What do you think about guitars during mass?

[FrancisB]

Touché!* You’re right. And I’d love to learn to chant, btw. So here I am, first in line. Teach away.

You’d have to come up to upstate NY, which is a haul from Alabama, but our schola usually rehearses after the regular choir rehearsal on Wednesday. In lieu of that, there are a lot of good resources on the web.

Back to the guitar, though, I have to wonder how anyone ever thought to bring the darn thing into the church in the first place, other than for some extreme event like what happened the night “Silent Night” was written. Even then, it seems that a cappella chant would have been the proper course, but I suppose on Christmas they wanted some instrumental accompaniment and were forced to use what was available. This, I suppose, is forgiveable, but certainly does not justify it being used on a weekly basis.

 

[FrancisB]

The same principles are upheld. Yet, the latter Church documents do not mention instruments specifically by name. Rather the Church allows the principle of subsidiarity to guide the judgment of those who best know each culture, the local bishop. Today’s culture is not the same as it was in 1903 and papal authority on such disciplinary issues ends with his death and is passed on to the next in line. If my bishop or the Church specifies such changes, then I would surely be willing to follow that. In fact, it would take a great burden off of me. Until then, I have to do what I have to do.

Are you seriously suggesting that if every successive pope does not write a motu proprio to condemn the use of guitars and pianos that they become acceptable for mass as soon as the pope dies? At any rate, the writings of the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship are not subject to the death of the pope; they are binding. And what is secular at its inception remains secular. The guitar is a secular instrument. It was created as one (for folk music, which is secular in nature). It continues to be one. The advent of hymnals with guitar chords and Christian Rock doesn’t make the instrument any less secular. The same can be said of the piano. It was created as a secular instrument for use in Classical Music when the other keyboard instruments of the day were found lacking. It remains a secular instrument. The harpsichord was also a secular instrument. That’s why the Baroque masters substituted the organ for it when they wrote bassi continui for sacred music.

Do you think it coincidence that these things suddenly appeared in mass only after the prevailing wisdom was “anything goes”? What is secular remains secular. It does not become sacred because people brought it to church illicitly. Nor do the rules change when a pope dies. If Benedict XVI were to decree that guitars and pianos were now allowed to be used in the mass, then it would be so, and I would quietly accept this and pray for a return to the musical treasure of our past. He has not, and I doubt he will. God alone knows what who our next pope will be or what he will decree. In the meantime, I think it’s very clear that guitars and pianos are not allowed.

 

[Ailina]

Are you seriously suggesting that if every successive pope does not write a motu proprio to condemn the use of guitars and pianos that they become acceptable for mass as soon as the pope dies? At any rate, the writings of the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship are not subject to the death of the pope; they are binding. And what is secular at its inception remains secular. The guitar is a secular instrument. It was created as one (for folk music, which is secular in nature). It continues to be one. The advent of hymnals with guitar chords and Christian Rock doesn’t make the instrument any less secular. The same can be said of the piano. It was created as a secular instrument for use in Classical Music when the other keyboard instruments of the day were found lacking. It remains a secular instrument. The harpsichord was also a secular instrument. That’s why the Baroque masters substituted the organ for it when they wrote bassi continui for sacred music.

Do you think it coincidence that these things suddenly appeared in mass only after the prevailing wisdom was “anything goes”? What is secular remains secular. It does not become sacred because people brought it to church illicitly. Nor do the rules change when a pope dies. If Benedict XVI were to decree that guitars and pianos were now allowed to be used in the mass, then it would be so, and I would quietly accept this and pray for a return to the musical treasure of our past. He has not, and I doubt he will. God alone knows what who our next pope will be or what he will decree. In the meantime, I think it’s very clear that guitars and pianos are not allowed.

How can you say they are not allowed when they ARE allowed? Most masses I have attended since I was born have utilized guitars, drums, pianos, violins…and rarely organs. In fact, my current church does not even have an organ.

Even David urged the playing of tambourines, dancing and harps in his worship of God. Those were all secular instruments in his time, yet it appears God found them pleasing.

