What do you think about guitars during mass?

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This should end this line of arrogance.
This is an unfair negative characterization. Musicam Sacram was not published because of arrogance on anyone’s part. Earlier I stated how i believedSt. Pius X prohibition on piano does not apply. Well if that is the case, then Jewish worship of 1000 B.C. would also not apply to Mass. I think one can disagree on how this applies. I think the application can vary from nation to nation and even parish to parish. I do not think that Church teaching can be disregarded, or that it is arrogant. Striving to be faithful to Church teaching is definitely not arrogant and in fact requires humility.
 
This is an unfair negative characterization. Musicam Sacram was not published because of arrogance on anyone’s part. Earlier I stated how i believedSt. Pius X prohibition on piano does not apply. Well if that is the case, then Jewish worship of 1000 B.C. would also not apply to Mass. I think one can disagree on how this applies. I think the application can vary from nation to nation and even parish to parish. I do not think that Church teaching can be disregarded, or that it is arrogant. Striving to be faithful to Church teaching is definitely not arrogant and in fact requires humility.
Not bad for an Aggie. 😃 This is a lot coming from someone who bleeds burnt orange! 👍

In all seriousness, Musicam Sacram is especially relevent since it is the latest (albeit 41 years old) document that we have from the Church on Sacred Music. I am hopeful that what Archbishop Malcolm Ranjnith, the now immediate former Secretary to the CDWDS, does indeed come to pass. The Holy See is fixing to issue a new statement on Sacred Music. It was supposed to have come out earlier this year, but, with the change in administration at the CDWDS, it has been delayed some. Incidentally, Archbishop Ranjinth told me that he is well aware of the problems here in the States regardng Sacred Music, or lack thereof.
 
Since when do you discount the authoritative documents of the Holy See. First of all, we are not a sola scriptura ecclesial community. We stand both on Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

Second, what you are quoting is not necessarily justification for using these instruments in the context of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. These were not used for the cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel, as dictated by God to Moses in Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

The Church is the New Israel and she bases her cultic sacrificial worship, in part, on what constituted the Temple sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel.

Arrogance, as I see it, is blatantly disregarding what the authoritative documents of the Holy See say (since Jesus charged St. Peter and His Successors to bind and loose, and, in the case of the Mass, Peter through the Popes, has the authority to set the norms and regulations) and using Scripture entirely out of context to justify what I consider to be a poor argument.
true, but no legitimate teachings outright contradict the Sacred Scriptures.
 
true, but no legitimate teachings outright contradict the Sacred Scriptures.
With all due respect, even what you quoted from scripture was not used in the Cultic Sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel conducted in the Temple, which, oddly enough, serves as somewhat of a blue print and model for our Sacrificial Worship.

The Lord was very clear in the norms and rubrics He dictated to Moses regarding how He was to be worshipped. He spelled out every detail to the smallest level. What David wrote in the psalms has nothing to do with the cultic worship of Ancient Israel. What David did was, in fact, outside of the norms of the Sacrificial Cultic worship of Ancient Israel.

In fact, Ancient Israel chanted the Psalms. That is where we get the origins of Chant that we use for the Church, the New Israel.

Your tone indicates to me that, with all due respect, it would do you (and all of us) good to read what the authoritative documents of the Holy See are. Tradition and Scripture do not contradict each other. In fact, as I noted in my earlier post, Jesus gave St. Peter and His Successors the authority to bind and loose.

This binding and loosening also includes regulating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This authority is based in Scripture. But, as I read your remarks, you seem to disregard even that. This is where arrogance comes into play.
 
With all due respect, even what you quoted from scripture was not used in the Cultic Sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel conducted in the Temple, which, oddly enough, serves as somewhat of a blue print and model for our Sacrificial Worship.

The Lord was very clear in the norms and rubrics He dictated to Moses regarding how He was to be worshipped. He spelled out every detail to the smallest level. What David wrote in the psalms has nothing to do with the cultic worship of Ancient Israel. What David did was, in fact, outside of the norms of the Sacrificial Cultic worship of Ancient Israel.

In fact, Ancient Israel chanted the Psalms. That is where we get the origins of Chant that we use for the Church, the New Israel.

