What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[Vaeavilla]

As a catholic from downunder in the Oceania, I presumed that the biggest obstacle is in the watered down notion of dubbing Christianity as a religion but not as “The Church” We in the Islands have a lot of our own cultural, natural religions but we have left all of them when Christianity was brought to our shores as the “CHurch” , The KIngdom of Jesus Christ that came down from Heaven. All religion is man originated searching for the sacred but Christianity is totally different, It is God HImself that comes searching for the fallen race of ours. So all the non Catholic Christians will always find it hard to come to the truth because they are treating Christianity as a religion. Once they with humbleness as St Paul have experienced in his life the Mystical Union of the Body of Christ-The Church, then unity can be accompliced with His grace, never with the mere human logic… Cheerion Te Vaka from Oceania.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

That’s a fair point. But I’m suggesting that confession is a private event in a public context. The idea that people should go blabbing their sins all around the town to every Tom, Dick and Harry in the interests of informing the community at large isn’t at all what I had in mind meant. I’m sorry if that’s what I seemed to proposing.

I don’t think it’s a case of deciding which might or might not be more humbling. I would posit that confessing to just one person – even a priest who has heard it all before unless he’s just out of seminary – is humbling enough. I’m also taking into account that in order for healing to take place, examination of conscience together with confession on a regular basis is called for

Right. And it seems to me that if one chooses to “do–it–by–yourself” then any feelings of shame will be largely manufactured.

Well, with respect, “degrees of shame” like “degrees of humility” seem to me to be largely beside the point.

Interesting idea but I doubt that it’s a practical proposition. Finding people who would be prepared to take on that responsibility is the problem. Moreover, even you can find somebody who is willing, that person wouldn’t necessarily have the aptitude for the task.

Perhaps. It’s arguable, though.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful submission.

Appreciatively,
Mick

Mick:

Thanks & I guess the value of confession to a priest versus a more loosely organized method is arguable. I suppose there’s value in both; and of course the CC certainly doesn’t prohibit confession to friends or family (or whomever). Scripture only discusses confession to fellow Christians or directly to god through Christ. In that vein I don’t think it can be fairly said that any mainstream Christian denomination does it wrong.

 

[SSTeacher]

As a catholic from downunder in the Oceania, I presumed that the biggest obstacle is in the watered down notion of dubbing Christianity as a religion but not as “The Church” We in the Islands have a lot of our own cultural, natural religions but we have left all of them when Christianity was brought to our shores as the “CHurch” , The KIngdom of Jesus Christ that came down from Heaven. All religion is man originated searching for the sacred but Christianity is totally different, It is God HImself that comes searching for the fallen race of ours. *** So all the non Catholic Christians will always find it hard to come to the truth because they are treating Christianity as a religion***. Once they with humbleness as St Paul have experienced in his life the Mystical Union of the Body of Christ-The Church, then unity can be accompliced with His grace, never with the mere human logic… Cheerion Te Vaka from Oceania.

I respectfully disagree with the assertion I’ve highlighted because it doesn’t apply to the American Evangelicals I encountered during my years within their ranks. My experience was that Evangelicals would get somewhat irritated whenever they heard Christianity being described a religion. In the Evangelical view, Christianity is definitely not a religion but a relationship.

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I respectfully disagree with the assertion I’ve highlighted because it doesn’t apply to the American Evangelicals I encountered during my years within their ranks. My experience was that Evangelicals would get somewhat irritated whenever they heard Christianity being described a religion. In the Evangelical view, Christianity is definitely not a religion but a relationship.

Helpfully,
Mick

I agree with you (I’ve had many friends throughout life who were evangelical, mostly great folks). I will say from a theological standpoint they might overly focus on the personal relationship aspect, while scripture seems to frame the relationship as being part of a body. In other words the quality of the relationship between the Christian and god directly correlates to their relationships with other people.

However, in practice many evangelicals do walk the walk … meaning they do place a high value on fellowship with other Christians (perhaps more than most other denominational Christians).

 

[SSTeacher]

Mick:

Thanks & I guess the value of confession to a priest versus a more loosely organized method is arguable. I suppose there’s value in both; and of course the CC certainly doesn’t prohibit confession to friends or family (or whomever). Scripture only discusses confession to fellow Christians or directly to god through Christ. In that vein I don’t think it can be fairly said that any mainstream Christian denomination does it wrong.

humble,

Well said and I agree. When I first entered American Evangelical ranks, I was introduced to the idea of “Accountability Partners.” It seemed to me to be quite a good idea. Each member of the church I’d joined (it was a reasonably sized church with an average Sunday attendance of 800–900) was encouraged to find a suitable partner (same age and same gender was recommended) and meet regularly in order to pray together and to help each other with the daily struggle every Christian has with the world, the Devil and the flesh.