 

[Disciple96]

How can you say they are not allowed when they ARE allowed? Most masses I have attended since I was born have utilized guitars, drums, pianos, violins…and rarely organs. In fact, my current church does not even have an organ.

Even David urged the playing of tambourines, dancing and harps in his worship of God. Those were all secular instruments in his time, yet it appears God found them pleasing.

Once again I think we are straying from the excellent point FrancisB made. It is not about what some people have allowed or insisted upon or what has happened in the past. It is about what the Church allows. Not the local church. The Church.

This whole issue (and thread) is really symptomatic of a much larger problem, I think: the confusion among Catholics as to the role of the Church and what her authority actually means. We might also note that it pleased Christ to found His Church, establishing Peter as her visible head, to rule us in matters of faith and morals, and, might I mention, liturgy. We are to listen and obey. Saint Faustina makes this point so well in her diary. She obeyed her confessor even when he contradicted some request made by Jesus Himself. And Jesus commended her for her obedience. To His priest! We should do likewise and listen to the Bishops, especially our Holy Fathers, whether currently reigning or deceased.

(I’m pretty sure their authority does not come stamped with an expiration date or expire at the time of their death.)

 

[Disciple96]

You’d have to come up to upstate NY, which is a haul from Alabama, but our schola usually rehearses after the regular choir rehearsal on Wednesday. In lieu of that, there are a lot of good resources on the web.

Back to the guitar, though, I have to wonder how anyone ever thought to bring the darn thing into the church in the first place, other than for some extreme event like what happened the night “Silent Night” was written. …

I don’t know how it happened either but I have thought about it and I have a suggestion. I think it probably happened as a result of that somewhat unfortunate period in the Church’s not too-far-distant past when she was subjected to much misrepresentation and misinterpretation in the aftermath of Vatican II. And an equally unfortunate desire to indulge in false ecumenism, adopting Protestant music and worship styles along with some very unfortunate and (need I say it) most irreverent attitudes towards the Blessed Sacrament.

I literally grew up in the choir as a Methodist. Been singing in church since I was a wee bairn. I played the guitar for the choir and other ensembles during the worship service when that craze swept through the churches. In the never-ending attempt to make the Catholic Church a church like all the other churches, some people have gone too far. And, let’s face it, some people leave Protestantism…only to bring it right along with them, arguing about their likes and dislikes and how the Church needs to change and get with the times. Developing a Catholic view takes years and years and more than just the passing of time too. But there are those who never do develop this view. Who never can say that they have the mind of the Church, who don’t even see why they should or how sad it is that they don’t.

And who never are able to say with Saint Teresa, I am a daughter of the Church.

 

[FrancisB]

How can you say they are not allowed when they ARE allowed? Most masses I have attended since I was born have utilized guitars, drums, pianos, violins…and rarely organs. In fact, my current church does not even have an organ.

Even David urged the playing of tambourines, dancing and harps in his worship of God. Those were all secular instruments in his time, yet it appears God found them pleasing.

No, there is a difference between “allowed” and “happens anyway because no one punishes offenders.” These things have not only not been sanctioned by the church, they have been condemned. Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony, with the use of the organ are normative. Normative doesn’t mean “happens at most masses.” It means “supposed to happen most of the time, unless some good reason arises for it not to.” The fact that liturgical abuses exist does not excuse them. Things that were banned crept into many aspects of the mass. I recently was singing at a mass at a Catholic college where they used leavened bread for communion. That doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to do in the Latin Rite.

And King David was Jewish. Yes, I know, Jesus was too. We are not. We are not bound by what occurred in the Temple in Jerusalem and our masses are not based on what happened there. Beyond that, the harp, the tambourine, and the other instruments mentioned in the Bible are rarely what they at first appear. The references to the “trumpets” are likely not “trumpets” by our modern meaning either; they weren’t even made of metal, let alone that the valved trumpet wasn’t invented until the 19th Century. Similarly, the “harps” you mention are not the harps you likely envision if you’ve seen an orchestral harp, or even a little Irish harp. These instruments are only a few hundred years old.

