What do you think about guitars during mass?

[JReducation]

“Pre-eminent.” That was the other word I was thinking of that could have been used (but was not).

Default is probably the best translation into the English. The word default conveys the idea without excluding. Pre-eminent is a word that would not be chosen in this context, because the Church normally uses that in theological discourse. This is not a theological statement. The Church, especially popes and councils, are very careful about words that they use to avoid parallelisms. One can say “well pre-eminent means this over here so it must mean the same over there.” For that reason, Church writings often tend to describe rather than use very specific words than can end up having only one meaning in the minds of people.

Fratrernally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Layman]

Guitar music at Mass brings to mind this scene from a satirical film on college life.

I don’t tend to tip guitar or saxophone players on the London Underground; the former because the ease of learning its basics leads to mediocre players and the latter because I just don’t like the squawk and squeak of the saxophone. I don’t want to encourage them to breed.

 

[JReducation]

Guitar music at Mass brings to mind this scene from a satirical film on college life.

I don’t tend to tip guitar or saxophone players on the London Underground; the former because the ease of learning its basics leads to mediocre players and the latter because I just don’t like the squawk and squeak of the saxophone. I don’t want to encourage them to breed.

That was funny.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ecce_ego]

Ecce_ego,

I think that bad guitarists give the guitar a bad name. I don’t blame any instruments, just the musicians behind the instrument.

I do respect your opinion about how you feel about chant and organ. I want to share an experience I had in Mexico.

I was at a mass where the choir consisted of 2 female guitarists, and about 6 female vocalists. The guitarists used mostly arpeggios and some light strumming for the mass, very simple stuff. The people at the mass would sing along to the music, which was a bit comical to me at first, b/c the women sounded so beautiful, and the people were so off-key. As a second communion hymn, they played Nada te turbe (the prayer of St. Teresa of Avila). The guitars complimented the vocals with the arpeggios and light strumming, and the vocalists sung in a quiet volume. When they got to the section of SOLO DIOS BASTA…, I was in tears, by the beauty of the whole experience, praying ALONE GOD SUFFICETH. The people, who sang along with the choir, were completely off key (and trust me it was really bad), but it was the experience of the power of all singing together as a community in praise of God that really moved me to my very core. After the hymn, the people remained in silence on their knees, for roughly five minutes, which may not seem very long for most, but for me, it can be.

The mass was beautiful, done without organ or chant. It was prayerful, and the people could sing along with the music, even if they were off-key. The hymns used were mostly prayers of Saints, as well some very traditional hymns in Spanish (i.e., Altísimo Señor).

For this reason, I am not against the use of guitar at mass, because at this particular mass, it fostered a setting of reverence and holiness. The people sang as one for the glory of God.

You are right, that there are bad musicians out there, who may not be competent enough to play not just at mass, BUT ANYWHERE! If they would not be hired outside of the mass for their incapacity to play, why would they be allowed to play in the Church. I’m not trying to discourage people to play at mass, but they should be somewhat competent.

And yes, sometimes, the guitar is set too loud, and it is distracting. But any instrument who’s volume is too loud is distracting. Any instrument that does not complement the voices does a disservice to the community. That is why I mentioned earlier that even the organ can drown out the vocalists, because the organist wants to “perform.” That’s not right either and does a disservice to the people as well.

That sounds great! As I said, I have no objection to classical or Spanish (classical, basically) guitar. I live in New Mexico and am familiar with good guitar music, but at the churches they tend to play the strummy, happy-clappy songs that you hear in protestant churches

Yes, any instrument can be a distraction, which is why I guess I object more to the music choices in most churches as opposed to the particular instruments used. At the cathedral in Corpus Christi, Tx I once heard a young lady do a solo Ave Maria that brought tears to many eyes, mine included. Any music which conveys emotion like that I think should be used in Mass, not the ‘praise and worship’, rock-n-roll type.

 

[Layman]

That was funny.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Ta. Want to have more cynical fun?

Observe how most pop songs today belong to the following categories:

1. Privileged white boys whining;.
2. Narcissistic white girls wittering;
3. Angry black boys talking about dirty women and crime over samples of other peoples’ songs;
4. Sexy young girls of every race singing about sex while dancing sexily.

Here’s a little trick: If you pray from the old ‘Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary’ and sing or listen to the old Latin hymns, they’re what repeat in your mind throughout the day and not cheap pop songs with dubious lyrics. Result: a much nobler internal dialogue.