Your tone indicates to me that, with all due respect, it would do you (and all of us) good to read what the authoritative documents of the Holy See are. Tradition and Scripture do not contradict each other. In fact, as I noted in my earlier post, Jesus gave St. Peter and His Successors the authority to bind and loose.

This binding and loosening also includes regulating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This authority is based in Scripture. But, as I read your remarks, you seem to disregard even that. This is where arrogance comes into play.
“Apologists” like yourself need to read the Scriptures. We are not a Sola Scriptura community, but to discount the Scriptures as you have shows that your stool only has two legs. I accept Tradition (which does NOT include the rubrics–that is a small “t”) and the Magesterium, and the Scriptures. You seem to ignore the Scriptures. Maybe you should read the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation.
 
“Apologists” like yourself need to read the Scriptures. We are not a Sola Scriptura community, but to discount the Scriptures as you have shows that your stool only has two legs. I accept Tradition (which does NOT include the rubrics–that is a small “t”) and the Magesterium, and the Scriptures. You seem to ignore the Scriptures. Maybe you should read the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation.
But, in your case, I submit that you are the one misreading what the Scriptures say. What David promoted in the Psalms was never meant to be used in the cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. It was never meant for the Temple Sacrifice. The ritual was very detailed and very specific as to what could and could not be done. What David was advocating is similar to what can happen outside the bounds of the cultic worship of the Church such as processions, retreats and other avenues, but, not during the Mass.

With all due respect, you are the one who needs to read the authoritative documents of the Church and read the Scriptures as the Church reads them.

The rubrics and the norms that the Church uses are similar, in many ways, to what God the Father dictated to Moses. In fact, I would submit to you that God cared very much about how He was to be worshipped. All we have to do is look at what happened to the sons of Aaron and as well as to Dathan when they violated what God had dictated. Even Jesus had no complaints about the norms used for the Temple sacrificial cultic worship. After all, His Father dictated them and Jesus brought them to their fullest sense with the Mass.
 
But, in your case, I submit that you are the one misreading what the Scriptures say. What David promoted in the Psalms was never meant to be used in the cultic sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. It was never meant for the Temple Sacrifice. The ritual was very detailed and very specific as to what could and could not be done. What David was advocating is similar to what can happen outside the bounds of the cultic worship of the Church such as processions, retreats and other avenues, but, not during the Mass.

With all due respect, you are the one who needs to read the authoritative documents of the Church and read the Scriptures as the Church reads them.

The rubrics and the norms that the Church uses are similar, in many ways, to what God the Father dictated to Moses. In fact, I would submit to you that God cared very much about how He was to be worshipped. All we have to do is look at what happened to the sons of Aaron and as well as to Dathan when they violated what God had dictated. Even Jesus had no complaints about the norms used for the Temple sacrificial cultic worship. After all, His Father dictated them and Jesus brought them to their fullest sense with the Mass.
The fact remains that the rubrics are tradition, not Tradition. Furthermore, the pipe organ, in the grand scheme of things, is a rather recent invention. Perhaps we should only use trumpets and harps. Following your logic (or lack thereof) to its conclusion would result in this end. Your arguments condemning guitars are nothing but smoke, blown away with the slightest application of reason.
 
The fact remains that the rubrics are tradition, not Tradition. Furthermore, the pipe organ, in the grand scheme of things, is a rather recent invention. Perhaps we should only use trumpets and harps. Following your logic (or lack thereof) to its conclusion would result in this end. Your arguments condemning guitars are nothing but smoke, blown away with the slightest application of reason.
I am quoting what the authoritative documents of the Holy See say, something that you seem to disregard and that you’ve called arrogant:
  1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44
Under your line of thinking, the Mass would be some sort of free will exercise in creativity where anything goes. That is not how the Church sees it. Furthermore, wth all due respect, if we were to subscribe to your line of thinking, then, I would suppose that you would rather have the celebrant dancing around the altar in little more than an ephod, since your justification would be that, after all, King David did that and, it’s in the Scriptures. That approach simply does not work.

There is also no need for you to take on a disparaging and disrespectful tone in your responses.

I stand by what I have posted. I form my judgment and opinion based on what the authoritative documents of the Church say not on some misguided but well-intentioned misinterpretation of Scripture.
 
