What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5150912:

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

I admit I skipped right to the end after seeing that this thread went quickly into an argument about Religion…

What thread doesn’t?

The biggest obstacle is faith in an Authority (or lack of recognizing one), given to us by Jesus (Peter), annointed by the Holy Spirit, won for all by Christ’s blood.

You’re referring to the papacy and papal infallibility, right?

All we have to do is be humble enough to admit that. All the rest will fall into place.

You appear to be suggesting that all those people who do not accept the papacy and its necessarily attendant Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility do so because they lack humility. If that’s what you’re suggesting then I respectfully disagree.

Scripture will then be integrated; (note to non-Catholics – please get a complete Bible first).

The Catholic Bible contains only 73 books whereas the Orthodox Bible contains 76 books. Would you think it discourteous of an Orthodox Christian publicly to imply that the Catholic Bible is deficient?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[Eric_Hyom]

You appear to be suggesting that all those people who do not accept the papacy and its necessarily attendant Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility do so because they lack humility. If that’s what you’re suggesting then I respectfully disagree.

I look at the teachings of Jesus as being infallible, yet he washed the feet of his disciples. We should really be washing each others feet, this is a most profound experience.

 

[jpaul1953]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

Simply for Protestants to accept once more the Authority of the Church without question as it is spoken by Jesus Christ in Matt 16:15-20. But before the Church can achieve this She should probably help fellow Catholics accept the Authority so we may be unified.
And with Authority comes acceptance of all the doctrines/dogmas of the Church.

Jpaul1953

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5150912:

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

Simply for Protestants to accept once more the Authority of the Church without question as it is spoken by Jesus Christ in Matt 16:15-20.

Jpaul1953

I don’t think it’s at all simple for Protestants or indeed for any non–Catholic Western Christians. I suggest that a genuine inquirer who is seeking truth will likely do so in an orderly and logical fashion and therefore doubtless first scrutinize the historical record. The historical record reveals that the Orthodox Church has just as good a case for claiming to be the One True Church as the Catholic Church since they were one and the same Church for over a thousand years until the Schism of 1054. During that first millennium, seven Ecumenical Councils hammered out a clear understanding of the doctrines by which Christians should live. Since the Schism of 1054, the Catholic Church has promulgated variations in belief with which the Orthodox Church takes issue. The Catholic Church refers to these beliefs and the method by which they were brought to light as “development of doctrine” whereas the Orthodox Church views the doctrines as both unnecessary and wayward.

Perhaps you’ll agree that this scenario constitutes a huge obstacle for an outsider such as a Protestant or non–Catholic Western Christian that makes his or her quest for truth far from simple.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

I look at the teachings of Jesus as being infallible, yet he washed the feet of his disciples. We should really be washing each others feet, this is a most profound experience.

Hi Eric,

I’ve taken part in such a ceremony and I agree that it is a profound experience. What do you think would be the reaction amongst Catholics if the pope – who claims to be Christ’s representative on earth – were to ask if he could wash the feet of the Ecumenical Patriarch in a public ceremony and then did so?

Hypothetically,
Mick

 

[DLClark]

Main difference.
Christianity teaches, from the Bible, that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone Eph 2:1-9.
Catholocism teaches that salvation is by works.

There is major difference here.

 

[Peter_J]

I look at the teachings of Jesus as being infallible, yet he washed the feet of his disciples. We should really be washing each others feet, this is a most profound experience.

Well said, EH. I think it’s so sad when Catholics and Protestants look at each other and each say to themselves “The difference between us and them is that we are humble and they aren’t.”

 

[Eric_Hyom]

What do you think would be the reaction amongst Catholics if the pope – who claims to be Christ’s representative on earth – were to ask if he could wash the feet of the in a public ceremony and then did so?

I cannot speak for other Catholics, but I would see this as a great blessing. But not only the Ecumenical Patriarch, I would also welcome this to happen between the Pope and with representatives of all the major Christian Denominations.

Blessings

Eric

 

[SSTeacher]

Catholocism teaches that salvation is by works.

Are you sure?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Well said, EH. I think it’s so sad when Catholics and Protestants look at each other and each say to themselves “The difference between us and them is that we are humble and they aren’t.”

I agree.