 

[eucharisteo]

I listen to Chant

 

[albertziggy]

I listen to Chant

I do too.

The guitar was originally meant to be played for a SMALL group of people, in a very INFORMAL setting. As a matter of fact, the creators of this musical instrument did not imagine it to be used in a concert hall or in Church. It was only during the time of Andres Segovia in the 20th Century that the instrument got the attention of a lot of classical music lovers. I read somewhere that some conservatories did not even offer classical guitar courses until the recently. As of now, mostly transcriptions for other other musical instruments make up the pieces for the guitar. Of course, you can always strum the chords a popular piece.

Now, in my opinion as a classical guitarist myself, I would rather have the organ as the instrument used for the Mass. Let’s face it, the only way you can make the guitar sound worthy for praising God is by playing it the classical way with the proper amplification. But then, how many so-called church guitarists can do that? How many parishes would want to have the guitar played that way? All I have been hearing since my childhood days are just wild strumming and lousy singing! I’m so tired of hearing somebody sing like Donovan or some second-rate pop singer.

I wish the old chanting, with or without the organ, would return in full force someday.

In Christ,
albertziggy

 

[Guitar]

I do too.

The guitar was originally meant to be played for a SMALL group of people, in a very INFORMAL setting. As a matter of fact, the creators of this musical instrument did not imagine it to be used in a concert hall or in Church. It was only during the time of Andres Segovia in the 20th Century that the instrument got the attention of a lot of classical music lovers. I read somewhere that some conservatories did not even offer classical guitar courses until the recently. As of now, mostly transcriptions for other other musical instruments make up the pieces for the guitar. Of course, you can always strum the chords a popular piece.

Now, in my opinion as a classical guitarist myself, I would rather have the organ as the instrument used for the Mass. Let’s face it, the only way you can make the guitar sound worthy for praising God is by playing it the classical way with the proper amplification. But then, how many so-called church guitarists can do that? How many parishes would want to have the guitar played that way? All I have been hearing since my childhood days are just wild strumming and lousy singing! I’m so tired of hearing somebody sing like Donovan or some second-rate pop singer.

I wish the old chanting, with or without the organ, would return in full force someday.

In Christ,
albertziggy

Albertziggyrolleyes, I hate to break it to you but I am “so-called” church guitarist who can do just that. Pickup and microphone technology and specialised amps for acoustic guitars have come a heck of a long way in the last ten years and continue to improve by the day. I can give you quite a long list of parishes that once they hear it done well as opposed to badly are quite happy to have guitar played that way as an alternative to what they’d like to have but cannot have for various reasons. I and my guitar are very welcome in more than one place with educated musicians on staff, and please do forgive me if I am wrong but from reading what you write I get the impression you don’t have much exposure to the guitar/lute’s long history as an ensemble continuo instrument. Where possible, that is how I use guitar, with other instruments, and balanced accordingly. Guitar features quite often in baroque orchestras. Who “the creators” of the guitar were we don’t know, and I doubt there actually was a “creator” as most instruments evolved over time into the forms we see them in now. Renaissance and Baroque guitars, for example, are double strung in five courses - they do not have the six single strings we see now. The concert hall is a pretty recent invention in terms of music history so the same comment applies to the "inventors’ of the viola da gamba, violin, viola, cello, double bass, organ, recorder, flute, oboe, harpsichord, trumpet, sackbut, cornetto, early piano, even the human voice …

If you think strumming chords to a popular piece is all that constitutes guitar music outside the narrow confines of “classical guitar music” then there is an awful lot you are unaware of. (Of course, I recognise that you might just be commenting that this is all you have personally heard of guitars at Mass.) I do not suggest that any of the breadth of guitar music out there is necessarily appropriate for Mass, I just reiterate that a) if guitars = Woodstock or Donovan for someone, and nothing else, then they know as much about guitar as the people that hear organ and think “pizza parlour” do about organ, and b) the argument that there is a lot of bad guitar playing out there is a different argument altogether to whether guitar should be banned from Mass - there is an equal amount of bad organ playing out there and any number of atrocious “organs” for which the best possible liturgical use I can think of is kindling for the Pascal fire at the Easter Vigil.