I don’t see how any one instrument could be used solely for secular music. Instruments produce sound, sounds created by God. How one can hear a note played on an organ and the same note played on a guitar and say one or the other is secular… is way beyond my comprehension.
I could think of Blue Oyster Cult when I think of the organ, or a wonderful rendition of Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desire when I ponder the guitar. It’s all in the manner in which the instrument is played, not which instrument is played that matters.
In fact, when I think of singing, Beyonce may pop into my head (shudder) before Gregorian chant.

I am all about following the authoratative documents of the Holy See, but I honestly. do not. believe. an instrument that produces sounds created by our God can only be used for secular music.
 
I don’t see how any one instrument could be used solely for secular music. Instruments produce sound, sounds created by God. How one can hear a note played on an organ and the same note played on a guitar and say one or the other is secular… is way beyond my comprehension.
I could think of Blue Oyster Cult when I think of the organ, or a wonderful rendition of Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desire when I ponder the guitar. It’s all in the manner in which the instrument is played, not which instrument is played that matters.
In fact, when I think of singing, Beyonce may pop into my head (shudder) before Gregorian chant.

I am all about following the authoratative documents of the Holy See, but I honestly. do not. believe. an instrument that produces sounds created by our God can only be used for secular music.
It is no good trying to argue with her. You see, she is always right, and whoever disagrees with her is wrong. I guess I’m just not a very good Catholic, because I refuse to accept that an instrument is sinful in and of itself, a concept which is beyond anything resembling reason. Even her quotes of the rubrics (which are not infallible, though they are authoritative) do not outright ban everything but pipe organs and Gregorian chant, as she suggests. I am not suggesting that the sanctuary be turned into a concert hall (though there is nothing wrong with praise and worship services with thoroughly modern music, say in a gymnasium at the parish school) I am suggesting that there is absolutely nothing inherent in organs that make them “more suitable” for worship than guitars, flutes, saxophones. tubas, or whatever. A say now, as I have said before: it is the use of the object, not the object in itself.
 
Perhaps we should just copy some of the OCs and just have singing. It seems like it might remove a lot of controversy.
 
This little provision is something, as I see it, that is conveniently disregarded by proponents of these kind of instruments (electric guitars, drum kits and the like).
Instruments appropriate only for secular music varies from culture to culture, all over the world. American pop-culture is not the only culture on Earth.

Oh, and there is no such thing as “secular instrument.” That is so ridiculous I can’t put it into words.
 
No, there aren’t purely secular instruments. But I think #63 was pretty clear, that at least where American churches are concerned, it isn’t appropriate to have a rock band up there in the choir for Mass. I’m seeing this as speaking directly to the trend coming over from Protestant services, where they have a “worship team” and it gets hard to tell where the concert ends and the service begins.

I acknowledge that there is a big grey area between the rock band and the organ, where a guy on a guitar and a drummer may or may not be appropriate to the setting. A good classical guitarist can be great for a small service. I don’t have any use for drum sets, but I have heard a discreet skin drum that worked well, believe it or not.

And as far as I see in my parish, at the particular Mass where we endure the lamest music, it’s because the same guy has been doing it for decades (starting in the 70s, lol) and nobody else has stepped up to help.

I think we would do better to aim for the more conservative (for lack of a better term) end of the spectrum and see how transcendent we can make it, rather than trying to figure out how many electric guitars we can get by with.
 
I am in no way advocating the use of a full rock band. But I am saying that a reverent performance of a good hymn on an acoustic guitar is in no way inappropriate.
 
I am in no way advocating the use of a full rock band. But I am saying that a reverent performance of a good hymn on an acoustic guitar is in no way inappropriate.
I think you are likely right. If we were absolute on such things, the organ also wouldn’t be allowed, since it was once disallowed.
 
Oh, and there is no such thing as “secular instrument.” That is so ridiculous I can’t put it into words.
It’s not ridiculous at all, and the concept was used by popes, the Second Vatican Council, and the Curia. You need to ponder the meaning, perhaps. I think you might not quite understand what it means. I’ll be quite interested to see if the poster who sends this to the bishop will get a response, and what that response will be. Especially since so many people are so shamefully unwilling to submit themselves to the decrees of the Vatican. This isn’t a matter of opinion; it’s disciplinary. We don’t get to choose. We were told.