Agreeably,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5344263:

What do you think would be the reaction amongst Catholics if the pope – who claims to be Christ’s representative on earth – were to ask if he could wash the feet of the Ecumenical Patriarch in a public ceremony and then did so?

I cannot speak for other Catholics, but I would see this as a great blessing. But not only the Ecumenical Patriarch, I would also welcome this to happen between the Pope and with representatives of all the major Christian Denominations.

Blessings

Eric

Wouldn’t that be something?

Thoughtfully,
Mick

 

[jmcrae]

The Catholic Bible contains only 73 books whereas the Orthodox Bible contains 76 books. Would you think it discourteous of an Orthodox Christian publicly to imply that the Catholic Bible is deficient?

Curiously,
Mick

If it is indeed the teaching of the Orthodox churches not in communion with Rome that all 76 of those books are, indeed, the inerrant Word of God, then I would wonder at him if he did not express this opinion, since if the 76 are indeed the full sum of the Scriptures, then the 73 (by definition) are not.

The only reason for not mentioning the fact would be some idea of politeness, or agreeing to disagree - which, while pleasant if we’re just taking coffee together and discussing the weather, sports, and our children’s progress at school, isn’t ultimately very educational if we were intending instead to be having some kind of ecumenical dialogue.

 

[Bob_McKissick]

Bob McKissick:

I appreciate your tips on EWTN.

I think you have misunderstood me. I agree with what you said: “Our feelings come and go like the winds.”

I have indeed spoken about how I feel about certain things, but my faith is not driven by “feelings.” My faith and beliefs are driven through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and “by every word that comes from the mouth of God.”

In the Creed we say, “We believe in the Holy Spirit Who has spoken through the Prophets, etc.” Could it be that the Pope and the Bishops are those Prophets through whom the Holy Spirit speaks? Could it be that the Church(RC) is the “Mouth of God”? I’m on your side!! bob mck

 

[Bob_McKissick]

I don’t think it’s at all simple for Protestants or indeed for any non–Catholic Western Christians. I suggest that a genuine inquirer who is seeking truth will likely do so in an orderly and logical fashion and therefore doubtless first scrutinize the historical record. The historical record reveals that the Orthodox Church has just as good a case for claiming to be the One True Church as the Catholic Church since they were one and the same Church for over a thousand years until the Schism of 1054. During that first millennium, seven Ecumenical Councils hammered out a clear understanding of the doctrines by which Christians should live. Since the Schism of 1054, the Catholic Church has promulgated variations in belief with which the Orthodox Church takes issue. The Catholic Church refers to these beliefs and the method by which they were brought to light as “development of doctrine” whereas the Orthodox Church views the doctrines as both unnecessary and wayward.

Perhaps you’ll agree that this scenario constitutes a huge obstacle for an outsider such as a Protestant or non–Catholic Western Christian that makes his or her quest for truth far from simple.

Cordially,
Mick

When the Schism occurred, Peter was with the West. The East claims that no council has been valid since the Schism and therefore the Church has been hamstrung ever since while the West has acted like the Church acted before the Schism. The East doesn’t seem to be as concerned as the West about Unity. The question of Unity is vital!!! "That they may be one as We are One so the WORLD WILL KNOW THAT YOU HAVE SENT ME!!! The World doesn’t know that Christ is sent by the Father because we are no longer ONE!! God help us, PLEASE!! bob mck

 

[Anna_Scott]

Main difference.
Christianity teaches, from the Bible, that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone Eph 2:1-9.
Catholocism teaches that salvation is by works.

There is major difference here.

DLClark:

I cannot speak for the Roman Catholic Church, but I can speak for myself.

I am a non-Catholic Christian, and I do not find Biblical support for salvation by** faith alone**. Faith is part of our Salvation, but not faith alone. I think we have to look at the New Testament as a whole. We can miss some very important truths by pulling out one verse to justify a belief (which I, also, have done-very easy to fall into this.)

In my Post #656 on 06/18/2009, I quoted multiple passages of Scripture, which have much to say about "works."

DLClark, would you read the following Scriptures and give me your comments?