Sergovia certainly has a high profile but he did not, contrary to much popular belief, “invent” guitar as a classical instrument. It doesn’t take too much digging to find that the idea of formal composition for guitar, and participation of the guitar in formal ensemble and orchestral music, predates him by quite a long time. There are endless amounts of formal solo compositions for plucked string instrument (lute, but not that distant from guitar) by Bach, Weiss, Kapsberger and others and there is little reason why guitar cannot be played in the same way. (It did though, I would agree, take a while for the guitar to become a recognised classical soloist instrument outside the confines of chamber music and that is due to all sorts of evolutionary issues driven by changing tastes and requirements.)

I agree in part with some of what you are getting at - there are some circumstances and buildings in which I would not play guitar at all. A small service in a large traditional building wherere everyone sat in the choir stalls would be one thing, but it is otherwise not the thing for large traditional buildings. There are some larger modern churches where it works but many where it does not and they are not places I take my guitar and music group. At least that is something I can proudly say as a “so-called” church guitarist - if I can’t make it work and work well, I don’t do it.

 

[Cat]

Excellent post, Guitar.

I think it’s ridiculous that we who do not play the pipe organ have to defend ourselves to Catholics when our bishops have given our priests full authority to allow piano, guitar, and other instruments in the Holy Mass–and that includes “strumming” guitar.

I think that those who criticize piano or guitar and insist only on pipe organ had better be either learning to play pipe organ themselves, or financing lessons for children/teenagers who are learning to play pipe organ (IF they can find any organ students–in our city, there are NONE that any of us know about).

As for a cappella music in the absence of a pipe organ–that’s really not going to work for most parishes in the U.S. on a regular basis. It’s idealistic and esoteric and unrealistic in this day and age. People in the U.S. do not know how to sing with accompaniment, let alone a cappella. I think that this choice would lead to a massive defection from Catholic churches, and the closing of even more Catholic churches.

It’s a ridiculous thing to even discuss, when the Church allows the bishops to make these kinds of decisions about Mass and music.

Like it or not, people come to Mass in part to hear music. Yes, yes, catechesis is needed–so how exactly is that happening right now in the Catholic Church in the U.S.? In our city, we’ve had “Why Catholic?” classes–out of our parish of about 7000 people, about 30 people attend these classes and for the most part, these are the same 30 people who attend any class that the parish offers. Frankly, I think the material is not very good, but the leader of the study can make it work. (Our leader is excellent.)

Fact is, the main means of “catechesis” in the Catholic Church in the U.S. is the Mass. What’s sorely needed is a regular, consistent “study” on theology and disciplines of the Church, but the Mass is not generally the appropriate place for this kind of study.

So from what I can see, in the U.S., nothing gets done with Catechesis in the Catholic Church, or at best, very little.

A few people here, a few people there. But in the meantime, people keep coming to Mass, even though many of them have little idea why they are there and what’s going on. It wouldn’t take much for these types of Catholics to quit and start going to the megachurch up the road, or to quit attending any church altogether. So it seems to me that any changes in the Mass, including changes in the music, MUST result in a retention of the people who currently attend Mass, the huge majority of which know nothing or very little about their faith.

Honestly, I can’t see that getting rid of the guitar and piano and making all organ-less Masses a cappella is going to retain all these lukewarm people. It will drive them away. And then what happens to their souls?

That’s the bottom line here–souls. We need to hang onto souls, not drive them away so that we have more room in the pews to worship the way WE want to worship.

And I think we can retain souls by fully obeying the dictums of the Church. We don’t need to abandon the rubrics and introduce alternative rock bands into the Mass. However, the Church makes it clear that the bishop has the authority to allow various styles of music and instruments in the Masses in his diocese. Of course this means more Gregorian chant and traditional music–yes, I think this SHOULD be brought back and we’ll see if it does the trick and attracts more people to the Mass, and whether it does or not, it should be done. But I also think that Masses should include the more homely music that many Catholics seem to prefer, if it keeps them walking into Mass. Better to be at Mass ignorant than to not be there at all.

So what is the argument here? It’s not about what we personally prefer, but what the Church says.

 

[Sarabande]

…As a matter of fact, the creators of this musical instrument **did not imagine it to be used in a concert hall **or in Church. It was only during the time of Andres Segovia in the 20th Century that the instrument got the attention of a lot of classical music lovers…

I don’t know if you are aware of this, but there is a lot of early music written specifically for chamber music performances where the lute and other varieties of stringed instruments, as well as guitars, were the main solo instrument. I attend many Baroque chamber music concerts, as well as performed in little chamber concerts, and they will often times use these instruments.