Now I wish to address some things that don’t seem to quite be sinking into the pro-guitar crowd’s head: “secular” and “profane” do not mean Satanic any more than “Vulgar” means full of swear words and crude jokes. “Secular” and “profane” refer to things having to do with the world. They are simply terms used to refer to “non-sacred” things, not sacrilegious things. So to say that there are “secular” instruments is of course perfectly sensible. Most of them are secular. That is, they were developed for use in the musical traditions outside of the church. Actually, this is true of most of them, but some are more closely tied to church music. The organ would be the pinnacle of such an example, but the trombone is also another good example of an instrument with a rich liturgical tradition.

“Secular” isn’t just an opinion. It’s everything that is outside of the church’s musical tradition, since everything that isn’t part of the tradition of sacred music is, by definition, secular. That’s not a condemnation. I love secular music. It’s perfectly healthy and normal to listen to it. Our pope loves Mozart, and most of his music is secular. There’s nothing bad about secular anything, as long as it is not sacrilegious. And while the secular music of the people changes from culture to culture, the sacred music proper to the Roman Catholic church does not. Therefore, if we look at the banjo in Europe (where it is not used), it does not become a sacred instrument just because it isn’t part of Europes secular music tradition.

The problem is that many of you are not willing to go back and look to the sacred musical traditions of the Catholic church. We need to develop a better understanding of history. First and foremost, no translation of the Bible renders the names of the instruments well. The instruments that they used back in the days of early Israel are not the same instruments that we use today. Using the word “harp” conjures up an image of an instrument that simply did not exist then. “Trumpet,” “tambourine,” and so forth are troubled by the same problem. Beyond that, these are instruments that David mentions as being used in what we can only understand and private devotion. If you’d like to listen to guitar music about God outside of mass, you are free to do so; it is healthy and good, so long as the lyrics are orthodox. But this is the equivalent of what David is talking about. There is no mention of instruments being used int he Temple, except for the shofar, which is a horn trumpet–a wind instrument closer to the organ (which has trumpets as one of its stops) than a guitar.

The music of the Temple was vocal. They chanted. The early church chanted. St. Paul refers to the early church singing, but never playing instruments. That is chant (not yet Gregorian, but nevertheless chant). They chanted and chanted and chanted till something magical happened in Notre Dame in Paris during the middle ages: composers began to put multiple lines of chant together and created polyphony. It was the first recorded instance of harmony of any type–invented by the sacred musicians of the Catholic Church. Throughout the late Middle Ages and Renaissance polyphony was developed, with the use of the organ to accompany the voices. Other instruments were also used: we have record of various brass instruments being used to double the parts of the choir or to play the parts of a second choir. The violin family (violin, viola, and 'cello) were later brought in along with other similar instruments to be used in similar manner to the brass: to double the choir, or to play as a second choir by the end of the Renaissance.

Now here’s the break-- during the Baroque, there was a sudden change in musical aesthetic. Some composers decided to write sacred music in this new aesthetic, although these were mostly Protestant. Meanwhile, many composers continued to write in the “stile antico”–the “old style.” They mimicked the works of the earlier Catholic composers. Many of these composers wrote their secular music in the new style and their sacred music in the old, showing that they understood that polyphony was proper to the mass and monody–the kind of music that has chords plus a single melody, like the result of guitars and singing–belonged to the world.

Throughout the 18th and 19th Centuries secular music (specifically opera) crept into the church more and more, although some composers continued to write in the old style to preserve it. In the second half of the 19th Century, the monks at Solesmes compiled the Liber Usualis and used it to start a revival of Gregorian Chant that extended into the beginning of the 20th Century. It inspired a new group of Catholic composers to write in the old style, using chant as an inspiration. Then as the century wore on, chant slowly fell back out of use along with polyphony. It’s been the case for a long time in the church–chant is used then lost then recovered. We need to recover it again, and the guitar is not part of the chant or polyphonic tradition. The organ, however, is at the heart of it.