John 5:25-29 (NASB):
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV):
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 12:14-16 (NIV):
14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

James 2:14-18(ESV):
14 What good is it, my brothers,** if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him**?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17** So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead**.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Footnotes: a. James 2:16 Or benefit

James 2:21-26 (ESV):
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

2 Peter 3:16-18 (NIV):
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

1 John 2:4-6 (NIV):
4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

I look forward to your comments.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Simply for Protestants to accept once more the Authority of the Church without question as it is spoken by Jesus Christ in Matt 16:15-20. But before the Church can achieve this She should probably help fellow Catholics accept the Authority so we may be unified.
And with Authority comes acceptance of all the doctrines/dogmas of the Church.

Jpaul1953

Jpaul1953:

Do you believe there has ever been a point in history when the doctrines/dogmas of the RCC were in error?

Or do you believe every word of Catholic doctrines/dogmas have traveled through history with total infallibility?

Anna

 

[Bob_McKissick]

DLClark:

I cannot speak for the Roman Catholic Church, but I can speak for myself.

I am a non-Catholic Christian, and I do not find Biblical support for salvation by** faith alone**. Faith is part of our Salvation, but not faith alone. I think we have to look at the New Testament as a whole. We can miss some very important truths by pulling out one verse to justify a belief (which I, also, have done-very easy to fall into this.)

In my Post #656 on 06/18/2009, I quoted multiple passages of Scripture, which have much to say about "works."

DLClark, would you read the following Scriptures and give me your comments?

John 5:25-29 (NASB):
25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NIV):
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 12:14-16 (NIV):
14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

James 2:14-18(ESV):
14 What good is it, my brothers,** if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him**?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
17** So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead**.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Footnotes: a. James 2:16 Or benefit

James 2:21-26 (ESV):
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

2 Peter 3:16-18 (NIV):
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

1 John 2:4-6 (NIV):
4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

I look forward to your comments.

Anna

DLClark has misstated the Catholic position on salvation. The Church teaches that salvation is by faith and works as St. James in his epistle stated, “For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith also without works is dead.” Read James epistle 2, 14-26. Anna, I love your quotes!!! bob mck

 

[Anna_Scott]

In the Creed we say, “We believe in the Holy Spirit Who has spoken through the Prophets, etc.” Could it be that the Pope and the Bishops are those Prophets through whom the Holy Spirit speaks? Could it be that the Church(RC) is the “Mouth of God”? I’m on your side!! bob mck

Bob McKissick:

I must say, there has been quite a bit of activity on this Thread, since my last Post yesterday evening.

Bob, I do believe that the Holy Spirit has spoken through Prophets. The Bible is a testament to that.

I also believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us as individuals–in prayer, in discerning spirits, in revealing truth, and in many other ways.

I believe that both Prophets and Divinely Inspirited Scripture can reveal “Words from the Mouth of God.”

Obviously, if I believed that all this was accomplished only through the Catholic Church, I would be Catholic.

Respectfully,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

DLClark has misstated the Catholic position on salvation. The Church teaches that salvation is by faith and works as St. James in his epistle stated, “For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith also without works is dead.” Read James epistle 2, 14-26. Anna, I love your quotes!!! bob mck

Bob,

I had to smile about this, Bob. Glad you like my quotes about faith and works.

Ironically, many of my Protestant friends would disagree with me, even with the Scriptures in front of them.

Enjoying this lively discussion,

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Well said, EH. I think it’s so sad when Catholics and Protestants look at each other and each say to themselves “The difference between us and them is that we are humble and they aren’t.”

Peter J:

I am a non-Catholic Christian. By default, I fall into the Protestant sector.

I have never said to myself or any one else: “The difference between us and them is that we are humble and they aren’t.” Where did you get this idea?

Please do not lump all Protestants together. There are many non-Catholic religions that make up the group called “Protestants.” Some of these religions are very different.

If I can accomplish one thing on this Thread, it would be to stress the fact that Protestantism, in and of itself, is not a religion. People on this particular Thread are, for the most part, very respectful of one another. However, there are some Threads that make the word “Protestant” sound like dirty word.

I do not group all non-Protestants together (i.e. Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox) and make assumptions about what non-Protestants believe collectively.

Yet, I cannot claim that I have never made an assumption about the beliefs of a particular religion. We all hear things from our churches and our friends. We are all human.

As for now–this moment; I am here asking questions—to learn about your beliefs as directly-spoken by each of you.

If there is to be any hope of unity, we all must set aside assumptions, and move forward with questions and discussions.

Anna