What the instruments of the temple actually were is a matter of archaeology. It seems clear to me that in the case of the trumpet (the shofar, really), the instrument was very much tied to a sacred purpose. I can certainly envision the case being similar for the harp/psalter/whatever it was that David played, and for the “tambourine,” (which was probably a drum, not a tambourine with metal cymbals on it). There are some sacred traditions in the world where they have drums that are considered holy instruments. To that tradition, drums are sacred instruments, not secular ones. We are not of those faiths and traditions. To us, the voice is the holiest instrument because it was given to us by God to transmit his word and our prayers to him. Thereafter, the organ has been held in highest esteem by the Catholic Church.

Now I want you to understand something else: back in the 18th and 19th Centuries our true music (chant and polyphony) was also largely neglected. The great Classical and Romantic composers (Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Verdi, Puccini, &c.) were busy writing music for mass that mimicked opera, which was the popular secular music of its day. This was also not acceptable, which was the original impetus of the motu proprio I mentioned before. It’s not that modern secular music (rock, jazz, &c.) is not appropriate for mass; it’s that any secular music–including the instruments that are intimately tied to those styles-- is inappropriate for church. So don’t worry, the guitar, bass guitar, piano, and drum set end up right next to the old harpsichords, accordions, harmoniums, timpani, and every other secular instrument that composers have tried to bring into the mass. It’s an ancient problem, but the true solution has never changed.

 

[pnewton]

(I’m pretty sure their authority does not come stamped with an expiration date or expire at the time of their death.)

What a pope has promulgated as doctrine or morals does continue, and even that is subject to a better understanding. But the disciplinary authority does not continue. This is a necessity for the successors to adapt to changing times. Thus, even though Pope John XXII forbade polyphonic chant, another pope a few decades later allowed it. The organ, likewise, started as a base and profane instrument, was later allowed and now holds a position of pride in worship.

 

[Disciple96]

What a pope has promulgated as doctrine or morals does continue, and even that is subject to a better understanding. But the disciplinary authority does not continue. This is a necessity for the successors to adapt to changing times. Thus, even though Pope John XXII forbade polyphonic chant, another pope a few decades later allowed it. The organ, likewise, started as a base and profane instrument, was later allowed and now holds a position of pride in worship.

Hmmm… I wonder if his authority, or his decision would perhaps be a better way of putting it, holds unless and until a later Pope rules on it or decides to rescind it. I don’t think it automatically becomes null and void just because the Pope dies, does it? That wouldn’t make sense. We would always be starting from scratch.

So…has another Pope rescinded or changed or stated his decision to rescind the earlier decision and allow folk guitar Masses? I was under the impression that our current Holy Father is much concerned about the state of liturgy in general and music in the liturgy in particular. Cardinal Arinze has been pretty outspoken about the need for, not adapting to the times, but fostering reverence and proper ritual observance in our liturgies.

The organ has pride of place now because of the way it has been used and the association it now has with reverent worship. I suppose that if the guitar were to be able to achieve this status, it might one day be allowed too. But I’m not aware that it has or that any Pope has said that it has. If I’m wrong, would someone post a link to a document that says plainly that guitar and folk Masses (which is generally what “guitars at Mass” means) is now allowed and to be commended?

You know, if we just stuck with Gregorian Chant, we wouldn’t have all this trouble. I’d be happy with that. Nothing moves me more or helps me to really pray more than the heavenly sound that sounds just like what I imagine the Heavenly Liturgy sounds like. If that made any sense. It’s late. I’m going home. I’ve played enough for one night.

 

[pnewton]

Cardinal Arinze has been pretty outspoken about the need for, not adapting to the times, but fostering reverence and proper ritual observance in our liturgies.

The organ has pride of place now because of the way it has been used and the association it now has with reverent worship. I suppose that if the guitar were to be able to achieve this status, it might one day be allowed too.

It is not adapting to times that Cardinal Arinze has spoken of as much as the positive need for reverence. But since you bring him up, let us listen to what he says.

zenit.org/article-14564?l=english

There is room for music which respects that language, that culture, that people. There is room for that too, and the present books say that is a matter for the bishops’ conference, because it generally goes beyond the boundaries of one diocese.

