What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[wisdomseeker]

wisdomseeker…
**
I am sorry if I gave you the impression that what Jesus wants my life to be can be summed up in a few sentences of the bible.
i would be crazy to begin to think that.**

by coming here and start quoting verses from the Bible wont help you. dont you think we know all about them? the Church compiled the Bible remember this long before your religion came to existence. the lies of protestants that Catholics dont know what is in the Bible is an evil that make you guys look like fools when coming here quoting the selected Bible verses. dont take this personally.

I am glad to hear you are not hurt by the comments…as you have seen from post 3 there are those who are hurt.

i am not hurt, actually, i feel for those who ignore the Church and its entire history to belief in lies from a few men some 500 years ago, even today when everyone has complete access to all kinds of information, but they choose to stay ignorant.

obey alll the commandment?
in as much as i pray to God to keep me strong and not give in to temptation, I will admit I fall short of staying perfect and obeying all 10 commandments 24/7.

i am not talking about the 10 commandements. i am talking about what Jesus has said to the Apostles to do. and what the Apostles has told us to do. i am talking about the the Truth of the teachings of Christ. are you following the Truth? the Truth is Jesus and all He has said. one thing Jesus said. “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His Blood, you have no life in you.”

I can not thank Jesus enough for loving me so much that He would shed His precious blood so that my confessed sins are forgiven.

yes. Jesus loves men. the question remain do you love Him enough to seek where He is truly present? do you hear these words? " the Church of the living God, the Pillar and Bullwark of the Truth." can you tell me if you church has all the teachings of Christ in Truth?

**come back to true faith?? hmmmm

In your own words please tell me what you believe true faith to be
thank you and God bless**

that one Faith Jesus gave us from the beginning. He built a Church, a set of beliefs that we all must believe and obey.
One Faith, One batptism, one Spirit, one Church.

St paul says: be of one mind. what does this means? what the apostles tought then, it must be thought today. what they believed then, it must be believed today. if you trust that the Holy Spirit protected the Church when compiled the Bible and you believe to be the Word of God, why dont you trust that the same Spirit protects the Church from age to age? why do follow error? when did you beliefs against the Church came into existence? do you know? can you trace your beliefs way back to the Apostles? can you give witnesses from the past that testifies to what you believe? or do you thing Christianity is only 500 yrs old?

“Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the
Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached
by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded;
and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.”
St. Athanasius, Letter to Serapion of Thmuis, 359 A.D…

 

[mpjw2]

wisdomseeker:
that one Faith Jesus gave us from the beginning. He built a Church, a set of beliefs that we all must believe and obey.
One Faith, One batptism, one Spirit, one Church.

St paul says: be of one mind. what does this means? what the apostles tought then, it must be thought today. what they believed then, it must be believed today. if you trust that the Holy Spirit protected the Church when compiled the Bible and you believe to be the Word of God, why dont you trust that the same Spirit protects the Church from age to age? why do follow error? when did you beliefs against the Church came into existence? do you know? can you trace your beliefs way back to the Apostles? can you give witnesses from the past that testifies to what you believe? or do you thing Christianity is only 500 yrs old?

“Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the
Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached
by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded;
and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.”
St. Athanasius, Letter to Serapion of Thmuis, 359 A.D…

wisdomseeker…thank you for your response

my beliefs against God’s church???

I believe the one obstacle here is the “one church” statement you made…

Am I correct?

I believe God’s one church body consist of many differ parts (all Christian churches including Catholics, baptists, methodists, pentacostols, protestants…etc)

I believe God has called each part of His church to reach the lost world and be a witness to the love of Jesus so that they also may inherit the joys of heaven as you and I will.

I believe we are all Chistians with the same faith and belief that…

Jesus is God’s Son who died to take the punishment for our sins to illustrate His love for us, rose, and will come again

that Jesus wants us to be baptized

that there is one Holy spirit who lives in all of us

I have one faith that what i just stated is absolute truth

 

[mpjw2]

another obstacle was braught to light today.

assurance of salvation

I attended a funeral of a coworker … 50 years old… and yes he and his family are catholic
A few months ago at work “Bob” gave witness to me of Jesus by saying to me “Jesus loves me”. I responded to him, “He sure does”

I now believe that this was a sign from God letting me know that He was planning to take “Bob” home and to let me know that he will be in His hands in heaven.

Today i shared with Bobs parents the love of Jesus their son expressed to me.

