What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[SSTeacher]

J. The profanation that the Catholic Church forgives sins.

Why the gratuitous insult? Presumably you feel the same way about Holy Orthodoxy?

It seems to me that there are two ways in which we can confess our sins. The first option is to confess our sins directly to God. I guess that’s the response you would give if somebody asked you? It’s certainly the response I gave when I was an Evangelical:

Question: How exactly is that done? Well, since we’re talking about human beings, I think it’s fair to say that it’s almost always done without embarrassment on the part of the penitent. He or she is alone when the confessing is done so no other human being knows the details.

Let me adduce this notion apropos the second option.

Confession is a Christian ritual with a communal character. Confession in the church differs from confession in your living room or your car in the same way that getting married in church differs from simply living together. The communal aspect of the event tends to safeguard it and solidify it and call everybody involved to account. The person hearing the confession represents the community. That person is in a position to provide guidance and wisdom that can help each penitent overcome attitudes and habits that take us off course and which damage both ourselves and the community. Confession in the presence of another human being is dismaying to the proud (which means it dismays everybody) but I respectfully submit that it’s good for us.

I wouldn’t seek unity with Catholics any more than I would with Jehovah Witnesses or Muslims. My Jesus is not your Jesus.
Nuff said.

So if you’re not seeking any kind of unity with Catholics and think the Catholic Church is involved in profanation why do you stay on this forum? Your attitude is disappointing.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

 

[mark_a]

j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Moral theology. Namely divorce, contraception, abortion, end of life issues, etc. The others are diversions.

 

[mark_a]

Confession is a Christian ritual with a communal character. Confession in the church differs from confession in your living room or your car in the same way that getting married in church differs from simply living together. The communal aspect of the event tends to safeguard it and solidify it and call everybody involved to account. The person hearing the confession represents the community. That person is in a position to provide guidance and wisdom that can help each penitent overcome attitudes and habits that take us off course and which damage both ourselves and the community. Confession in the presence of another human being is dismaying to the proud (which means it dismays everybody) but I respectfully submit that it’s good for us.

Well put.

 

[a_cermak]

Moral theology. Namely divorce, contraception, abortion, end of life issues, etc. The others are diversions.

Why on earth would you think that? The big splits (except the Anglican split and even that had a lot more to do with politics than divorce) all happened back in a day when all the faiths agreed on that stuff.

Certainly the Orthodox don’t endorse a different moral theology, and the Amish don’t. Yet they remain divided.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

J. The profanation that the Catholic church forgives sins.

I wouldn’t seek unity with Catholics any more than I would with Jehovah Witnesses or Muslims. My Jesus is not your Jesus.
Nuff said.

you have to ask yourself … with language like you’re using here:

self, do I need an attitude adjustment? I guess most people just need an enemy to sooth what ills them

 

[josie_L]

J. The profanation that the Catholic church forgives sins.

I wouldn’t seek unity with Catholics any more than I would with Jehovah Witnesses or Muslims. My Jesus is not your Jesus.
Nuff said.

You’re right always grateful, my Jesus is not the same as your version of Jesus . . .

P.S. What purpose do you have here then? Have you come to save us poor Catholics from ourselves?

 

[Peter_J]

I wouldn’t seek unity with Catholics any more than I would with Jehovah Witnesses or Muslims. My Jesus is not your Jesus.
Nuff said.

I agree with you, SST, that his/her attitude is disappointing. However, I don’t agree with “So if you’re not seeking any kind of unity with Catholics … why do you stay on this forum?” – after all, “Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims” are welcome to participate on this forum, right?

Besides, always_gr8ful isn’t the only one who considers Protestantism and Catholicism to be two different religions: there are actually a number of Catholics on this forum who believe that too!

