church has the Christmas tree up already and the manger scene is sure to follow soon, with little, uh, statues, of Joseph and Mary and the Infant…

I would be totally bewildered if someone came up to me and accused me of worshipping them.

In my adult class we just happened to be on Exodus 20:2 and I managed to a discussion going about statues in church. Two elders were present, neither of whom had a problem with statues in church “but what matters is what you do with them”, which is where it was left when we moved on to something else.

 

[Truthstalker]

It’s a good question as to why no usher, deacon, priest or someone else didn’t ask them to keep it down. Maybe they were busy with more important things.

 

[VoiceOfBible]

What then means worshiping idols?

If Kissing, garlanding is not, then what extend of worship does God hates and condemns in the OT?

 

[PRmerger]

What then means worshiping idols?

If Kissing, garlanding is not, then what extend of worship does God hates and condemns in the OT?

Placing idols before God is worshipping them.
Offering sacrifices to idols is worshipping them.
Believing that the statues are actually gods and then kneeling before, kissing, garlanding them is worshipping them.

 

[Highwayhound]

Someone told me the other day that Catholics are idolaters because we kneel in front of statues to pray, which means we are worshipping the statue.

I told him that meant kneeling by your bed to pray is worshipping your bed, and praying at the table before meals must be worshipping your food. That actually helped him understand that you aren’t always praying to whatever is in front of you, and I used the opportunity to tell him that we worship God, but we simply ask saints to worship God on our behalf.

Of course this individual was not converted, but I honestly think he has more understanding of our faith than before. I always find it useful to use humor to get people to see your side of an issue. I just thought I’d like to share that, and see what others have experienced in issues like this.

Wow, I would be envious of your creativity and humor, but that would be sinful. So, I will simply let you know that I will be sharing this post with my confirmation class the next time we meet. This will give my dear young friends a simple basis to answer any questions about statue worshipping that might be thrown their way.

Thanks and God bless

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What then means worshiping idols?

If Kissing, garlanding is not, then what extend of worship does God hates and condemns in the OT?

It is not. What God condemns is the worship of something as God which is NOT God.

Do you decorate the streets of your town with flags and lights for Veterans Day? Are you worshipping the veterans? Or the streets?

Do you kiss your wife or husband, and give them rings or necklaces? Are you worshipping them?

Do you put your family pictures into a lovely ornate frame, hang in a place of honor in the house, maybe put a floral arrangement underneath? Are you worshipping your family?

I guess common sense just isn’t very common any more.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Numbers 21:6-9 (NRSV)

Then the Lord sent poisonous* serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, ‘We have sinned by speaking against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord to take away the serpents from us.’ So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a poisonous* serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten shall look at it and live.’ So Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole; and whenever a serpent bit someone, that person would look at the serpent of bronze and live.

So, VoiceOfBible, is the LORD an idolater?

 

[Mintaka]

Re: an earlier question about why one would decorate church with statues, when Mass is directed toward God –

Mass is celebrated by the entire Church, along with the saints and angels of the Church Triumphant, with Jesus as the actual High Priest still presenting His sacrifice on Calvary to God, until the end of the world.

As with the Temple, a church is supposed to be a tiny image of the universe, both the material universe and Heaven’s eternity; or just an image of Heaven. God is enthroned in the Tabernacle; there’s an altar; and through various pictures, we are often shown that the saints and angels stand all around us. (In an Eastern church, this is done with icons and the iconostasis, as well as wall paintings; in the West, it’s wallpaintings, paintings, images on vestments and altar frontals, architectural details, stained glass, and statues.)

If you look at a statue or an icon or a wall painting during Mass, that’s not a distraction. It’s part of the whole point of Mass. It’s part of the teaching materials, part of the mystical experience of being One Church throughout all ages of the world, and throughout eternity in Heaven, and in eternal life yet to come. It is a foretaste of how we will live together as saints after the Resurrection.

Mass is supposed to help us get eternal life. Pictures of saints and angels remind us that we have a life waiting for us, and a “cloud of witnesses” cheering us on.

 

[Truthstalker]

Numbers 21:6-9 (NRSV)

Then the Lord sent poisonous* serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, ‘We have sinned by speaking against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord to take away the serpents from us.’ So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a poisonous* serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten shall look at it and live.’ So Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole; and whenever a serpent bit someone, that person would look at the serpent of bronze and live.

So, VoiceOfBible, is the LORD an idolater?

For my part I do not see any indication or connection to idolatry here. This was after all a prefiguring of Christ, Who became sin on our behalf. There is no indication that the power to heal was innate to the image.

 

[Truthstalker]

Re: an earlier question about why one would decorate church with statues, when Mass is directed toward God –

Mass is celebrated by the entire Church, along with the saints and angels of the Church Triumphant, with Jesus as the actual High Priest still presenting His sacrifice on Calvary to God, until the end of the world.

As with the Temple, a church is supposed to be a tiny image of the universe, both the material universe and Heaven’s eternity; or just an image of Heaven. God is enthroned in the Tabernacle; there’s an altar; and through various pictures, we are often shown that the saints and angels stand all around us. (In an Eastern church, this is done with icons and the iconostasis, as well as wall paintings; in the West, it’s wallpaintings, paintings, images on vestments and altar frontals, architectural details, stained glass, and statues.)

If you look at a statue or an icon or a wall painting during Mass, that’s not a distraction. It’s part of the whole point of Mass. It’s part of the teaching materials, part of the mystical experience of being One Church throughout all ages of the world, and throughout eternity in Heaven, and in eternal life yet to come. It is a foretaste of how we will live together as saints after the Resurrection.