They were so appreciative of that, they shared with me … in addition to finding rosary beads in his house a bible was found in the glove box of bobs car.

we all had the peace and belief that bob was in heaven.

question…then why does a priest pray may the soul of the faithful departed have eternal life?

no need to pray for the deceast if they already are in heaven

 

[SSTeacher]

question…then why does a priest pray may the soul of the faithful departed have eternal life?

Wouldn’t he be failing in his duty if he didn’t?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[Bob_McKissick]

another obstacle was braught to light today.

assurance of salvation

I attended a funeral of a coworker … 50 years old… and yes he and his family are catholic
A few months ago at work “Bob” gave witness to me of Jesus by saying to me “Jesus loves me”. I responded to him, “He sure does”

I now believe that this was a sign from God letting me know that He was planning to take “Bob” home and to let me know that he will be in His hands in heaven.

Today i shared with Bobs parents the love of Jesus their son expressed to me.

They were so appreciative of that, they shared with me … in addition to finding rosary beads in his house a bible was found in the glove box of bobs car.

we all had the peace and belief that bob was in heaven.

question…then why does a priest pray may the soul of the faithful departed have eternal life?

no need to pray for the deceast if they already are in heaven

These facts indicate that he is probably in heaven but the final judgement is God’s and we all pray that the souls of the faithful departed may rest in peace and have eternal light shine on them. When I pass on to the just judgement of God I pray that those who are still here will say the same prayer for me. bobmck

 

[mpjw2]

Wouldn’t he be failing in his duty if he didn’t?

Respectfully,
Mick

hi ssteacher

yes he would be failing his duty.
However, my point being…

if the departed is already in heaven or hell the split second after their bodily death on earth, what good does praying do if they are already at their eternal destination?

hence here lies another one of the obstacles…

I believe one can be at peace with God’s promise stated in John 3:16

God bless

 

[Disciple96]

hi ssteacher

yes he would be failing his duty.
However, my point being…

if the departed is already in heaven or hell the split second after their bodily death on earth, what good does praying do if they are already at their eternal destination?

hence here lies another one of the obstacles…

I believe one can be at peace with God’s promise stated in John 3:16

God bless

Well, the notion that one could (and that it is a good and noble thing to) pray for those who have gone before us is attested to in Maccabees. And the teaching on the final purification, which is what is meant by purgation, comes from Saint Paul: a man’s works will be tried as by fire, referring to the way metal (such as gold) is purified by fire. And also St. John and St. Peter (see below).

Here are some Scriptural verses.

“…each man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man’s work of what sort it is.” – 1 Cor 3:13.

“…that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ:.” 1 Pet 1:7.

Now it’s clear that this fire is not going to be experienced in Hell, because by the time one gets there, he’s already gone through the Judgment. So where is this fire experienced? Read the verses before and after this one and tell me that Peter and Paul are talking about this life. I don’t think so. And the Church never thought so either. The Church has always taught that this is experienced after death by the soul that is not going to be sent to Hell but to Heaven. It’s like having someone wash your feet or even your whole body off before entering someone’s home or palace. You wouldn’t walk in there with mud all over you.

“…and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” Rev 21:27

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.” Rev 22:14

This is why it helps so much, and really is necessary, to read the Bible with the Church. Remember the Ethiopian in the chariot, reading Isaiah? Philip asked him if he understood what he was reading. And his answer: “How can I, sir, unless someone guides me?” Act 8:30 - Act 8:31 Philp, by the way, was an ordained deacon. And after he instructed the man, the man requested baptism and Philip baptized him. That is not an insignificant story thrown in to fill up space on a scroll.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5474718:

Wouldn’t he be failing in his duty if he didn’t?

Respectfully,
Mick

hi ssteacher

yes he would be failing his duty.
However, my point being…

if the departed is already in heaven or hell the split second after their bodily death on earth, what good does praying do if they are already at their eternal destination?

hence here lies another one of the obstacles…

Yes, it certainly seems to be an obstacle. But I think it ought to be acknowledged that we humans cannot know for certain how the Lord responds to our prayers. Can prayers be applied backward, forward, sideways, or any which way within the spiritual realm? Would the Creator of heaven and earth find that a problem? Moreover, the assumption appears to be that judgment immediately after death determines the eternal state of the soul. But if that assumption is a little wayward the obstacle might seem less daunting. It’s perhaps a case of momentarily stepping aside from the theology with which one has grown comfortable whereupon some different presuppositions become visible.