“I will not now pronounce and say never guitar; that would be rather severe,” Cardinal Arinze added. "But much of guitar music may not be suitable at all for the Mass.

“The judgment would be left to the bishops of the area. It is wiser that way,” he pointed out. "Also, because there are other instruments in many countries which are not used in Italy or in Ireland, for instance

You also say:

I suppose that if the guitar were to be able to achieve this status, it might one day be allowed too

This statement begs the question and assumes it is not allowed, which I and many others do not agree with.

 

[Cat]

This thread has taken a frightening turn.

Do those of you who advocate that time stopped with Pope Pius X’s (and I don’t think he’s a saint yet, is he? So why Pope St. Pius X?) proclamations against all instruments except organ realize how you are undermining the authority of the Church?

Many MANY Catholic churches in the U.S., including churches under the most conservative and orthodox of bishops (mine is Thomas Doran), use piano and guitar out of necessity. Gregorian chant is not easy for amateurs to learn without a trained musician to help them.

What you are saying is that ALL of these churches are practicing an abuse, and ALL of these bishops are promulgating that abuse, and that the Mass liturgy is somehow “damaged” by it.

These ideas put doubts into the minds of many “weak” Catholics about the authority of their bishop and priests (and also into the minds of potential converts). These doubts prey upon these people and make them wonder how many other things are “wrong” with their bishop and church.

Eventually, many of these Catholics make decisions to disregard the Church entirely because they CANNOT TRUST what they are being told by the Catholic Church.

And seekers make decisions to not convert because they cannot TRUST the Church. After all, if almost every bishop in the U.S. is doing music wrong, the Church is ineffectual.

Do you honestly think that if piano and guitar and other instruments were “wrong,” that Pope Benedict XVI (and the other popes who came after Pope Pius X) would allow so many many churches to continue the wrong?

Do you honestly think that ALL those bishops would continue the wrong, too?

Is the Pope that wimpy? Are the bishops that corrupt?

You honestly think that YOU have interpreted the documents correctly, while all of these bishops, including bishops like mine who are have Doctoral Degrees in Canon Law, are WRONG?

OR…do you not think it is probably that it is YOU who are wrong in your interpretation of the teachings of the Catholic Church? By relying upon one Pope’s teachings regarding disciplines, you are disregarding all of the teachings about disciplines that have come from the Church since then.

I hope that everyone who reads this will trust their own priests and bishop, not a anonymous poster on a online board who tells us that all our churches are in the wrong by using pianos.

 

[Besetta]

Mass is not a place where anyone should notice or care about musical performance. Lots of Catholic church musicians want to be seen and heard and applauded. Musicians usually have big egos. Performing music that is dictated to them, in a standard way, without being regarding whatsoever or admired by parishioners, is not appealing to them.

 

[MetalMark]

Things have changed since the days of St. Pius X. What St. Pius X about wrote guitars wasn’t doctrine, it was custom during the time. It wasn’t an infallible document (and never could be, as it doesn’t deal with faith or morals).

Really though, why do we have to get so worked up over what instruments are used at Mass? There are much bigger problems in this world.

(and I don’t think he’s a saint yet, is he? So why Pope St. Pius X?)

He is very much a Saint. He was canonized in 1954. Writing “Pope St. Jimbob” is what is usually done to refer to a canonized Pope.

 

[Cat]

Mass is not a place where anyone should notice or care about musical performance. Lots of Catholic church musicians want to be seen and heard and applauded. Musicians usually have big egos. Performing music that is dictated to them, in a standard way, without being regarding whatsoever or admired by parishioners, is not appealing to them.

This is a very unfair and inaccurate assumption. Where did you get this idea anyway? It’s a terrible thing to say.

Church musicians are there to serve God and His people, and they will cheerfully play or sing what is given to them by the proper authority.

I’m sure there are exceptions. But I’m 52 years old, and I’ve been playing the piano in churches since I was a child, and in all those years, I’ve only met a few church musicians with an “ego.” Everyone else is humble.

