What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

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Well done. It’s the standard answer and it’s an adequate one. But perhaps we’ve arrived at the biggest difficulty of all. Would you be prepared to explain what you mean by “not in communion with the See of Peter”?🙂

Cordially,
Mick
👍
From what I understand (very imperfectly) the Orthodox consider themselves to have excommunicated the Pope - hence, “not in communion with” his See. 🙂
 
SSTeacher;5243901:
Would you be prepared to explain what you mean by “not in communion with the See of Peter”?🙂
From what I understand (very imperfectly) the Orthodox consider themselves to have excommunicated the Pope - hence, “not in communion with” his See. 🙂
OK. Well, let’s start there. If the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church could be reunited, that would be a good thing, right? But the problem is that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are “not in communion” with each other. The division or schism goes back to 1054 when the pope and the patriarch of Constantinople excommunicated each other. In 1965 Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras revoked those excommunications. But we are still not in communion with each other.

So let’s dialogue about the problem. Let’s bat it around and see if we can make any progress. Let me allow you to supply an opening thought. Question:

What, in your view, would need to happen for the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church to be “in communion” with each other as they once were?

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
J - Hatred toward and fear of the Catholic Church in general. The rest are just the specifics.
Please don’t lump all of the non-Catholic Christians into one category.

I am a Protestant Christian and I neither hate nor fear the Catholic Church. Actually, I am interested in your beliefs. I think if we can reach a point of respectful dialogue, we may find that we are not so much at odds after all.
 
Please don’t lump all of the non-Catholic Christians into one category.

I am a Protestant Christian and I neither hate nor fear the Catholic Church. Actually, I am interested in your beliefs. I think if we can reach a point of respectful dialogue, we may find that we are not so much at odds after all.
Anna,

Welcome to the forums.

What do you believe is the biggest obstacle to our unity?

God bless you
 
My 2 cents.

I’ve only just read the last 1-2 pages so this may have been brought up before.

I think the biggest obstacle for unity in Christianity is Pride! From both ends, there are those who refuse to follow the pope because they feel they know better then him and the church. (even there is scriptural eveidence supporting the papacy)

and there are those who are within the church who disagree with the pope, who are openly against church teaching and still call themselves Catholic. This causes erroneous teaching and confusion and will not encourage others to join the faith.

God bless,
 
Please don’t lump all of the non-Catholic Christians into one category.

I am a Protestant Christian and I neither hate nor fear the Catholic Church. Actually, I am interested in your beliefs. I think if we can reach a point of respectful dialogue, we may find that we are not so much at odds after all.
🙂

Hey Anna. Welcome to the forum, and I hope you won’t be shy about posting your thoughts.

What kind of Protestant would you call yourself?
 
jmcrae,
It is only if St. Paul knows that St. Peter’s teaching is infallible (and thus, required to be followed by everyone who calls himself a Christian, including St. Peter himself) that he now has just cause to become upset with him and rebuke him to his face
I’m trying to understand what you mean here. Just saying that St. Paul had reason to become upset if St. Peter taught infallibly doesn’t make any sense to me. Did you mean something like “St. Paul had reason to become upset if St. Peter exercised infallibly needlessly”? (Like how Cardinal Newman was upset that Vatican I issue a dogmatic/infallible declaration that he considered to be unnecessary and unwise.)
 
I would most heartily agree with jmcrae’s post about St. Peter and St. Paul.
 
What separates non-Catholics from Catholics?
  1. Confession to a priest. As a Methodist I have direct access to the Lord for confession. I do not need absolution from my pastor.
  2. The virginity of Mary. Am I to assume that Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage?
  3. Transubstantiation. When I take communion the bread still looks like bread and the wine still looks like wine.
I have read Foxe’s Book of Martyrs and there are many accounts of the Catholic Church persecuting Prostestants and putting them to death. I think the memory of that has been passed down and became the anti-Catholicism of several Protestant denominations. Of course that is past history and it is time to move on.

By the way, I have read some Catholic books and have delved into the Catechism. I am interested in what I have read; however, I will remain part of the United Methodist Church.

I would not lump Protestants together. Methodist are distinct from Baptists from Pentacostals from Presbyterians from Anglicans.

Peace:)
 
What separates non-Catholics from Catholics?
  1. Confession to a priest. As a Methodist I have direct access to the Lord for confession. I do not need absolution from my pastor.
Just out of curiousity, why do you think Jesus gave His apostles the authority to forgive sins (Jn 20:21-23) if there is no need for earthly confession?
  1. The virginity of Mary. Am I to assume that Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage?
If you care at all about being in line with the thoughts of the early church and its fathers, then yes, you are supposed to believe in Mary’s eternal virginity. Can I ask you why you feel Mary could not have remained ever-virgin, as all Apostolic churches teach?
  1. Transubstantiation. When I take communion the bread still looks like bread and the wine still looks like wine.
Why do you think transubstantiation has to do with what the bread and wine look like?
 