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5183668:

Confession is a Christian ritual with a communal character. Confession in the church differs from confession in your living room or your car in the same way that getting married in church differs from simply living together. The communal aspect of the event tends to safeguard it and solidify it and call everybody involved to account. The person hearing the confession represents the community. That person is in a position to provide guidance and wisdom that can help each penitent overcome attitudes and habits that take us off course and which damage both ourselves and the community. Confession in the presence of another human being is dismaying to the proud (which means it dismays everybody) but I respectfully submit that it’s good for us.

Well put.

I can’t take any credit for what Orthodoxy has always taught and which I’m merely repeating but I’d like to add this. I daresay all serious Catholics can nod in agreement:

The fact that confession is witnessed forces me to put into words all those ways, minor and major, in which I live as if there were no God and no commandment to love.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[cecilia97]

Couldn’t disagree more.

I belong to the Traditional Anglican Communion, which has accepted Roman Doctrine, and recognized the ministry of Peter.

Waiting and waiting for Rome to accept us in Corporate Communion so we can retain our Anglican Liturgy and discipline, yet be in unity with the RC church.

If the RC church REALLY wants unity, here is a great chance.

After a while, you have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

walsingham-church.org/otherparishes.htm

100% Anglican liturgy, world-class music, fully Catholic.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5183668:

I wouldn’t seek unity with Catholics any more than I would with Jehovah Witnesses or Muslims. My Jesus is not your Jesus.
Nuff said.

So if you’re not seeking any kind of unity with Catholics and think the Catholic Church is involved in profanation why do you stay on this forum? Your attitude is disappointing.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:I agree with you, SST, that his/her attitude is disappointing. However, I don’t agree with “So if you’re not seeking any kind of unity with Catholics … why do you stay on this forum?” – after all, “Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims” are welcome to participate on this forum, right?

My question was prompted by the public preference for disunity. I’m not questioning anybody’s right to participate in this forum. I’m simply trying to gain an appreciation of this poster’s motivation.

Besides, always_gr8ful isn’t the only one who considers Protestantism and Catholicism to be two different religions: there are actually a number of Catholics on this forum who believe that too!

I daresay you’re right. Here’s an Orthodox insight, taken from the introduction to The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware, which provides an interesting contrast.

In the west it is usual to think of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism as opposite extremes; but to an Orthodox they appear as two sides of the same coin.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Confession is a Christian ritual with a communal character. Confession in the church differs from confession in your living room or your car in the same way that getting married in church differs from simply living together. The communal aspect of the event tends to safeguard it and solidify it and call everybody involved to account. The person hearing the confession represents the community. That person is in a position to provide guidance and wisdom that can help each penitent overcome attitudes and habits that take us off course and which damage both ourselves and the community. Confession in the presence of another human being is dismaying to the proud (which means it dismays everybody) but I respectfully submit that it’s good for us.

I think it’s probably more accurate to say the Catholic concept of confession “replaced” the intended communal aspect of confession, rather than enforcing it (since, just to state the obvious, sitting alone in a confessional with a priest is hardly anything resembling communal).

Obviously it’s more humbling to confess your sins to a friend, or a group of friends than it is to confess before a priest whom you know heard much worse then what you have to say & will never breech your confidence. If there is any humbling aspect to confession it’s dealing with the shame of sin (since being ashamed is the opposite of being proud right). What sounds more shaming from a logical standpoint? Admitting your sins to your friends and the community at large … or to a priest?

Moreover, what mode of confession is more utilitarian? Your friends, family members, and neighbors are the folks who see and interact with you everyday. Who better to help you stay clear of sin than those folks (“the community”)? Certainly not a priest whom you likely only see once a week at mass right?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Sadly we seem to have a very narrow view of the new commandment Jesus gave us…

Love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples.

 

[RonaldH]

Truth

 

[JonNC]

Why the gratuitous insult? Presumably you feel the same way about Holy Orthodoxy?