 

[FrancisB]

This thread has taken a frightening turn. Do those of you who advocate that time stopped with Pope Pius X’s (and I don’t think he’s a saint yet, is he? So why Pope St. Pius X?) proclamations against all instruments except organ realize how you are undermining the authority of the Church?

This is a frightening turn to me. Of course he is a said, as mentioned earlier. He’s been a saint for more than 50 years! And I’m not undermining the authority of the church; the same things were repeated by Pius XI, Pius XII, Bl. John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, although he has yet to say much about it as the pope. They were repeated by the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship (the curial liturgical committee), not once but multiple times. They were repeated in the constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium from Vatican II. Go to adoremus.org/Actionsofholysee.html and you can see all of the writings from Pope St. Pius X through Paul VI on music. When you’re ready to do the research, we’ll talk. I studied this matter for three months in great depth. For you to come along and say I’m wrong without evidence is disheartening to me.

Many MANY Catholic churches in the U.S., including churches under the most conservative and orthodox of bishops (mine is Thomas Doran), use piano and guitar out of necessity. Gregorian chant is not easy for amateurs to learn without a trained musician to help them. What you are saying is that ALL of these churches are practicing an abuse, and ALL of these bishops are promulgating that abuse, and that the Mass liturgy is somehow “damaged” by it.

No. There is nothing in using the wrong instruments in a mass that amounts to anything more than disobedience. It doesn’t call into question anyone’s orthodoxy or the validity of the service. A spoken mass would be perfectly acceptable. That doesn’t mean that it is acceptable; it was condemned time and time again. Benedict XVI writes at length about sacred music in The Spirit of the Liturgy p. 136-156. He reiterates what earlier church teachings have said. He also underlines the absolute importance of good music in the mass. If you haven’t read the book, you really owe it to yourself to do so; it is the personal views of our Holy Father on the liturgy. Now I will admit that The Spirit of the Liturgy is not binding on anyone, but it does follow the same sorts of patterns that we have seen since St. Pius X.
And as for how easy Gregorian Chant is, I chant. I wasn’t born chanting; I learnt to chant. I studied and practised. I may be a professional musician now (and by the way, the church used to pay musicians to have good music at the mass and I find it offensive that they stopped doing so), but I was chanting by the age of 14. I wasn’t a professional then; my choir director at church taught us all to chant. Some of it is very, very hard, but most of it is easy. The psalm tones are simple. There are simple tones for the ordinary of the mass. There is a simplified graduale for a choir who is not very good at chanting but wants to chant the propers. There are a million recordings to listen and sing along to while you practice. This is just utter rubbish. If chant is too hard now, it has always been too hard. It didn’t get harder with time. Since it made it this far, clearly it is well within the reach of Catholic musicians.

These ideas put doubts into the minds of many “weak” Catholics about the authority of their bishop and priests (and also into the minds of potential converts). These doubts prey upon these people and make them wonder how many other things are “wrong” with their bishop and church. Eventually, many of these Catholics make decisions to disregard the Church entirely because they CANNOT TRUST what they are being told by the Catholic Church. And seekers make decisions to not convert because they cannot TRUST the Church. After all, if almost every bishop in the U.S. is doing music wrong, the Church is ineffectual.

How dare you make generalisations about me or anyone else? I never said I didn’t trust what I was being told by the Church. I sought out what the Church actually teaches. I am passing that actual teaching from Rome on to you, and you are dismissing it in hand without even reading it all and then saying your parish priest knows best. He doesn’t. I’m sure he’s a holy man with the best intentions in his heart, but that doesn’t mean he’s a better expert on liturgical music than the popes and the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship. Elevating the local authority above that of the pope, the curia, and the Second Vatican Council is dangerous, and I hope you see that. I’m quoting authoritative documents. You are telling me what is happening in your own church and your feelings about it. There is a difference.

