What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[jmcrae]

If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing.

If there is no one who is protected with the charism of infallibility, there is thus no way to distinguish between false doctrine and true doctrine.

If it is not possible to distinguish between false and true doctrine, it is not possible to fault teachers of false doctrine with any sin, since they are only doing the best they can with the imperfect and fallible materials that are available to them - with no standard of authenticity for them to look towards, they can only make their best guess, and teach as best they can.

However, as it turns out, Jesus did not leave us lost in the wilderness without a shepherd.
John21:15-19:

Jesus Reinstates Peter

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
** Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”**

16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
** Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”**

17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

**Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.** 18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him,** "Follow me!"**

 

[Primox]

For my circle of protestant friends it was intercession, Mary, the Papacy, but most of all, the Holy Eucharist.

The only thing keeping me from Catholicism is the Papacy, to be honest.

If there is no one who is protected with the charism of infallibility, there is thus no way to distinguish between false doctrine and true doctrine

Gifts of the Spirit.

 

[jmcrae]

Gifts of the Spirit.

Which absolutely anyone can claim to have; how can you know that you have them, in order to discern which of the many contradictory leaders you should follow? After all, sometimes, the voices in your head are only your own thoughts.

(Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?)

 

[ferdie]

For my circle of protestant friends it was intercession, Mary, the Papacy, but most of all, the Holy Eucharist.

The only thing keeping me from Catholicism is the Papacy, to be honest.

Gifts of the Spirit.

Anyone can claim this as we often see in some of the threads here, specially if you go outside the catholic answers forum where almost all fundamentalist and evangelicals proclaims that they have the guidance and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
If any one can claim it and we see that they are not united in doctrines, how can we then distinguish the truth from these different denominations?

 

[Primox]

Which absolutely anyone can claim to have; how can you know that you have them, in order to discern which of the many contradictory leaders you should follow? After all, sometimes, the voices in your head are only your own thoughts.

(Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?)

Is that how you understand God? Voices in your own head?
I Trust the Spirit far greater than any man - Pope or not.
As you can see beneath, Gifts of the Spirit are given to Christians. Are you a Christian? Bam, gifts of the Spirit.

Mark 16-16-18

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1 Cor. 12:11-13

11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

 

[Primox]

Anyone can claim this as we often see in some of the threads here, specially if you go outside the catholic answers forum where almost all fundamentalist and evangelicals proclaims that they have the guidance and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
If any one can claim it and we see that they are not united in doctrines, how can we then distinguish the truth from these different denominations?

It’s interesting that it doesn’t any more make a case [for] the Papacy to discredit guidance by the Holy Spirit.

 

[jmcrae]

Is that how you understand God? Voices in your own head?

If you do not listen to any human being, and also not to your own heart, then what do you listen to? (The Bible was written by human beings; reading the Bible is the same thing as listening to human beings.)

I Trust the Spirit far greater than any man - Pope or not.
As you can see beneath, Gifts of the Spirit are given to Christians. Are you a Christian? Bam, gifts of the Spirit.

Not every gift is given to every person - if we are not in the Church, then we only have access to our own gifts; not to those of the rest of the Church, which is the Body of Christ. One person by himself is not the Body; only the Church is the Body.

If the hand amputates itself from the Body because it doesn’t like the head making all of its decisions for it, it dies - and the Body becomes crippled.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s interesting that it doesn’t any more make a case [for] the Papacy to discredit guidance by the Holy Spirit.

Some are guided by the “Holy Spirit” to deny the Trinity. Some are guided by the “Holy Spirit” to deny their children medical help when they are extremely ill. Some are guided by the “Holy Spirit” to drink poison or else blow themselves up. Some are guided by the “Holy Spirit” to deny the divinity of Christ and the inspiration of the Scriptures (which were written by men who had the same charism of infallibility as the Pope - but if that charism does not actually exist, then the Bible is just another ordinary book). Some are guided by the “Holy Spirit” to practice birth control and abortion.

