What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[jmcrae]

it’s not wrong is it? What church out there that you know of doesn’t claim to have the fulness of truth (or however you want to phrase it)?

Actually, the Catholic Church is the only one I know of that makes this claim.

Other churches claim that there is no such thing as the fullness of truth, and that one must make one’s best guess, based on one’s personal understanding of the Scriptures, and hope that the Holy Spirit is guiding you in the way that you should go.

 

[mark_a]

it’s not wrong is it? What church out there that you know of doesn’t claim to have the fulness of truth (or however you want to phrase it)?

They all do … so again nothing I said was inaccurate!

Monopoly and fullness are two different things.

Your statement rang a bell with me about Pope Benedict’s statement.

I can see that I took your statement in a way that wasn’t intended, so I’ll lay off now.

 

[pickguard1]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

I would say those items are not the obstacles to unity, but a result of the ONE obstacle, and that is man’s proclivity to let his vision be obscured by the workings of the devil.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I would say those items are not the obstacles to unity, but a result of the ONE obstacle, and that is man’s proclivity to let his vision be obscured by the workings of the devil.

yes. but that is what they say about Catholics also. what i would like to find out is who has the solution to unity. who is saying is going to prevail.

 

[pickguard1]

yes. but that is what they say about Catholics also. what i would like to find out is who has the solution to unity. who is saying is going to prevail.

Who has the solution to unity? Christ

Who is going to prevail? same answer. (expanding of course that Christ wills unity through the Church He established.)

 

[pickguard1]

Who has the solution to unity? Christ

Who is going to prevail? same answer. (expanding of course that Christ wills unity through the Church He established.)

Further expansion (sorry I posted too quickly)

The prayer of the Church offered daily throughout the world (the Mass) will be triumphant in bringing about the reunification of all our Christian brothers and sisters who have left the fold. When this will occur is up to God. We just have to keep doing our part. “Thy will be done…”

edit again sorry:blush:

I mean all our Chistian brothers and sisters who choose of their own free will to be reunited.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Who has the solution to unity? Christ

Who is going to prevail? same answer. (expanding of course that Christ wills unity through the Church He established.)

i understand. but the question remains.
i see the time of the Apostles, everyone had to submit themselves to the teachings of the Apostles. today we have something else. no one wants to submit.

 

[pickguard1]

i understand. but the question remains.
i see the time of the Apostles, everyone had to submit themselves to the teachings of the Apostles. today we have something else. no one wants to submit.

That has always been the problem, hasn’t it? That’s how Satan fell. That’s how sin entered into the world. Essentially every sin is an act of disobedience to the Will of God. Refusing to submit to the Church that He established on earth is just more of the same (as crazy as I think poeple who do this are, since it’s essentialy suicide for the soul - they aren’t unique in terms of history)

 

[Peter_J]

it’s not wrong is it? What church out there that you know of doesn’t claim to have the fulness of truth (or however you want to phrase it)?

I’m really surprised at you, jmcrae. I thought you knew a little about the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m really surprised at you, jmcrae. I thought you knew a little about the Eastern Orthodox.

Do the Eastern Orthodox claim to have the fulness of truth? I thought their claim was that reason is man’s invention, and that we are not to use our reason to discover God, but only our faith and emotions.

 

[wisdomseeker]

That has always been the problem, hasn’t it? That’s how Satan fell. That’s how sin entered into the world. Essentially every sin is an act of disobedience to the Will of God. Refusing to submit to the Church that He established on earth is just more of the same (as crazy as I think poeple who do this are, since it’s essentialy suicide for the soul - they aren’t unique in terms of history)

the question still remains. the unity. how is unity possible?

Jesus was recognized only by those who accepts His teachings. those who didnt, reject Him and never recognized him. tell how is unity possible ?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Mick:

Thanks & I guess the value of confession to a priest versus a more loosely organized method is arguable. I suppose there’s value in both; and of course the CC certainly doesn’t prohibit confession to friends or family (or whomever). Scripture only discusses confession to fellow Christians or directly to god through Christ. In that vein I don’t think it can be fairly said that any mainstream Christian denomination does it wrong.

not true. our Lord said. "whosoever sins you forgive will be forgive, whosoever sins you retain will be retained. this is an authority given to the Church. take this away from the Church, and you are taking away the authority of our Lord Himself.

 

[pickguard1]

the question still remains. the unity. how is unity possible?

Jesus was recognized only by those who accepts His teachings. those who didnt, reject Him and never recognized him. tell how is it possible unity?

Unity is possible through conforming one’s will to God’s. Since it is His Will that all should come to Him through His Son, Jesus Christ - who gave us His Church to provide us with the graces necessary for that salvation - unity IS achieved every time someone repents of his/her sins in the sacrament of confession and re-conform’s his/her will to God’s.

I think you are looking for some sort of blanket action by humans that will miraculously bring about the end of all protestant/schismatical sects of Christianity. The fact is, no human action can do this. The disunity we see now is not because all these denominations exist in and of themselves, it is because these denominations are made up of individuals who, of their own free will, choose to be separated from Christ’s Church. Unity can’t be forced on them. We should always pray for their return, continue to teach and preach the truth, and practice charity in all things.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Unity is possible through conforming one’s will to God’s. Since it is His Will that all should come to Him through His Son, Jesus Christ - who gave us His Church to provide us with the graces necessary for that salvation - unity IS achieved every time someone repents of his/her sins in the sacrament of confession and re-conform’s his/her will to God’s.