Do you honestly think that if piano and guitar and other instruments were “wrong,” that Pope Benedict XVI (and the other popes who came after Pope Pius X) would allow so many many churches to continue the wrong? Do you honestly think that ALL those bishops would continue the wrong, too? Is the Pope that wimpy? Are the bishops that corrupt? You honestly think that YOU have interpreted the documents correctly, while all of these bishops, including bishops like mine who are have Doctoral Degrees in Canon Law, are WRONG? OR…do you not think it is probably that it is YOU who are wrong in your interpretation of the teachings of the Catholic Church? By relying upon one Pope’s teachings regarding disciplines, you are disregarding all of the teachings about disciplines that have come from the Church since then. I hope that everyone who reads this will trust their own priests and bishop, not a anonymous poster on a online board who tells us that all our churches are in the wrong by using pianos.

No, I think they have more important battles to fight right now. In all honesty, the use of the guitar and the piano in mass is nothing compared to the problems that the church is facing all across the world. I think fighting the culture of death, caring for the poor and needy, and evangelising the world probably have a little bigger weight than the music at church. I also think that they HAVE said things. I’ve quoted things. I gave you a link to more above. The assumption that if the Pope and the bishops don’t keep harping on something means its okay is false. They say something, they expect it to be done, and then when it isn’t done you think that means they didn’t really mean it? That’s ridiculous. Quote me some authoritative documents that say that this is acceptable behaviour and we’ll talk. Until then all you have is “this is what we do, so it must be right,” and that, I’m afraid, I reject.

 

[LookAWayDixieLd]

We attend several different Churches in our city for Sunday Mass and the guitar Masses seem to be pretty much the “Battle of the Bands”. Guitar Masses are for us just distracting, they are all amped up thinking the louder the music the better God could hear it I guess? When we had babies at Mass we had to find non-guitar Masses because the amped up music would wake them up and startle them so bad, if they fell asleep.

 

[benedictgal]

Things have changed since the days of St. Pius X. What St. Pius X about wrote guitars wasn’t doctrine, it was custom during the time. It wasn’t an infallible document (and never could be, as it doesn’t deal with faith or morals).

Really though, why do we have to get so worked up over what instruments are used at Mass? There are much bigger problems in this world.

He is very much a Saint. He was canonized in 1954. Writing “Pope St. Jimbob” is what is usually done to refer to a canonized Pope.

First of all, you should take on a more respectful tone in your posts. Second, with all due respect, you are 14 and have a lot of more years to go regarding the understanding, the proper understanding of the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of teh Mass.

You may not realize this, but, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most important prayer of the Church. If we get the Mass wrong, then everything else is worth nothing. The first commandment is to love God. Loving God means that we render to Him the worship that is due his divine majesty.

What the Holy Father wrote was reconfirmed and re-ratified by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVi in their documents concerning liturgy and the music.

Those of you who are supporting electric guitars, drum kits and keyboards need to read what the authoritative documents of the Church have to say on the subject. These have already been posted throughout this thread.

Those of you who are invoking King David would do well to read the entire norms and guidelines as dictated by God the Father to Moses. What King David did was not part of the official cultic worship of Ancient Israel, as dictated by the Father to Moses in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. The Lord was very specific in what He wanted done for His cultic worship.

Incdentally, Chant is common to the cultic worship of both Ancient Isreal and the New Israel, who is the Church. The psalms were chanted.

 

[Bluegoat]

Things have changed since the days of St. Pius X. What St. Pius X about wrote guitars wasn’t doctrine, it was custom during the time. It wasn’t an infallible document (and never could be, as it doesn’t deal with faith or morals).

Really though, why do we have to get so worked up over what instruments are used at Mass? There are much bigger problems in this world.

I think there are a few things to consider.

First, you are right that the direction about instruments is not for all times and all places. Changes can occur in public perception of different types of instruments; this is the case with the organ for example, which was once not considered appropriate for religious music. Also, there are cultural differences in such understanding, and that is also to be considered.

But the principle is clear - the music and the instruments should be conductive to the purpose of the liturgy. Just like the vestments, movements, words, art, and other elements of the liturgy are all directed to one purpose - to help the individual better understand and appreciate the nature of what is happening in the Mass, or vespers, or whatever. Thus, it should not distract from that purpose, or even be neutral, it must support it.