True, Jesus did give His apostles that authority. However, I don’t find earthly confession necessary. I can confess directly to the Father without human intervention. Pastors and priests are also sinful humans. How does one sinner absolve another sinner of his sins? Why not confess to God who is without sin?

Why is it important that Mary be a perpetual virgin? Can she not be honored as a married woman who had other children?

And, no, I don’t believe in transubstantiation. The bread and wine are symbols of Jesus’ flesh and blood. We take communion in remembering His sacrifice on the Cross to take away our sins. Therefore, it is not important to me if Jesus if present in the elements or not.
Peace:)
 
The other two I will chalk up to vastly different church doctrines, but the fact that you apparently agree with the interpretation that Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive sins, yet still deny the efficacy of confession is incredibly interesting to me. Why do you find fault with what Jesus Himself has set up? How are you following Christ if you disregard the sacraments? Did Our Lord give His apostles the power to forgive sins for no reason?
 
What separates non-Catholics from Catholics?
  1. Confession to a priest. As a Methodist I have direct access to the Lord for confession. I do not need absolution from my pastor.
  2. The virginity of Mary. Am I to assume that Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage?
  3. Transubstantiation. When I take communion the bread still looks like bread and the wine still looks like wine.
I have read Foxe’s Book of Martyrs and there are many accounts of the Catholic Church persecuting Prostestants and putting them to death. I think the memory of that has been passed down and became the anti-Catholicism of several Protestant denominations. Of course that is past history and it is time to move on.

By the way, I have read some Catholic books and have delved into the Catechism. I am interested in what I have read; however, I will remain part of the United Methodist Church.

I would not lump Protestants together. Methodist are distinct from Baptists from Pentacostals from Presbyterians from Anglicans.

Peace:)
Hi Danimal. I think dzheremi answered 1, 2, and 3 pretty well; but I thought I’d chime in to say, Welcome to the forum.
Why is it important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?
You realize, of course, that your question cuts both ways. I.e. why do many Protestants insist that Mary wasn’t a perpetual virgin? Why is that important to them?
 
How rude of me! I didn’t even notice that you are new, Danimal! Forgive me for not offering a welcome prior to all the questions. I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m picking on you…the nature of this particular thread leads for some interesting conversation, and having once been Protestant myself, I am interested in what Protestants have to say. Anyway, welcome to the forum!
 
Thank you for your welcome. I appreciate that.

For me, the perpetual virginity of Mary is not an important doctrine. It’s enough for me that she is the mother of Jesus. Her virginity afterwards never negates this.

I don’t neglect the sacraments. However, the United Methodist Church recognizes two sacraments: baptism and Communion. We don’t regard earthly confession as a sacrament. I certainly am free to confess my sins to my pastor, but he would not absolve me. We would ask God to do that.

Just out of curiosity, why are Prostestants regularly challenged and belittled on a Catholic forum? I found an incredible freedom in Methodism after getting away from fundamentalist churches. I am not sure that I would find much freedom in a church with a rigid hierarchy, no direct access to God, and insists that Jesus can only be found there.

Of course, I realize that Protestants participating in a Catholic forum will be challenged on their beliefs. Actually, we probably need that.🙂
 
Christ is risen!
First of all, welcome to the forum!
True, Jesus did give His apostles that authority. However, I don’t find earthly confession necessary. I can confess directly to the Father without human intervention. Pastors and priests are also sinful humans. How does one sinner absolve another sinner of his sins? Why not confess to God who is without sin?
You admitted that Christ, God in the flesh, gave his apostles that authority and in the same breath say you don’t find it necessary? Would you care to enlarge?
Why is it important that Mary be a perpetual virgin? Can she not be honored as a married woman who had other children?
She is the Theotokos as the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in the 400s. John Wesley even professed this.
And, no, I don’t believe in transubstantiation. The bread and wine are symbols of Jesus’ flesh and blood. We take communion in remembering His sacrifice on the Cross to take away our sins. Therefore, it is not important to me if Jesus if present in the elements or not.
Peace:)
This last part is very, very interesting as there is a Methodist minister on here who is very insistent on saying that Methodists do not believe communion to be symbolic. Is there confusion amongst Methodists as to what the official position is? When I was Methodist, we believed it to be only symbolic and my sister would take the bread home and my friends would do “communion shots” with the juice.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
jmcrae,

I’m trying to understand what you mean here. Just saying that St. Paul had reason to become upset if St. Peter taught infallibly doesn’t make any sense to me. Did you mean something like “St. Paul had reason to become upset if St. Peter exercised infallibly needlessly”? (Like how Cardinal Newman was upset that Vatican I issue a dogmatic/infallible declaration that he considered to be unnecessary and unwise.)
No. I have not expressed myself very clearly.