I guess it would have worked for me had I been able to find a suitable partner. But I failed to do so. Most of the Evangelicals I met were content to sit in Sunday school and admit they were sinners in the communal sense but they didn’t really take it that seriously – Oh yes, Romans 3:23 applies to all of us, errr, what time’s lunch? – but when it came to letting down their guard and actually revealing to another human being the sordid details of their failures, it appeared that they weren’t necessarily made of sterner stuff. So I managed alone for a time. However, at this point, auricular confession appears to be the right option for me. But, as you rightly point out, Scripture doesn’t necessarily endorse it so Biblical Christianity shies away from it on those grounds. I daresay there are Evangelicals who have and still are making spiritual progress – I’d like to think so, at any rate. However, I didn’t manage it so I’ve finally turned to face East after a fair amount of struggling with what is involved.

Sincerely,
Mick

 

[mark_a]

Why on earth would you think that? The big splits (except the Anglican split and even that had a lot more to do with politics than divorce) all happened back in a day when all the faiths agreed on that stuff.

Just as you said, these splits were more political in nature that faith theological. But most of Protestantism has veered way left on at least one of the issues I listed and there ain’t no turning back for these churches a whole.

Certainly the Orthodox don’t endorse a different moral theology,

I guess you weren’t around back in the days of the “Eastern Christianity” forum. There were some real knockdown-dragouts between Orthodox and Catholics over divorce and especially contraception.

and the Amish don’t. Yet they remain divided.

I have much respect for the Amish. I did not intend to imply that every single non-Catholic Christian had moral theological differences with the CC.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

humble,

Well said and I agree. When I first entered American Evangelical ranks, I was introduced to the idea of “Accountability Partners.” It seemed to me to be quite a good idea. Each member of the church I’d joined (it was a reasonably sized church with an average Sunday attendance of 800–900) was encouraged to find a suitable partner (same age and same gender was recommended) and meet regularly in order to pray together and to help each other with the daily struggle every Christian has with the world, the Devil and the flesh.

I guess it would have worked for me had I been able to find a suitable partner. But I failed to do so. Most of the Evangelicals I met were content to sit in Sunday school and admit they were sinners in the communal sense but they didn’t really take it that seriously – Oh yes, Romans 3:23 applies to all of us, errr, what time’s lunch? – but when it came to letting down their guard and actually revealing to another human being the sordid details of their failures, it appeared that they weren’t necessarily made of sterner stuff. So I managed alone for a time. However, at this point, auricular confession appears to be the right option for me. But, as you rightly point out, Scripture doesn’t necessarily endorse it so Biblical Christianity shies away from it on those grounds. I daresay there are Evangelicals who have and still are making spiritual progress – I’d like to think so, at any rate. However, I didn’t manage it so I’ve finally turned to face East after a fair amount of struggling with what is involved.

Sincerely,
Mick

Cool … Eastern Orthodoxy is a great tradition & of course Catholic liturgy is very soothing (sort of like classical music ). I guess I would toss in Lutheran & Episcopalian liturgy (especially episcopalian, which as the maxim goes is catholic light … but their services are almost indistinguishable from the catholic mass).

When I was Christian I wound up coming to the conclusion that bits of truth are sprinkled throughout Christianity, but no single denomination has a monopoly on it (though of course they all claim to).

 

[SSTeacher]

I agree with you (I’ve had many friends throughout life who were evangelical, mostly great folks). I will say from a theological standpoint they might overly focus on the personal relationship aspect, while scripture seems to frame the relationship as being part of a body. In other words the quality of the relationship between the Christian and god directly correlates to their relationships with other people. However, in practice many evangelicals do walk the walk … meaning they do place a high value on fellowship with other Christians (perhaps more than most other denominational Christians).

I also have friends that are Evangelicals – one of my very good friends is a five–point Calvinist who takes his Christianity very seriously indeed. I’ve learned a lot from him and have a great deal of respect for him. We have different worldviews but it hasn’t interfered with our friendship, I’m glad to say.

I think one of the difficulties with the Evangelical mindset is that while fellowship with other Evangelicals is seen as a good and positive thing, those who are “not like us” are seen as dangerous and therefore a threat. Unfortunately, this tends to encourage a condemnatory stance. For Evangelicals, perhaps the hardest part about following Christ is to meet people at their point of need. Faced with a gay pacifist New Ager that has a penchant for rap music, I guess most would simply shut down. D’ya think?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[mark_a]

When I was Christian I wound up coming to the conclusion that bits of truth are sprinkled throughout Christianity, but no single denomination has a monopoly on it (though of course they all claim to).