The best way to see what the Mass is about, and even each part of it, is to look at the words of the liturgy. Are the sensory elements of the Mass supporting what those words say, or obscuring them? That is why for many centuries, the music was simply the words of the liturgy, sung. Hymns, motets, etc that may be sung must also support the purpose of the Mass, both lyrically and musically. People then prayed the words of the liturgy musically, or prayed the hymns. They are quite simply a form of prayer. Think of the choirs around the throne in the book of Revelation. Even the organ is mostly used to support the choir, to cover awkward moments (but some don’t like it used that way)or for a voluntary at the end, after the liturgy is done.

Guitars, for example, are often not the best choice in a Western context. People tend to stop and listen to them, rather than pray. They don’t easily support large numbers of people singing. That being said, it isn’t a cut and dried thing - a guitar can be a good musical support to a liturgy in an intimate setting. for example, that can be carried into a classroom or other non-church space that is used in time of need. Or the Christmas hymn Silent Night was composed specifically for guitar when the organ was broken, and is an excellent support to prayer in that example.

As for more important things. Well, we are to love God and love our neighbour. There are lots of other religions and philosophies that teach us how to behave toward others in a moral way. Our primary calling as Christians is NOT to social justice, but to understand our proper relation to God and to glorify him eternally. It should be done in the best way possible, not in a slipshod fashion. A good example for those of us in the world is the life of the active monastic - work and social action are always thoroughly grounded in prayer and the sacraments - they are what keep that work focused and what keep us fit to do the work. When we reverse the obligation, we can no longer address the issues or work with the proper focus, or we become spiritually starved and burn out.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

As long as the guitar group isn’t smack in front of the tabernacle, I have no problem with what instruments they use. I always think of the legend of the Juggler of Notre Dame…

 

[Cat]

How dare you make generalisations about me or anyone else? I never said I didn’t trust what I was being told by the Church. I sought out what the Church actually teaches. I am passing that actual teaching from Rome on to you, and you are dismissing it in hand without even reading it all and then saying your parish priest knows best. He doesn’t. I’m sure he’s a holy man with the best intentions in his heart, but that doesn’t mean he’s a better expert on liturgical music than the popes and the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship. Elevating the local authority above that of the pope, the curia, and the Second Vatican Council is dangerous, and I hope you see that. I’m quoting authoritative documents. You are telling me what is happening in your own church and your feelings about it. There is a difference.

First of all, forgive me for not making myself clear. I was not implying that you distrust the bishop and the clergy. I was talking about people like myself. Since reading your post, I have lost total trust in my bishop and priests, and indeed, in all bishops and priests that I have come into contact with since becoming Catholic.

You can say, "Whoa, wait a minute. You’re overreacting.

Well, maybe. But it’s the way I am. If my husband betrays my trust by kissing another woman, I will distrust him from then on. It doesn’t matter that his sin was a small one–a mere kiss. It was wrong of him, and he knows it, and if he does it anyway. I won’t trust be able to trust him again.

And I feel the same way about Bishop Thomas Doran and my priests. It is a small thing. But then why not fix it?

Yes, there are more important issues, but from what you and others say, the Liturgy is the summit of all Christianity. If the bishops and priests can’t get that fixed, then what hope do they have of correcting greater evils? All it would take is an edict–“No more pianos and guitars in Mass. If you do not have an organist, you must sing acappella. Here is the name of some musicians who can teach your people how to chant:___.” Simple.

It makes no sense to allow small things (the “little foxes,” as they are called in the Song of Songs) to pollute our lives. If I am guilty of the sin of murder, and also guilty of the sin of gossip, of course I should repent and face the penalty for the sin of murder. But I should also stop gossiping and make amends for that sin.

It is a good thing that my husband and I are past the age of fertility. If I do not trust the bishop to be right about one thing, then I would probably distrust him about all things, especially my bedroom practices. And there are certain other sexual practices that since becoming Catholic, we have both sworn off in obedience to the Church, even though we question that they are wrong. But if the bishop is wrong about pianos, he might be wrong about those practices, too.