The real question to ask is, to whom did Jesus promise the Holy Spirit, and where are their successors, today? The Pope is the direct successor of St. Peter, and we know that St. Peter was appointed to be the shepherd of the Church by Jesus Himself. (John 21:15-19)

The Holy Spirit certainly guides us, but not into every wind of doctrine or trend of society - we are all supposed to be on the same path, moving in the same direction. Chaos is not from the Spirit.

 

[Disciple96]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

I think all of these questions can be boiled down to one question and that is the question of authority. Christ founded His Church as the visible earthly part of His Kingdom and set His ministers over it, with His Prime Minister in charge of it, to be guided by the Holy Spirit throughout all time. The problems non-Catholic Christians have with all of the doctrines you listed above really do generally come down to the one problem: the unwillingness to accept the validity of the teachings because of unwillingness to accept the authority behind them.

Non-Catholic Christians generally think that authority is Catholic authority. But it is actually Christ Himself and His authority, from which the Church’s authority derives. He’s the one who founded the Church and gave His apostles His teaching and His command: to go into the world, preaching the Gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, making disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all He taught them.

I rejected the Church’s authority and teachings for a long time. Until I studied them and realized the truth of her claim. Once I realized that, I knew I had to seek further instruction and be received into communion. I think it is very difficult to understand what the Church is really saying in any of these doctrines unless one is willing to listen intently with good will and also to ask oneself: what if these things are actually true? Once that possibility occurs in one’s mind, the window is opened a little to let some light in. Once that happens, more and more light can come in. And one understands more and more of the true teachings of Christ’s Church, all of which are rooted in love and in Christ her Lord.

 

[ferdie]

Is that how you understand God? Voices in your own head?
I Trust the Spirit far greater than any man - Pope or not.

The Holy Spirit is promised by our Lord Jesus Christ to guide the Church he founded in all truth. If you trust the Holy Spirit, then you must trust the Holy church he founded, the Church he commanded to preach all truth to all nations at all times.

“He who hears you hears me; and he who rejects you ejects me; and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

As you can see beneath, Gifts of the Spirit are given to Christians. Are you a Christian? Bam, gifts of the Spirit.

Mark 16-16-18

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

How many people have you seen do these things once they are baptized? It was necessary in the early times of the Apostles to confirm the authority given to them by our Lord.

 

[ferdie]

Is that how you understand God? Voices in your own head?
I Trust the Spirit far greater than any man - Pope or not.

How does the Holy Spirit communicate with you? How do you know what the Holy Spirit is telling you?

 

[SSTeacher]

If there is no one who is protected with the charism of infallibility, there is thus no way to distinguish between false doctrine and true doctrine.

If it is not possible to distinguish between false and true doctrine, it is not possible to fault teachers of false doctrine with any sin, since they are only doing the best they can with the imperfect and fallible materials that are available to them - with no standard of authenticity for them to look towards, they can only make their best guess, and teach as best they can.

An Orthodox Christian who believes it is the Orthodox Church that the Lord has protected from error down through the centuries could also validly make this argument.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[ferdie]

I think all of these questions can be boiled down to one question and that is the question of authority. Christ founded His Church as the visible earthly part of His Kingdom and set His ministers over it, with His Prime Minister in charge of it, to be guided by the Holy Spirit throughout all time. The problems non-Catholic Christians have with all of the doctrines you listed above really do generally come down to the one problem: the unwillingness to accept the validity of the teachings because of unwillingness to accept the authority behind them.

Non-Catholic Christians generally think that authority is Catholic authority. But it is actually Christ Himself and His authority, from which the Church’s authority derives. He’s the one who founded the Church and gave His apostles His teaching and His command: to go into the world, preaching the Gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, making disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all He taught them.

I rejected the Church’s authority and teachings for a long time. Until I studied them and realized the truth of her claim. Once I realized that, I knew I had to seek further instruction and be received into communion. I think it is very difficult to understand what the Church is really saying in any of these doctrines unless one is willing to listen intently with good will and also to ask oneself: what if these things are actually true? Once that possibility occurs in one’s mind, the window is opened a little to let some light in. Once that happens, more and more light can come in. And one understands more and more of the true teachings of Christ’s Church, all of which are rooted in love and in Christ her Lord.