Again, of course, there are many instances at mass where you get the really bad guitar players who give a horrible name to the instrument (just with any instrument - there have been a couple brides who will hire a string quartet or a harp over the organ because they have told me that the organist at their church plays atrociously and now cannot stand the sound of the organ). But when you have someone who knows what they are doing with the instrument and knows how to make it sound so that one does not equate it with secular music (which I think is the main problem why people are against guitars at mass and I can completely understand that - I don’t like how most guitars sound at mass, too, as many play them more like a secular instrument rather than sacred and of the Divine) then they are achieving something good. As many have already said, there are situations where a parish doesn’t have an organ, a working organ, an organist, etc. and if that parish is fortunate enough to have a classically trained guitarist at their fingertips, it would be loads better than to have a hack at the organ or the piano.

 

[Sarabande]

Oops!!! Sorry, Guitar. I see that you already addressed the lute/guitar chamber concert thing. Didn’t mean to reiterate.

 

[eucharisteo]

I do too.
Andres Segovia in the 20th Century that the instrument got the attention of a lot of

In Christ,
albertziggy

I believe this who Christopher Parkening studied under.

 

[rguntner]

Excellent. Ditto much of the above for piano.

I agree with you 100% Brother JR. My church paid over $700 grand to replace our old organ with a real first class pipe organ. Not many churches have that kind gelt to shell out. The organ sounds great but I also feel that a well played guitar can also inspire and assist us in our worship at Mass. Most of the detractors of guitar music are trying to justify their objections by citing the centuries of documentation espousing the merits of the organ and chant in sacred music. Just because the organ and chants have a big head start doesn’t mean that the guitar and other musical instrument won’t establish its own persistence over time. I think the real reason is that they just don’t like guitars, period! There is something in their minds that equates the guitar with Rock’n Roll, or Flower Power or some other bad experience in their past. Maybe it’s the fact that the guitar was brought over by the Moors during their invasion of Europe that makes it a questionable music instrument and not worthy to be used in Christian worship? Who knows!

 

[Layman]

Guitars are just another way of dumbing-down the Mass. Added to the innovations and changes since 1940 and you have a rite that’s tending more towards a school recital and away from a mysterious sacrifice at an altar of stone.

You don’t need a full pipe organ to get an organ sound. A synthesiser, coupled with some decent, ‘bassy’ speakers, would be a good substitute. An organist with taste could even work some string or other orchestral sounds in there from the same instrument, but that might get too distracting.

1940: Organ with male choir singing chant.
2009: Guitarist with lone female singer singing pop hymns.

Sad, really.

 

[MarysGirls]

I am all for guitars in the Mass! I don’t think, however that pop hyms should be all there is. I, for one, find it easier to worship in a more concert-like setting, but traditional chants are also beautiful. Why can’t we have both? It would certainly get the teens more into the Mass (which I find to be sad since they should be there no matter what the music is like).

But seriously, everyone worships differently. Why can’t we have a compromise? Why can’t people forget their differences in worship and realize their unity in the One they are worshiping?

 

[Guitar]

Oops!!! Sorry, Guitar. I see that you already addressed the lute/guitar chamber concert thing. Didn’t mean to reiterate.

You state things much better that I do - you are most welcome to reiterate!

All this talk of people’s bad guitar experiences has reminded me - I had actually almost forgotten - that when I was regularly playing for weddings it was a non-stop stream of couples whose first words were “we don’t want any organ music at our wedding”. It wasn’t just that they weren’t keen on it, they did not want it. This complaint was as constant as the bad guitar experience stories here. Where there was opportunity to play sample pieces for them in their church, they almost always turned around and decided to have at least some organ music. (I am no great shakes as an organist but I only play what I can play well and I have at least the first and second clues about registration.) They didn’t hate “organ music” at all, the instrument or repertoire, they just couldn’t stand what had always been served up to them as “organ music” - bad playing usually (though not always) on bad instruments. In more than one case I rocked up to find what I’d been told was an awful instrument was quite a nice little pipe organ.