Mass is supposed to help us get eternal life. Pictures of saints and angels remind us that we have a life waiting for us, and a “cloud of witnesses” cheering us on.

I like this post. That’s not saying I agree or disagree, it’s just that I like this post. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Cat_Herder]

For my part I do not see any indication or connection to idolatry here. This was after all a prefiguring of Christ, Who became sin on our behalf. There is no indication that the power to heal was innate to the image.

And thus the pious use of images gives worship to God. Thank you.

 

[Truthstalker]

And thus the pious use of images gives worship to God. Thank you.

Wrong. What I wrote in no way endorses the pious use of images.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

For my part I do not see any indication or connection to idolatry here. This was after all a prefiguring of Christ, Who became sin on our behalf. There is no indication that the power to heal was innate to the image.

Right --and no Catholic is going around claiming that statues have any power whatsoever innate to themselves.

If some people who are ‘visually oriented’ find them to be helpful to focus on God, great.

Here’s another item to ponder --music. Now, music many Protestants enjoy and find it helps them to focus on God, right? Think of all those Praise and Worship songs which talk about God, but themselves aren’t really God. They might use some Scriptural passages but again they aren’t Scripture themselves.

Some other Protestants frown on music --even the human voice alone–at a religious service as both unnecessary and distracting- but this is a small minority.

So why is it that many Protestants enjoy music in their liturgy (which is when it comes right down to it unnecessary --and which some people find off putting -especially when sung loudly, off key, and accompanied by twangy guitars and bongo drums, or ‘amped to the max’ with keyboards and synthesizer–) but frown on visual images?

That puzzles me. heaven knows some of the musicians think they are god , and some of the musicians and groups get more focus on THEM and ‘their music’ than the actual word of God does-- but nobody is demanding that Praise and Worship and indeed music itself be banned from churches lest it lead the faithful astray. . .why not?

 

[Truthstalker]

Right --and no Catholic is going around claiming that statues have any power whatsoever innate to themselves.

If some people who are ‘visually oriented’ find them to be helpful to focus on God, great.

Here’s another item to ponder --music. Now, music many Protestants enjoy and find it helps them to focus on God, right? Think of all those Praise and Worship songs which talk about God, but themselves aren’t really God. They might use some Scriptural passages but again they aren’t Scripture themselves.

Some other Protestants frown on music --even the human voice alone–at a religious service as both unnecessary and distracting- but this is a small minority.

So why is it that many Protestants enjoy music in their liturgy (which is when it comes right down to it unnecessary --and which some people find off putting -especially when sung loudly, off key, and accompanied by twangy guitars and bongo drums, or ‘amped to the max’ with keyboards and synthesizer–) but frown on visual images?

That puzzles me. heaven knows some of the musicians think they are god , and some of the musicians and groups get more focus on THEM and ‘their music’ than the actual word of God does-- but nobody is demanding that Praise and Worship and indeed music itself be banned from churches lest it lead the faithful astray. . .why not?

I would not equate the two. Take the attitude in the OT with respect to both. In the psalms, for example, are repeated exhortations to praise the Lord with all sorts of instruments. The exhortations concerning avoiding graven images in worship are numerous. This would suggest the direction we should go with each - more towards worship with instrument, away from anything suggestive of idols. Please note the careful phraseology: statues are fine, but not as objects of worship. I think we agree here.

The dispute seems to revolve around what constitutes worship. Some might argue that certain bodily motion in and of itself, without regard to motive, can be worship. (name removed by moderator) brought that up concerning the Orthodox, and I have heard discussion of yoga as intrinsically Hindu worship in the positions, regardless of intent. One of the Greek verbs for worship, proskuneo, literally means to ‘kiss towards’. I think we want to be careful of anything that might accidentally lead us into inadvertent worship, and, to paraphrase Paul in Romans 14, we need to strike the right balance between Christian liberty and the consciences of our brothers and sisters, and allow for their weaknesses.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Wrong. What I wrote in no way endorses the pious use of images.

You said it was okay to use the image of the serpent because it was a type of Christ. So you’re locked into saying the same thing about the angel statues in the Temple being types of angels. (1 Kings 6:23-35, 7:25, 36) Human saints outrank angels in Heaven. (Matthew 22:30; 1 Cor. 6:3) So you say it’s okay to venerate an image as a type of GOD (rank #1), and also to venerate an image as a type of an angel (rank #3). Obviously it is then fine to venerate an image as a type of a saint (rank #2).

 

[Cat_Herder]

I think we want to be careful of anything that might accidentally lead us into inadvertent worship,

If something is inadvertent, it is not a sin. You cannot inadvertently, mistakenly or accidentally sin. It has to be willful and deliberate to constitute a sin.

Hebrews 10:26-27 (NRSV)
For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Since you hold your soul to a standard higher than God’s, when there is no standard higher than God’s, you are holding your soul to a nonexistent standard.In other words, you are scrupulous.

 

[VoiceOfBible]

Placing idols before God is worshipping them.
Offering sacrifices to idols is worshipping them.
Believing that the statues are actually gods and then kneeling before, kissing, garlanding them is worshipping them.

I completely agree with this.
If Catholics are not doing these, then its fine.
But I think the Church needs to make it more clear to people.

Mass is celebrated by the entire Church, along with the saints and angels of the Church Triumphant, with Jesus as the actual High Priest still presenting His sacrifice on Calvary to God, until the end of the world.

I couldn’t understand what this mean. As far as I know Jesus sacrificed Himself once for all and is at the right hand of the Father interceding for us.
But is Jesus still presenting any sacrifice.
Actually the sacrifice was presented on the day Jesus died on the cross. Am I right

Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Offered Himself - past tense