This is true with me also, but let me add that it is actually the Authority of God the Father that he gave to our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[SSTeacher]

When I was bouncing back and forth between born again fundamentalist churches, baptist church and the Iglesia Ni Kristo, I noticed one particular thing that was common to these churches I attended, they all have some kind of hatred against the Catholic Church, but you know what, I NEVER heard any member or leaders spoke against the Orthodox Church.

That was my experience, also. It seems that the Orthodox Church is unknown to most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. The Catholic Church is most definitely known to them.

So I put this in consideration when I was researching the Church History. I too had a problem with Infallibility when I was reading Church History, it seems arrogant for the Church to claim that.

I follow. I never saw the claim for the Church to be protected by the Lord from going astray as being arrogant and I still don’t. I’m suggesting that the difficulty for those who do not have a Catholic mindset is the notion that the pope is endowed with this gift.

It took me a while to accept it, but I was able to accept it. I reasoned this way:

1.Jesus sent His Apostles with full power to preach the gospel.

“As the Father has sent me, so I send you”.

“Make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”

Jesus taught without error and He commanded the Apostles to teach until the end of the age. The only way they can teach all truth until the end of time is if they pass the same authority they received. It was physically impossible for the Apostles to preach to the whole world, so Jesus must have intended the authority to be passed down to the successors of the Apostles to the end of time.

I agree.

The authority given to the Apostles and their successors came from Jesus whom he receive from the Father. That authority to teach all truth is guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by our Lord.

I agree.

1. Jesus Christ said, " He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he who does not believe shall be condemned."

“If he refuse to hear even to the Church, let hem be you as the heathen and the publican.”

“He who hears you hears me; and he who rejects you ejects me; and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

“And whoever does not receive you, or listen to your words- go forth outside and of the house or town, and shake off the dust from your feet. Amen I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that town”.

OK.

These are strong words for those who do not believe in the authority of people sent by Jesus. Our God is a just God who could not command men under penalty of damnation to believe what is not true. So the teaching of the Church must be infallibly true to lead men to salvation.

I agree. But I came to the conclusion that it’s the Orthodox Church and not the Catholic Church that contains the fullness of truth. So every time I encounter the word “Church,” I mentally prefix it with the word “Orthodox.” I daresay you mentally prefix it with the word “Catholic.”

Saint John told us ‘not to trust any and every spirit but to test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for amongst those who have gone out into world there are many prophets, falsely inspire’.

He even told us how to test the spirits: ‘We (the early church bishops) belong to God and a man who knows God listens to us, while he who does not belong to God refuses us (the early church bishops) a hearing. That is how we distinguish the spirit of truth from the spirit of error’.

I agree. The argument you’re making here seems to me to be just as much Orthodox as it is Catholic.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[ferdie]

That was my experience, also. It seems that the Orthodox Church is unknown to most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. The Catholic Church is most definitely known to them.

I follow. I never saw the claim for the Church to be protected by the Lord from going astray as being arrogant and I still don’t. I’m suggesting that the difficulty for those who do not have a Catholic mindset is the notion that the pope is endowed with this gift.

I agree.

I agree.

OK.

I agree. But I came to the conclusion that it’s the Orthodox Church and not the Catholic Church that contains the fullness of truth. So every time I encounter the word “Church,” I mentally prefix it with the word “Orthodox.” I daresay you mentally prefix it with the word “Catholic.”

I agree. The argument you’re making here seems to me to be just as much Orthodox as it is Catholic.