I was a bit the same until my early twenties. When told the organ should have pride of place I used to wonder “says who?” and “why?” I loved singing traditional hymns and my father taught me a few things in Latin, and that was all great, but growing up where I did, the only organs I’d ever heard were spinet console Hammonds or even less liturgically-appropriate instruments. People did their best but every player I can rememebr was “struggling”. I recall only one player who could make the one in the largest local church sound half-reasonable. I couldn’t get my head around being told what I was hearing should have “pride of place”. It still isn’t possible, about 30 years later, to have organ lessons in the area. Then after moving a couple of hundred miles away to study, I got involved in research to replace the ageing electro-mechanical instrument in the parish I joined, and bit by bit the pieces fell into place. I now had opportunities to hear good instruments and trained players and with further study it started to make sense. I then invested in several years of organ tuition but these days am not able to play much for various reasons.

Which is a long-winded way of saying, once more, that if we want to ban instruments on the basis that they are frequently played badly, we better be prepared to see more than the guitar disappear from churches.

 

[Guitar]

You don’t need a full pipe organ to get an organ sound. A synthesiser, coupled with some decent, ‘bassy’ speakers, would be a good substitute. An organist with taste could even work some string or other orchestral sounds in there from the same instrument, but that might get too distracting.

I have to ask - have you ever actually heard this or tried it yourself?

 

[Layman]

No compromise. The default for the Roman Catholic Mass is chant, with optional pipe organ. And it’s sad that that is now rare at Masses, these days.

With chant, you have the Liber Usualis; you have a selection of different, tried-and-tested Masses and different hymns for different feasts. It really stretches you. It’s also educational.

I see most modern Masses as ‘flat’; learn the simple hymns, little variety, droning, pleasant-but-possibly-doctrinally-suspect, in-one-ear-and-out-the-other, maybe even off-key or strident but lets not embarass Mrs. Goodlady by telling her.

**A poor accompaniment to a supposedly mysterious and ancient rite. **

It alters the atmosphere. I suppose it’s no co-incidence modern Mass music got going when the priest started facing the people and unvested laity started reading from the pulpit. **You can’t have it both ways: An awe-inducing rite and adding more and more populist elements. **

 

[Guitar]

Layman, you didn’t answer my question. Have you tried it? Have you heard it?

Organ sounds on synthesisers are awful. You would be waaaay better off with a quality acoustic piano than “organ” sounds out of synthesiser. I have always refused to do this. Viscount was selling a portable keyboard that had the same sound generation as its electronic classical organs and to make it even half-feasible you would need to get hold of something like that, and they’re not common.

If you heard organ sounds out of a synthesiser, especially with strings mixed in, even from a good player, I think you would run screaming.

And again, you are mixing up arguments. I do not play pop hymns on guitar. I learned a little bit about chant from my father and a lot more from my early music interests. In my parish you will hear the guitarist promoting traditional hymns and working on re-introducing chant and you will hear the organists playing the pop hymns.

Not everyone has a pipe organ. It’s been said over and over. Hopefully in future this situation will improve, and many of us are working towards that. For the moment, reality is what it is and we work with it week-in, week-out.

 

[MarysGirls]

No compromise. The default for the Roman Catholic Mass is chant, with optional pipe organ. And it’s sad that that is now rare at Masses, these days.

With chant, you have the Liber Usualis; you have a selection of different, tried-and-tested Masses and different hymns for different feasts. It really stretches you. It’s also educational.

I see most modern Masses as ‘flat’; learn the simple hymns, little variety, droning, pleasant-but-possibly-doctrinally-suspect, in-one-ear-and-out-the-other, maybe even off-key or strident but lets not embarass Mrs. Goodlady by telling her.

**A poor accompaniment to a supposedly mysterious and ancient rite. **

It alters the atmosphere. I suppose it’s no co-incidence modern Mass music got going when the priest started facing the people and unvested laity started reading from the pulpit. You can’t have it both ways: An awe-inducing rite and adding more and more populist elements.

The reasons you’ve stated don’t have anything to do with the instuments or style of the music, but rather if they are truly heart-felt. Again, I personally worship more easily in a concert-like setting. This does not mean that everyone is standing there pretending that Mrs. Goodlady has an awsome voice, but rather, everyone is singing along, at the top of their lungs, from the bottom of their heart, hands outstretched, hands at your side, face to the sky, head bowed in awe, smile on your lips, tears on your cheeks, everyone worshiping the same God, no one embaaressed by anothers display because no one is paying attention to the others’ display, just you and Jesus and the song…

The instruments don’t really have anything to do with whether worship is real or not, interesting or not, heart-felt or not, or whatever. It is the well-tuned heart that turns the simple, repetive song into a song of the angels. Love is simple. Why shouldn’t worship be the same?