I believe one can be at peace with God’s promise stated in John 3:16.

May the peace of the Lord be with you always.

God bless

God bless you, also.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Disciple96]

The teaching on Purgatory does not deny or contradict the teachings on Judgment immediately after death. The only ones who will experience Purgatory are those who have been judged and are to be sent to Heaven. However, they still have to be completely clean before they can go there. Otherwise, without this cleaning, you would have to have achieved it while still on earth. And who of us could claim to have accomplished this?

It’s really a beautiful and wonderful teaching when you think about it. Without this merciful action of God on our souls, we would be unclean and unable to enter into His presence. Our Lord is a merciful Lord. Thank God!

 

[SSTeacher]

The teaching on Purgatory does not deny or contradict the teachings on Judgment immediately after death. The only ones who will experience Purgatory are those who have been judged and are to be sent to Heaven. However, they still have to be completely clean before they can go there. Otherwise, without this cleaning, you would have to have achieved it while still on earth. And who of us could claim to have accomplished this?

It’s really a beautiful and wonderful teaching when you think about it. Without this merciful action of God on our souls, we would be unclean and unable to enter into His presence. Our Lord is a merciful Lord. Thank God!

The doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic one and as such constitutes an obstacle to Christian Unity.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

The doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic one and as such constitutes an obstacle to Christian Unity.

Respectfully,
Mick

Not so SSTeacher. Join our discussion on C.S. Lewis in this forum. He believed in it and defended it as an Anglican

God bless you

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5475898:

The doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic one and as such constitutes an obstacle to Christian Unity.

Respectfully,
Mick

Not so SSTeacher. Join our discussion on C.S. Lewis in this forum. He believed in it and defended it as an Anglican

God bless you

Is the Catholic doctrine of purgatory now a formal teaching of the Church of England?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[Disciple96]

Is the Catholic doctrine of purgatory now a formal teaching of the Church of England?

Curiously,
Mick

I know you didn’t ask me this, but I just wanted to say, first, I don’t know. And second, I thnk it was, however, held by the Catholic Church for a while before it was actually defined, as is the case with many teachings (and even the Scriptures of the New Testament themselves). They are held and taught by the Church before she actually spells them out. She usually only spells something out when folks down the line have begun to disagree and argue. Then she studies and prays and afterwards defines and pronounces what she has always held to be true. Is it the same way with other communions?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Is the Catholic doctrine of purgatory now a formal teaching of the Church of England?

Curiously,
Mick

In the words of my good friend GKC, “*formal *teaching of the church of England ”

I of course took liberties with that quote but you get the point. I do not believe it is considered formal teaching of the CoE but that didn’t seem to concern C.S. Lewis any.

God bless you

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Which came first, the Church or the Scriptures? Best to you and yours, bobmck

Hi Bob,
I sort of get this nagging feeling here Bob that you would like nothing better than to drag me into some controversial debate but I’m not going there with you.
My focus here is always going to be on Christ and His Words. I will not be pointing to myself, nor to any other mortal man who thinks he knows better as to what is right and what is wrong. I will only point, as the blessed Papias did, to what the Lord has said and what the apostles of the Lord, through the Holy Spirit have said.
I am not here to stir up discension but to share our common love for Christ. This thread is called, to paraphrase, “what is the biggest obstacle to Christian unity?” Certainly one (and not from you) is distasteful bashing that sometimes goes on between Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic Christians. I see people winning arguments but wonder if they lose the battle by doing so. First and foremost what we say here should be mindful of bringing honor to the Lord. He richly deserves that from everyone of us. To say that some threads have the elements of spiritual pride is an understatement. I avoid these and pray the Lord will give me the sense to turn the other cheek and just walk away to better pursuits of my time.
I also came here to pray and to see if God was working here. He is. I have seen so many on this forum who have a deep abiding love for Jesus Christ and I praise God for that every day. I love them all and have been very blessed by these. Bob, as long as there are two people in the world there are going to be things that people will disagree on. Do all Catholic bishops agree with each other? Are there no disputes even within local churches of all types? When we are not looking at the cross the poison is withering.
If we stay with the elements of the Nicene creed you have basic form of unity from which all Christians can at least share our common love of the Lord. When we speak about the love of Christ & His sacrifice that is something we all should be able to agree on! Doctrines and Dogma alwats seems to undergo change but Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It is Jesus that died for our sins and it is the Holy Spirit that purifies us sinners. Many a saint starts out as a wicked sinner, including Augustine, but as we grow in the Lord God changes us and we see things differently and repent. God then makes the true difference in our lives!
You ask me what came first the church or the Scriptures. Technically speaking, because the Scriptures are the very Words of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, I would have to say the Scriptures came first. Weren’t the prophesies of Christ there in Genesis, long before there was ever a Church or a covenant with Abraham! “Covenant” is “binding” upon “words” & we have the Word of God spoken to Abram, which started it all! He was told to number the stars & the sands of the sea but that was promised to him’ & not what he already had. There was no Church then but covenant of promise. When God did chose to covenant with His people He “Himself” wrote with His finger the ten commandments delivering it to Moses. So Scripture again preceeded 'covenant" & the Church. My last point is Jesus said “Scripture cannot be broken” and this was long before the birth of the New testament or Catholic Church, which began at Pentecost 50 days after the passover. Am I am wrong about this?
I desire overall to speak of the beauty of the Lord & why we need to be upon our knees thanking Him everyday for His goodness & mercy towards sinners such as you and I. This is why I will not be pulled into doctrinal debates.