The Bible says that when there is conflict, we should go to the one with whom we have the conflict. If that doesn’t iron out the conflict, we should go back with witnesses. And if that doesn’t work, we should go to the Church, and their word is FINAL.

FrancisB, here is what I am going to do. I don’t like distrusting my bishop. To me, he has always been an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, and to remain Catholic, I MUST be able to trust him. If I can’t trust him, I may as well give it up.

So my conflict is with my bishop, and I am going to HIM first. You, FrancisB, are the “witness.” And the bishop just happens to be the representative of the Church.

So next week, I will write to him. I will include a copy of your posts and mine (the dialogue). I will possibly copy this entire thread, but it will be many pages and he will no doubt be a little put out by a huge stack, and wonder why I don’t spend my time doing something more useful. So I’ll probably just print off the pertinent posts in which his authority has been challenged and my trust has been eroded.

I will ask my bishop, Thomas Doran, what he says and what the Church says. I will ask him to provide some documentation. And I will most certainly be respectful, as I have always been. To me, my bishop is someone that I bow before, as he is the representative here on earth of Jesus Christ.

I hope he won’t ignore me. I’m a convert, and usually the bishop is pretty good about answering the questions of converts. Also, I play in several parishes, and I think that my refusal to play piano would make it difficult for these parishes. As I’ve said in other posts and threads, our city of 150,000 does not have many organists, and the ones we have are playing at Protestant churches that pay a great deal more than the diocese pays.

If Bishop Doran agrees that the piano (and guitar) are not appropriate for Mass, then I will never play piano at Mass again. I’ll explain the situation to my priests and to any liturgical or musical directors that approach me, and if they disagree, I’ll refer them to the bishop.

But if Bishop Doran is able to counter your “research” and reassure me that the piano is appropriate for Mass, then…well, I don’t know what I’ll do. I will be more than a little mad at you and others who have caused me to doubt my shepherd, but there’s really nothing I can do about that.

One thing I’ll do is keep on playing in my parish and others that need my services. And I’ll keep playing until I hear differently from my bishop.

I will write back to you in these forums and tell you the outcome of my letter to the Bishop.

Does all this sound agreeable to you?

 

[MetalMark]

First of all, you should take on a more respectful tone in your posts. Second, with all due respect, you are 14 and have a lot of more years to go regarding the understanding, the proper understanding of the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of teh Mass.

You may not realize this, but, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most important prayer of the Church. If we get the Mass wrong, then everything else is worth nothing. The first commandment is to love God. Loving God means that we render to Him the worship that is due his divine majesty.

What the Holy Father wrote was reconfirmed and re-ratified by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVi in their documents concerning liturgy and the music.

Those of you who are supporting electric guitars, drum kits and keyboards need to read what the authoritative documents of the Church have to say on the subject. These have already been posted throughout this thread.

Those of you who are invoking King David would do well to read the entire norms and guidelines as dictated by God the Father to Moses. What King David did was not part of the official cultic worship of Ancient Israel, as dictated by the Father to Moses in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. The Lord was very specific in what He wanted done for His cultic worship.

Incdentally, Chant is common to the cultic worship of both Ancient Isreal and the New Israel, who is the Church. The psalms were chanted.

Now, I do not like the use of this music at Mass at all (the way it’s usually done when I experience it), and several Popes agree.
The main point of the Mass, the center of worship, however, is not the hymns, it is the Eucharist. Music is not the main point of the Mass, though it is a significant part. Getting the music wrong is not going to invalidate the Mass.

All of the rules for liturgical music could change within the next 100 years, it is custom, customs change, and always will change. It is not doctrine or dogma. I’m not saying it’s good, but it’s not evil either. I have heard about ancient African rites that, at the Eucharist prayer, instead of getting quiet, started chanting loudly and pounding the ground. I couldn’t tell you what they are, this is just what I have heard.

By the way, if you think I am being disrespectful, please point out what I’m doing that you find disrespectful.