I would encourage those of you that play the piano at church to move over to the organ. If you ignore the pedal keyboard, it’s not that big a jump at first, and you can make the transition slowly, starting at first with only the manuals and a few stops, and adding to your repertoire as you learn. I would also encourage you to re-discover chant. It is the proper music, and the reason behind the church condemning the use of other instruments in mass. Chant. Some of it is fiercely hard, so that there is always a challenge, but much of it is completely accessible, especially in this day of internet videos. There are instructional videos on youtube; it’s not that hard to learn.
 
And before you jump all over the old style, make sure you know what the old style is. It did change with time–harmonically and rhythmically. Listening to Arvo Pärt’s old style (he’s still alive and living in Germany) and listening to the works of Palestrina (frequently cited as the pinnacle of the Renaissance style) will show a huge change in musical style, and yet the basic compositional technique and approach toward singing, instruments, text, and form are all still the same. So I’m not suggesting that we freeze music in the 16th Century, nor were the leaders of the church. They were suggesting that the new music that is written be written to follow the ideals of the old while still bringing something new and refreshing. This way we “sing a new song to the Lord,” while at the same time not changing the true nature of Catholic music, which starts with chant and evolves into polyphony (true hymns arise out of this tradition too, but many of the things that have been labelled “hymns” are not part of it). To understand the difference, consider the musical difference between “Adeste Fideles” (O Come All Ye Faithful), which is part of the ancient tradition, and “The Little Drummer Boy,” which is not. As much as I love the latter, and like to sing along loudly when I hear it on the radio, it does not belong in church, even though it kind of tells the story. One is sacred music, the other is secular music with a religious topic.
 
I think you are likely right. If we were absolute on such things, the organ also wouldn’t be allowed, since it was once disallowed.
This is simply a distortion of the truth. The disciplines of the church may be changed by the church. It’s not that a rock band might never be allowed; it’s that it would take the Vatican changing the rules to allow it. I doubt they will, but I cannot be sure. The simple fact remains-- we have been told one thing, and until they tell us another, we are bound by obedience to obey the first. Perhaps one day the guitar will be encouraged. Perhaps we will return to married priests. In the meantime, we have been instructed against both. That is the way of the church, and we are supposed to be obedient.
 
This is simply a distortion of the truth. The disciplines of the church may be changed by the church. It’s not that a rock band might never be allowed; it’s that it would take the Vatican changing the rules to allow it. I doubt they will, but I cannot be sure. The simple fact remains-- we have been told one thing, and until they tell us another, we are bound by obedience to obey the first. Perhaps one day the guitar will be encouraged. Perhaps we will return to married priests. In the meantime, we have been instructed against both. That is the way of the church, and we are supposed to be obedient.
I don’t have a problem with what you have said here - by we, I meant all human beings, even the pope.🙂 But it is not a totally one way street - it isn’t the case that one day they told all the composers - “we have decided polyphony is good, now you may compose the first polyphonic music.” The music was composed, it was new but seemed in keeping with the tradition, it worked in practice, the Church approved it (although they also at one point reeled in the complicated polyphony - a good example of them deciding the currant trend wasn’t working.)

The Vatican, after all, has recognized that these things change over time and accommodated themselves. They also recognize that what is appropriate as sacred music in the Church CAN vary by culture. And there is a grey area as well, where a certain amount of discernment is required - some instruments are fine for sacred and secular music depending on the treatment, or sometimes a new style develops - since it is new, there is not really any direction on it at all. That area is where cultural change begins to happen.

I do think Churches should try to make a point of bringing back things like chant. Even with a small choir to lead, it can be easy for a congregation to begin by doing the psalm in plainchant - and I don’t mean those awful things in modern churches where the congregation just repeats one line over and over as the refrain. It is not hard to learn and there is no need for an organ at all if none is available. And there are some beautiful older Mass settings which are accessible for congregations. In my church we use an Anglican one, the Merbeck setting, if there is no choir, and it is both beautiful, singable, and dignified. I don’t see any reason something similar wouldn’t work in a Catholic setting.
 
Perhaps we should just copy some of the OCs and just have singing. It seems like it might remove a lot of controversy.
That would be an interesting idea if more people knew how to sing on key. 😛 I think properly tuned instruments are a good refence point for what notes to sing.
 
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