2 Timothy 2:11-16; 19-24
Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with Him we shall also live with Him. If we endure we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the Name of Christ depart from iniquity.” But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient.”
Thank you for these words Holy Spirit & thank you St. Paul.

I want to be a good servant of Jesus so now I will just shutup and honor the Lord who is Holy, Holy, Holy. All heaven and earth are filled with His Glory! Hosanna in the Highest. And Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.**

Honor, Honor, Honor! to You Lord! Honor and Praise surround who You Are!
youtube.com/watch?v=FYnWp2ueQDI&feature=related **

May we be blessed in Christ Jesus, Erchomai Kyrios

 

[jmcrae]

hi jmcrae,

yes i love Jesus for the way he has shown that He loves me.

as to the purpose of the commandments, if i were to break every one of them and i do not confess them, is it your belief that Jesus will or will not love me?

Psalm 139 tells us that Jesus loves even those who have gone to the slowest depths of Hell. However, His love for them does not keep them out of Hell. They must love Him in return, in order to get out of there.

my belief is that he will still love me and patiently wait for the day I sincerely confess, repent and ask for His forgiveness.

And, if that day never comes …? What then?

 

[Bob_McKissick]

Hi Bob,
I sort of get this nagging feeling here Bob that you would like nothing better than to drag me into some controversial debate but I’m not going there with you.
My focus here is always going to be on Christ and His Words. I will not be pointing to myself, nor to any other mortal man who thinks he knows better as to what is right and what is wrong. I will only point, as the blessed Papias did, to what the Lord has said and what the apostles of the Lord, through the Holy Spirit have said.
I am not here to stir up discension but to share our common love for Christ. This thread is called, to paraphrase, “what is the biggest obstacle to Christian unity?” Certainly one (and not from you) is distasteful bashing that sometimes goes on between Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic Christians. I see people winning arguments but wonder if they lose the battle by doing so. First and foremost what we say here should be mindful of bringing honor to the Lord. He richly deserves that from everyone of us. To say that some threads have the elements of spiritual pride is an understatement. I avoid these and pray the Lord will give me the sense to turn the other cheek and just walk away to better pursuits of my time.
I also came here to pray and to see if God was working here. He is. I have seen so many on this forum who have a deep abiding love for Jesus Christ and I praise God for that every day. I love them all and have been very blessed by these. Bob, as long as there are two people in the world there are going to be things that people will disagree on. Do all Catholic bishops agree with each other? Are there no disputes even within local churches of all types? When we are not looking at the cross the poison is withering.
If we stay with the elements of the Nicene creed you have basic form of unity from which all Christians can at least share our common love of the Lord. When we speak about the love of Christ & His sacrifice that is something we all should be able to agree on! Doctrines and Dogma alwats seems to undergo change but Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It is Jesus that died for our sins and it is the Holy Spirit that purifies us sinners. Many a saint starts out as a wicked sinner, including Augustine, but as we grow in the Lord God changes us and we see things differently and repent. God then makes the true difference in our lives!
You ask me what came first the church or the Scriptures. Technically speaking, because the Scriptures are the very Words of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, I would have to say the Scriptures came first. Weren’t the prophesies of Christ there in Genesis, long before there was ever a Church or a covenant with Abraham! “Covenant” is “binding” upon “words” & we have the Word of God spoken to Abram, which started it all! He was told to number the stars & the sands of the sea but that was promised to him’ & not what he already had. There was no Church then but covenant of promise. When God did chose to covenant with His people He “Himself” wrote with His finger the ten commandments delivering it to Moses. So Scripture again preceeded 'covenant" & the Church. My last point is Jesus said “Scripture cannot be broken” and this was long before the birth of the New testament or Catholic Church, which began at Pentecost 50 days after the passover. Am I am wrong about this?
I desire overall to speak of the beauty of the Lord & why we need to be upon our knees thanking Him everyday for His goodness & mercy towards sinners such as you and I. This is why I will not be pulled into doctrinal debates.