The steps are these:

St. Peter had a vision in which God showed him that all foods are clean.

This was followed by his meeting with Cornelius, where he had the experience of seeing certain Gentiles, including Cornelius, being filled with the Holy Spirit and manifesting healings, tongues, etc.

St. Peter immediately understands the meaning of the vision that God had given to him, so he calls for the Gentiles to be baptized.

Upon hearing that Gentiles are being baptized, the rest of the Apostles call for the Gentiles to take up the kosher law and to be circumcised. The Gentiles refuse to do this.

St. Peter calls a Council in Jerusalem, where the matter is discussed at length. St. Peter, at the end of this meeting, makes an infallible decree - one that is not based in any existing tradition up to that moment in time, and is certainly not found anywhere in the Scriptures available to them (keeping in mind that at this point, not one word of the New Testament has yet been written down) - rather, he is drawing on the oral teachings of Christ, which are not altogether clear (we notice that the Evangelist has to explain to us, when Jesus makes that enigmatic statement about what goes into the mouth and what comes out of the mouth - he explains to us, “Here we see that Jesus made all foods clean,” - this did not become clear to the Apostles until, in fact, the Council at Jerusalem (and perhaps not even then - perhaps it was even later than that, that they finally made the connection).

St. Peter at this point makes an infallible decree that is based on absolutely nothing except his own authority, that the Gentiles will not be required to be circumcised, that they are to hear the Liturgy of the Word in the synagogues, and that they can eat or drink whatever they want as long as they don’t consume blood. Furthermore, that it is permitted for the Jews to partake of suppers with the Gentiles and to eat whatever they eat. This decree is promulgated by letter to all of the churches.

At some point along the way, St. Peter, for fear of certain Jews, sets himself apart from the Gentiles, rather than (as he himself had decreed) sitting down to supper with them and eating whatever they eat.

St. Paul (who as you recall was a Pharisee, and a real stickler for following God’s rules), instead of saying “Whew, he has finally come to his senses and is going by what the Bible tells us to do,” he gets angry with St. Peter and rebukes him for breaking - HUH? - God’s law. Wha … ? :eek:

Okay, so how did eating with the Gentiles go from being against God’s law, to being what the godly are supposed to do?

By the very decree of St. Peter. “What you bind on earth is bound in Heaven. What you loose on earth is loosed in Heaven.” That’s what Jesus said to Peter, in the hearing of all of the other Apostles.

At the Council of Jerusalem, Peter loosed the restriction on eating with Gentiles, and so God loosed the restriction in Heaven. This disciplinary rule was changed.

How?

By the infallible decree of St. Peter, which was promulgated by letter to the whole Church on earth.

🙂

(And then, because he is Simon, as well as Peter, he promptly broke the law, and got rebuked by the Pharisee for breaking it, because the Pharisee knew, didn’t he, how God makes His will known on the earth - it is by means of the Petrine office. 😃 )
 
I am not sure that I would find much freedom in a church with a rigid hierarchy, no direct access to God,
“No direct access to God.” Seriously?

We kneel before Him in our Tabernacles and gaze on Him at Adoration. We hold Him in our hands and put Him in our mouths at Holy Communion.

What do you mean, “no direct access to God”? :confused: 🤷
 
My comment about direct access to God was specifically about earthly confession, not Communion or kneeling before God. I do apologize. I did not mean to insinuate that Catholics do not have access to God.
I still believe that Jesus gave His apostles power to forgive sins, but my pastor is not an apostle. I have no problem confessing to him, but he cannot forgive my sins. Only God can do that.
I am not trying to be rude, but I just can’t see how Mary’s virginity is important.
I would say that there are differences over Communion within Methodism. Some of us see the elements as symbolic. However, doing shots with the grape juice is just disrespectful.
I don’t have issues with those who believe in transubstantiation. I just think that the controversies over communion should not divide Christians.
Anyway, thank you for your welcoming. Please understand that I have the utmost respect for Catholic beliefs and am not trying to shove Methodism at all of you. I like the Methodist church because it freed me from the bondage I was under in conservative churches who were very anti-Catholic, anti-woman, and interpreted Scripture in their own way. Besides, how could I be against Catholicism when my mother is Catholic?
Peace:)
 
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