It seems to me that there are two ways in which we can confess our sins. The first option is to confess our sins directly to God. I guess that’s the response you would give if somebody asked you? It’s certainly the response I gave when I was an Evangelical:

Question: How exactly is that done? Well, since we’re talking about human beings, I think it’s fair to say that it’s almost always done without embarrassment on the part of the penitent. He or she is alone when the confessing is done so no other human being knows the details.

Let me adduce this notion apropos the second option.

Confession is a Christian ritual with a communal character. Confession in the church differs from confession in your living room or your car in the same way that getting married in church differs from simply living together. The communal aspect of the event tends to safeguard it and solidify it and call everybody involved to account. The person hearing the confession represents the community. That person is in a position to provide guidance and wisdom that can help each penitent overcome attitudes and habits that take us off course and which damage both ourselves and the community. Confession in the presence of another human being is dismaying to the proud (which means it dismays everybody) but I respectfully submit that it’s good for us.

So if you’re not seeking any kind of unity with Catholics and think the Catholic Church is involved in profanation why do you stay on this forum? Your attitude is disappointing.

Sadly,
Mick
:sad_bye:

Good post, Mick.
Jon

 

[SSTeacher]

I think it’s probably more accurate to say the Catholic concept of confession “replaced” the intended communal aspect of confession, rather than enforcing it (since, just to state the obvious, sitting alone in a confessional with a priest is hardly anything resembling communal).

That’s a fair point. But I’m suggesting that confession is a private event in a public context. The idea that people should go blabbing their sins all around the town to every Tom, Dick and Harry in the interests of informing the community at large isn’t at all what I had in mind meant. I’m sorry if that’s what I seemed to proposing.

Obviously it’s more humbling to confess your sins to a friend, or a group of friends than it is to confess before a priest whom you know heard much worse then what you have to say & will never breech your confidence.

I don’t think it’s a case of deciding which might or might not be more humbling. I would posit that confessing to just one person – even a priest who has heard it all before unless he’s just out of seminary – is humbling enough. I’m also taking into account that in order for healing to take place, examination of conscience together with confession on a regular basis is called for

If there is any humbling aspect to confession it’s dealing with the shame of sin (since being ashamed is the opposite of being proud right).

Right. And it seems to me that if one chooses to “do–it–by–yourself” then any feelings of shame will be largely manufactured.

What sounds more shaming from a logical standpoint? Admitting your sins to your friends and the community at large … or to a priest?

Well, with respect, “degrees of shame” like “degrees of humility” seem to me to be largely beside the point.

Moreover, what mode of confession is more utilitarian? Your friends, family members, and neighbors are the folks who see and interact with you everyday. Who better to help you stay clear of sin than those folks (“the community”)?

Interesting idea but I doubt that it’s a practical proposition. Finding people who would be prepared to take on that responsibility is the problem. Moreover, even you can find somebody who is willing, that person wouldn’t necessarily have the aptitude for the task.

Certainly not a priest whom you likely only see once a week at mass right?

Perhaps. It’s arguable, though.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful submission.

Appreciatively,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Sadly we seem to have a very narrow view of the new commandment Jesus gave us…

Love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciples.

Hi Eric,

Are you able to suggest a less narrow or even a wide view and perhaps describe what the effect of its application throughout Christendom might be?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Truth

Hi Ronald,

Would you care to enlarge?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Good post, Mick.
Jon

God bless you, Jon.

Fraternally,
Mick

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello Mick

Are you able to suggest a less narrow or even a wide view and perhaps describe what the effect of its application throughout Christendom might be?

Maybe it is how we look at the greatest commandments, all the law and the prophets of God hang on these commandments.

How can we love people who are different to us, as we love ourselves?

 

[SSTeacher]

Hello Mick

Maybe it is how we look at the greatest commandments, all the law and the prophets of God hang on these commandments.

How can we love people who are different to us, as we love ourselves?

Eric,

I think you’re on the right track. I encourage you to continue. Go ahead and expand your thought.

Cordially,
Mick