I want to be a good servant of Jesus so now I will just shutup and honor the Lord who is Holy, Holy, Holy. All heaven and earth are filled with His Glory! Hosanna in the Highest. And Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.**

Honor, Honor, Honor! to You Lord! Honor and Praise surround who You Are!**
youtube.com/watch?v=FYnWp2ueQDI&feature=related

May we be blessed in Christ Jesus, Erchomai Kyrios

Jesus Christ is Lord!!! One God, One Faith, One Church!! May the Spirit be with you!! bobmck

 

[SSTeacher]

I know you didn’t ask me this, but I just wanted to say, first, I don’t know. And second, I think it was, however, held by the Catholic Church for a while before it was actually defined, as is the case with many teachings (and even the Scriptures of the New Testament themselves). They are held and taught by the Church before she actually spells them out. She usually only spells something out when folks down the line have begun to disagree and argue. Then she studies and prays and afterwards defines and pronounces what she has always held to be true. Is it the same way with other communions?

My understanding is that the Catholic Church first promulgated the doctrine of purgatory to the Catholic faithful via the Council of Florence.

I believe other communions introduce their discovered or developed doctrines in similar ways – with the exception of the Orthodox Church, which does not embrace new doctrines.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Roman_Catholic;5475908:

SSTeacher;5475898:

The doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic one and as such constitutes an obstacle to Christian Unity.

Respectfully,
Mick

Not so SSTeacher. Join our discussion on C.S. Lewis in this forum. He believed in it and defended it as an Anglican

God bless youIs the Catholic doctrine of purgatory now a formal teaching of the Church of England?

Curiously,
Mick

SSTeacher;5475947:

Is the Catholic doctrine of purgatory now a formal teaching of the Church of England?

Curiously,
Mick

In the words of my good friend GKC, “*formal *teaching of the church of England ”

I of course took liberties with that quote but you get the point. I do not believe it is considered formal teaching of the CoE but that didn’t seem to concern C.S. Lewis any.

God bless you

No, it didn’t. However, the reason I asked the question was because after I declared that the doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic doctrine and as such constitutes an obstacle to Christian Unity you suggested it wasn’t so and adduced the belief of C.S. Lewis to endorse your opinion. I quite like the writings of C.S. Lewis but perhaps you’ll agree that he was his own man and believed whatever he wanted – which practice I understand is allowed within the Anglican communion as evidenced by the alternative beliefs that Bishop Spong has declared he endorses. So it seems to me that if a non–Catholic – even one as notable and brilliant as C. S. Lewis – chooses to believe in purgatory it doesn’t alter the fact that the doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic doctrine.

I enjoyed reading the posts on the thread you directed toward, though. Many thanks.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

No, it didn’t. However, the reason I asked the question was because after I declared that the doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic doctrine and as such constitutes an obstacle to Christian Unity you suggested it wasn’t so and adduced the belief of C.S. Lewis to endorse your opinion. I quite like the writings of C.S. Lewis but perhaps you’ll agree that he was his own man and believed whatever he wanted – which practice I understand is allowed within the Anglican communion as evidenced by the alternative beliefs that Bishop Spong has declared he endorses. So it seems to me that if a non–Catholic – even one as notable and brilliant as C. S. Lewis – chooses to believe in purgatory it doesn’t alter the fact that the doctrine of purgatory is an exclusively Catholic doctrine.

I enjoyed reading the posts on the thread you directed toward, though. Many thanks.

Appreciatively,
Mick

How many examples does it take to disprove a premise? One? C.S. Lewis was not Catholic, therefore the premise that Purgatory is exclusively a Catholic doctrine is false. C.S. Lewis’ belief in Purgatory didn’t come from Catholicism. That belief he got from the Bible. Purgatory is a Biblical belief.

I am glad you enjoyed the thread on C.S. Lewis.

God bless you