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What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?
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Disciple96
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No problem. It isn’t my perspective, it’s much larger than little me. It’s a huge problem because people hear something like this and pass it on to others as if it were Gospel truth. Which it ain’t. But there is a certain willingness to believe terrible things of the Catholic Church. It’s my duty as a devout, loyal and faithful Catholic to defend her against false charges whenever I can.
Let’s put it behind us and be friends. I certainly never thought ill of you, I was only trying to point out a very important point and correct an error. Shake hands? (Ignore the object nearly hidden in my palm, no, it’s not a joy buzzer, that would be childish of me and I am extremely sedate, proper and mature.)
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ferdie
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I love his books! Very informative and unbiased!He’s a professor at my school!
In Christ,
Andrew
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ferdie
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You are welcome!
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Anna_Scott
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Disciple96:No problem. It isn’t my perspective, it’s much larger than little me. It’s a huge problem because people hear something like this and pass it on to others as if it were Gospel truth. Which it ain’t. But there is a certain willingness to believe terrible things of the Catholic Church. It’s my duty as a devout, loyal and faithful Catholic to defend her against false charges whenever I can.
Let’s put it behind us and be friends. I certainly never thought ill of you, I was only trying to point out a very important point and correct an error. Shake hands? (Ignore the object nearly hidden in my palm, no, it’s not a joy buzzer, that would be childish of me and I am extremely sedate, proper and mature.)
Agreed. Let us be friends. I’m sure we will meet again on another Forum topic.
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matahari
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Hi Anna, you could do some research on Grand Mufti Haj Muhammad Amin al-Husseini otherwise known as Hitler’s Mufti
Tonette
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Peter_J
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Quite right. It’s like C.S. Lewis said:
“Certainly I have met with little of the fabled odium theologicum from convinced members of communions different from my own. Hostility has come more from borderline people whether within the Church of England or without it: men not exactly obedient to any communion. This I find curiously consoling. It is at her centre, where her truest children dwell, that each communion is really closest to every other in spirit, if not in doctrine. And this suggests that at the centre of each there is something, or a Someone, who against all divergences of belief, all differences of temperament, all memories of mutual persecution, speaks with the same voice.”
Contrast that with this post from the Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor?? thread:
Obviously, you can’t draw much of a conclusion from one post. However, my experience suggests that what I just quoted represents the attitudes that quite a lot of Catholics have about Protestants (and vice versa) – especially on internet discussion forums.
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Anna_Scott
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Thank you for your reading recommendation. I do hope you read my apology. I was so worried about what I wrote yesterday.
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Christian55
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Matahari:
I am thankful that instead of passing judgment on me, so many of you- who are Catholic-are giving me reading suggestions. Thank you all so much.
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matahari
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Jon_Hus
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I wanted to weigh in on this topic, but first a little house keeping. “wisedomseeker” in post 91 makes the following mis-statement and I don’t think anyone else caught it, although I’m not 100% sure.
Here is “wisedomseeker”:
Please note wisedomseeker, The Jesus of the Bible did not say "“whosoever sins…” Hard to believe that given all of the chit chat regarding this passage on this forum that this went unchallanged (at least to my knowledge).
Anyway, the question “What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians”? I view this from the prespective of one who studies church history and theology. What were the conditions that prevailed before the split? First and most important was the absence of the Bible to the common man and second was the political leadership vacuum in western Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. If these two conditions can be re-created, then I think there could be unity between Christians.
It is interesting to note that the Roman Catholics on this forum don’t see anything in the RCC that needs to be reformed. The only problem is that the protestants will not accept RCC doctrine as is. The “mainline protestants” may someday come to agreement with Rome but the conservative, evangelical, fundamental protestants will not. There is nothing in such a re-union for them. The RCC has been trying to force their theology on protestants for almost 500 years now. But the cat is out of the bag so to speak. Democratic governments with their freedoms and the widespread publication of Bibles and other printed materials and the free exchange of ideas are the issues now.
Jon
Here is “wisedomseeker”:
From the Douay-Rheims, Matthew 16:18-19 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Please note wisedomseeker, The Jesus of the Bible did not say "“whosoever sins…” Hard to believe that given all of the chit chat regarding this passage on this forum that this went unchallanged (at least to my knowledge).
Anyway, the question “What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians”? I view this from the prespective of one who studies church history and theology. What were the conditions that prevailed before the split? First and most important was the absence of the Bible to the common man and second was the political leadership vacuum in western Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. If these two conditions can be re-created, then I think there could be unity between Christians.
It is interesting to note that the Roman Catholics on this forum don’t see anything in the RCC that needs to be reformed. The only problem is that the protestants will not accept RCC doctrine as is. The “mainline protestants” may someday come to agreement with Rome but the conservative, evangelical, fundamental protestants will not. There is nothing in such a re-union for them. The RCC has been trying to force their theology on protestants for almost 500 years now. But the cat is out of the bag so to speak. Democratic governments with their freedoms and the widespread publication of Bibles and other printed materials and the free exchange of ideas are the issues now.