I think you are looking for some sort of blanket action by humans that will miraculously bring about the end of all protestant/schismatical sects of Christianity. The fact is, no human action can do this. The disunity we see now is not because all these denominations exist in and of themselves, it is because these denominations are made up of individuals who, of their own free will, choose to be separated from Christ’s Church. Unity can’t be forced on them. We should always pray for their return, continue to teach and preach the truth, and practice charity in all things.

but is it not the actions of humans being that brought separation? so it should take actions of human beings of free will to recognize where the Truth lies. is it not?

 

[jmcrae]

but is it not the actions of humans being that brought separation? so it should take actions of human beings of free will to recognize where the Truth lies. is it not?

It’s far easier to break something, than it is to put it back together. If a child breaks a lamp, he needs an adult to help him glue the pieces back together, and in the same way, I think we need God’s help to bring the Church back into unity.

 

[pickguard1]

but is it not the actions of humans being that brought separation? so it should take actions of human beings of free will to recognize where the Truth lies. is it not?

True, but it wasn’t a single event that brought about any schism or disunity, it was individuals who made these decisions. So, as you say, it is the individual actions of humans, exercising their free will to choose the Truth and God in ALL things that will bring about their unity. I was under the impression you were seeking a one size fits all answer to the problem of our fallen away brethren. sorry! I was just saying I don’t think one exists.

All WE can do as Catholics is make that truth available to them so that if and when they want to accept it, it is there. Remember we do not seek unity with them for appearances sake, rather we seek for them to be united to us out of love of Christ.

 

[Daedelus76]

It seems to me there are only two big issues: ecclessiology and Calvin/Zwingli’s anti-ritualism crusade they started. The rest is very trivial.

The Orthodox and Protestants both rejected Roman Catholic ecclessiology, to various degrees. Within the West, the division is more accentuated by Calvinism and the other radical reformers, and the pervasive influence it has had on Protestantism at a popular level, especially in the US, but increasingly in the Third World.

Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists actually, at least officially… don’t disagree in doctrines all that much from Roman Catholics. I think the final two Marian dogmas, though, would be harder for many Protestants to accept. The dogma of Mary as Mediatrix or Co-Reedemer would be a poison pill for sure to ecumenical relations. Even with the Orthodox, who have their own Marian spirituality, it’s just not as dogmatic as in Catholicism.

 

[wisdomseeker]

It’s far easier to break something, than it is to put it back together. If a child breaks a lamp, he needs an adult to help him glue the pieces back together, and in the same way, I think we need God’s help to bring the Church back into unity.

agreed. we all need God’s help in everything.

i would thing that the OE and the CC should be the ones to come together first. this would be an example for others.

 

[wisdomseeker]

True, but it wasn’t a single event that brought about any schism or disunity, it was individuals who made these decisions. So, as you say, it is the individual actions of humans, exercising their free will to choose the Truth and God in ALL things that will bring about their unity. I was under the impression you were seeking a one size fits all answer to the problem of our fallen away brethren. sorry! I was just saying I don’t think one exists.

All WE can do as Catholics is make that truth available to them so that if and when they want to accept it, it is there. Remember we do not seek unity with them for appearances sake, rather we seek for them to be united to us out of love of Christ.

i do understand. the CC has been available to all always. that is not the problem. the problem is as long man holds the Bible and are convinced that they can enterpret with understanding, there will always be people who will come against the CC.

the big issue for disunity is enterpretation of Sacred Scripture, is it not?

 

[pickguard1]

i do understand. the CC has been available to all always. that is not the problem. the problem is as long man holds the Bible and are convinced that they can enterpret with understanding, there will always be people who will come against the CC.

the big issue for disunity is enterpretation of Sacred Scripture, is it not?

Man’s pride in believing we all have the ability to discern the correct interpretation of Sacred Scripture is definitely one of the major problems impeding unity. The issue really seems so absurd to me, though, since the Church existed for quite a while, WITHOUT any scripture. (I’m not sure when the first book of the New Testament was written, but I’m pretty sure it was not immediately upon the Ascension of Our Lord!) Further more, the collection of all the apostolic writings into one New Testament didn’t happen for probably a couple centuries. Even further, the vast majority of people in the Christian world didn’t nor could they have ever had access to a Bible as we know it until the 15th century! (Invention of the printing press) Who determined what should be in the Bible in the first place? The Church! Why did St. Paul, St. James, St. Peter, St. Jude, et al. feel the need to write letters to various people? Because the CHURCH was already there! So I never understand the *Sola Scriptura *argument, because it consigns to oblivion the very foundation of the Church. How can one claim to be a follower of Christ’s church and discount the centuries that the faithful believed and followed Christ WITHOUT a bible? Do *Sola Scriptura *protestants belive that Christ established His Church and then let it wallow in darkness for another 1400 years? I hope not!

The real problem is one of pride. It would probably be easy enough to get a Protestant to admit the truths of history (regardless of “religious history”), but they would then have to accept that their misinterpretations are wrong - and let’s face it, it’s hard to say “I need to change myself” and easy to say “Your’re the ones who need to change.”