Wrong! Pope Benedict XVI has expicitly said that the Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on truth just as Protestant cjurches do not have a monopoly on reform.

 

[SSTeacher]

Cool … Eastern Orthodoxy is a great tradition & of course Catholic liturgy is very soothing (sort of like classical music ). I guess I would toss in Lutheran & Episcopalian liturgy (especially episcopalian, which as the maxim goes is catholic light … but their services are almost indistinguishable from the catholic mass).

It is the way that Orthodox Christians worship that drew me more than anything else. Have you ever experienced the Divine Liturgy, by the way?

When I was Christian I wound up coming to the conclusion that bits of truth are sprinkled throughout Christianity, but no single denomination has a monopoly on it (though of course they all claim to).

Well, the Holy Spirit goes wherever He pleases so one would expect to find truth and goodness throughout Christianity.

Ecumenically,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

humble_in_doubt;5185559:

When I was Christian I wound up coming to the conclusion that bits of truth are sprinkled throughout Christianity, but no single denomination has a monopoly on it (though of course they all claim to).

Wrong! Pope Benedict XVI has expicitly said that the Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on truth just as Protestant cjurches do not have a monopoly on reform.

How can he be wrong for coming to his own conclusion? Perhaps he came to his conclusion prior to the present pope’s ascension? Perhaps, in the case of the Catholic Church, he had in mind the numerous anathemas of the Council of Trent and the Syllabus of Errors and the like? D’ya think?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[mark_a]

How can he be wrong for coming to his own conclusion? Perhaps he came to his conclusion prior to the present pope’s ascension? Perhaps, in the case of the Catholic Church, he had in mind the numerous anathemas of the Council of Trent and the Syllabus of Errors and the like? D’ya think?

Respectfully,
Mick

It’s the

(though of course they all claim to).

part of his quote I was referring to.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5185702:

How can he be wrong for coming to his own conclusion? Perhaps he came to his conclusion prior to the present pope’s ascension? Perhaps, in the case of the Catholic Church, he had in mind the numerous anathemas of the Council of Trent and the Syllabus of Errors and the like? D’ya think?

Respectfully,
Mick

It’s the

(though of course they all claim to).

part of his quote I was referring to.

So if he’d declared, “though of course they all claim to have the fullness of truth” would you have refrained from telling him that he was wrong?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Wrong! Pope Benedict XVI has expicitly said that the Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on truth just as Protestant cjurches do not have a monopoly on reform.

Hey … how was I wrong? That’s almost exactly what I just said

Geesh (you’re pulling my leg right?)

just to remind you here’s my words (the relevant parts):

I wound up coming to the conclusion that bits of truth are sprinkled throughout Christianity, but no single denomination has a monopoly on it

 

[mark_a]

Hey … how was I wrong? That’s almost exactly what I just said

Geesh (you’re pulling my leg right?)

just to remind you here’s my words (the relevant parts):

I guess this part

(though of course they all claim to)

was irrelevant.

 

[mark_a]

So if he’d declared, “though of course they all claim to have the fullness of truth” would you have refrained from telling him that he was wrong?

Curiously,
Mick

Yes. I don’t think I would have caught it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

so, what do you suggest we should do? ask protestants what doctrines we should drop and which we should keep? should we ask the OE what doctrines we should have? what is your solution for the problem?

and how would you define unity today? when the Word of God has been desecrated in the hands of men, who believes that each person can enterpret the Word for himself?

whose enterpretation would prevail?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I guess this part was irrelevant.

it’s not wrong is it? What church out there that you know of doesn’t claim to have the fulness of truth (or however you want to phrase it)?

They all do … so again nothing I said was inaccurate!

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

I would have to pick option J. In my experiences and interactions with non-Catholic Christians, particularly those of evangelical churches, the biggest obstacles are:
A. Disagreement about whether or not Catholics are Christian. Sad, but true. I’ve encountered this is in real life, and every time, it still shocks me a little.

B. Misunderstanding Catholic doctrine. Sometimes egregiously. I don’t think we can begin to resolve the disagreements the OP listed until we can eliminate the strawmen arguments. It’s quite frustrating to try to explain Catholic doctrine to someone who’s been taught distortions of the Catholic faith. Sometimes I think that there needs to be a ministry educating non-Catholic pastors about Catholicism, so that all the information that pastors give their flock is accurate.

I hope to see an end to all divisions someday.

Love is Patient

 

[wisdomseeker]

it’s not wrong is it? What church out there that you know of doesn’t claim to have the fulness of truth (or however you want to phrase it)?

They all do … so again nothing I said was inaccurate!

i agree with you. everyone claims to have the Truth. everyone claims to have the True church. i agree with you on this. which presents a challenge for many to know who is telling the truth.