Jon
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jmcrae
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qui_est_ce
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No need to be patronizing. Binding can refer to Authority to determine sin. (See Matthew 18 below).
Footnote to Matthew *18 14 [19] The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given “the key of the house of David,” which he authoritatively “opens” and “shuts” (Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter’s exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew16.htm#v19*
Read Mathew 18:15-19 where the same words can be found:
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"If your brother **sins (*against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
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If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
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If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
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Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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Again, (amen,) I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father
What is the Church? The Apostles. Authority given to Apostles to BIND and to LOOSE
*Couple that with the writings of ECF Ignatius of Antioch:
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. *
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
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qui_est_ce
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You beat me to it.
John 20:
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(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
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And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
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Whose **sins **you forgive are forgiven them, and whose **sins **you retain are retained.” *
And John 17 Jesus prays for His disciples:
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I** gave them your word**, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
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I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you** keep them from the evil one**.
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They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
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Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.
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As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
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And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.
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“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
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so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
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And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
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I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.
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Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am 7 they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
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Righteous Father, the world also does not know you, but I know you, and they know that you sent me.
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I made known to them your name and I will make it known, that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them.” *
Would you agree that Jesus’ prayers would be answered?
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Jon_Hus
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You two make my case for me. The question at hand is “What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians”?
The reply to my response is more Roman Catholic dogma. I give my opinion as to what I see is the situation, then follows more Roman theology, which is the whole problem in a nutshell. Well at least it is a problem to those who want “unity”.
The mistake that is made over and over again in these discussions is that the Roman Catholics think that protestants don’t know Catholic theology. Well maybe some don’t but I do and that is the reason why I’m not Roman Catholic.
Now, wisedomseeker said quote “our Lord said. “whosoever sins you forgive will be forgive…”” This is clearly a botched attempt to quote the Bible, your well thought out attempts to muddy the waters not withstanding. The only place we have direct quotes of Jesus words are in the Bible.
The reply to my response is more Roman Catholic dogma. I give my opinion as to what I see is the situation, then follows more Roman theology, which is the whole problem in a nutshell. Well at least it is a problem to those who want “unity”.
The mistake that is made over and over again in these discussions is that the Roman Catholics think that protestants don’t know Catholic theology. Well maybe some don’t but I do and that is the reason why I’m not Roman Catholic.
Now, wisedomseeker said quote “our Lord said. “whosoever sins you forgive will be forgive…”” This is clearly a botched attempt to quote the Bible, your well thought out attempts to muddy the waters not withstanding. The only place we have direct quotes of Jesus words are in the Bible.
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jmcrae
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Why did you bring up Matthew 16:18-19, if you knew already that that wasn’t what he was talking about?
You didn’t even appear to know which passage of Scripture was being quoted.
Not “botched” at all - look at John 20:23, in any translation you like.
Are you denying that John 20:23 says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” and that these are the words of Jesus, as quoted by St. John in his Gospel record?
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qui_est_ce
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I don’t think the issue is that Catholics on this board believe Protestants don’t know Catholic theology. I think a lot of Protestants think Catholics don’t know their theology. This may be true for many Catholics. But I don’t think it is necessary nor possible for all Catholics to have deep intellectual insight into the history and theology of the Catholic Church. We believe, as did the early Church, in the Authority of the Church as taught in the verses previously quoted.
*You believe that God is one. You do well. **Even the demons believe that *and tremble.
James 2:19
Sometimes the simple faith of a believer is a better witness to God than all the books in the world. Think of little old ladies going to early morning mass in the dark, praying their rosaries.
Not sure what is botched? Read John 20:23
John 20:23 (New International Version)
23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Also, you keep referring to “Roman.” It would be more correct to say “Catholic” as Roman is just one of several rites of the Catholic Church.
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qui_est_ce
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I hope Jon Hus comes back to explain his interpretation of that verse.Not “botched” at all - look at John 20:23, in any translation you like.
Are you denying that John 20:23 says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” and that these are the words of Jesus, as quoted by St. John in his Gospel record?
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jmcrae
Guest
I hope so, too. The plain sense of the text seems very clear, at least to me.I hope Jon Hus comes back to explain his interpretation of that verse.
Perhaps there is something that our hundreds of dedicated theologians, working full time on the study of the Scriptures from generation to generation, have been missing, these 2,000 years.
(I seriously doubt it, however.)
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Scardinoz
Guest
As for me, the biggest obstacles to ‘taking the swim’ have been or were (in no particular order)…
Past:
Past:
- Misunderstanding of veneration of Mary
- Asking intercession of saints
- Infant baptism
- Confession to priest
- Communion actually consisting of the literal body and blood of Christ, as compared to a act done in remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice and, in a sense, a replacement for passover
- Some reservations about the amount of emphasis placed on asking Mary’s intercession though, since it is not a required emphasis (correct me if I am wrong), it is not a pressing concern
- Chastity vow of clergy - I’m getting married on Sunday and I’ve been given the distinct calling to marry and the distinct calling to involve myself in ministry and seemingly go through seminary
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