Respectfully,
Mick

I love my Orthodox brethren, and if a non-catholic will convert to any form of Christianity, I prefer that he/she convert to either the Catholic Church or to the Orthodox Church that specially do not condone contraception in any form.
I pray every day that in my lifetime that the Holy Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church will unite for the Glory of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Once this is achieved, then our protestant brothers and sisters will follow suit.
I agree that it is just as much Orthodox as it is Catholic. For** me** it boils down to:

1.The keys of the kingdom given to Peter alone,

2.**John21:15-19, **the command of our Lord to Peter alone to tend his whole flock which he could have told to all the Apostles but he didn’t,

1. the prophecy of the pure offering from sunrise to sundown, and
2. the presence and accessibility of the Catholic Church more than the Orthodox Church which for me proves the command to “Make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you at all time”

 

[Disciple96]

This is true with me also, but let me add that it is actually the Authority of God the Father that he gave to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, I was kinda thinking of the Most Holy and Blessed Trinity as being One, don’t ya know. But point taken.

 

[Primox]

reading the Bible is the same thing as listening to human beings

Is that a claim you’re truly willing to stand by?

One person by himself is not the Body; only the Church is the.

I never said I was isolated in my faith.

The Holy Spirit certainly guides us, but not into every wind of doctrine or trend of society.

No, In every wind of doctrine and trend of society. Why limit God in guiding us any less than fully if we believe on his name? “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 Jn. 4:1). Yes there are people who do and claim terrible things in God’s name, as you yourself have read, but don’t let that be a limitation on the degree to which God can guide us.

“He who hears you hears me; and he who rejects you rejects me; and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

I don’t reject the Pope as a man of authority on matters of faith and even a great benefactor of the faith – perhaps the greatest (there’s a surprise, huh?). But there is nothing, to me, necessary in that his authority should prevail over other Godly individuals. I just haven’t seen good evidence for believing it.

How many people have you seen do these things once they are baptized? It was necessary in the early times of the Apostles to confirm the authority given to them by our Lord.

I’ve seen enough of it to believe that, with faith, those things are possible. What do you believe God does today?

 

[SSTeacher]

I agree that it is just as much Orthodox as it is Catholic. For** me** it boils down to:

1.The keys of the kingdom given to Peter alone,

I follow your thinking and understand it.

2.**John21:15-19, **the command of our Lord to Peter alone to tend his whole flock which he could have told to all the Apostles but he didn’t,

I follow your thinking and understand it.

1. the prophecy of the pure offering from sunrise to sundown, and

I don’t follow. Please explain and enlarge.

1. the presence and accessibility of the Catholic Church more than the Orthodox Church which for me proves the command to “Make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you at all time”

I don’t follow. Please explain and enlarge.

Curiously,
Mick

 

[ferdie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferdie forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
3. the prophecy of the pure offering from sunrise to sundown, and
**
I don’t follow. Please explain and enlarge.**

When I was researching the Church History I came across the sacrifice of the mass. I found that both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church have the same belief. Then I read something about the prophesy of Malachi ( I’m sorry I don’t remember the verse and I’m explaining here from memory of what I researched 29 years ago) that the name of the Lord is great among the nations and from the rising of the sun to it’s setting a pure sacrifice is offered to the Lord. In the Philippines where I came from, the first sacrifice of the mass is offered at 4 am and ends at 7pm, so we are talking about 6 to 10 sacrifice of the mass every day depending on the parish you go to. When I went to Singapore, Japan, Malaysia, Thailand, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand, Korea, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Guam (and please don’t ask me how I got into these places, long story) I found out that masses are offered at least three times a day, and every major cities you will find a catholic church within 30 minutes drive and most often they are Latin Rite. Since I was curious of the Orthodox Church I also look for them. But I found that in some places there is not one Orthodox Church, and If I find one some are at least 3 hours away and some are within 30 minutes too.
Now through personal experience I found that the prophecy in the Book of Malachi is fulfilled in the Catholic Church.

 Quote:
                                                                  Originally Posted by **ferdie**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5240560#post5240560)                 
             *4. the presence and accessibility of the Catholic Church more than the Orthodox Church which for **me*** proves the command to "Make disciples of **all** nations, teaching them to observe **all** that I have commanded you at **all** time"

I don’t follow. Please explain and enlarge.

It the Command of our Lord is to be fulfilled to make disciples of all nations, at **all **times, teaching **all **that he commanded, then the Church he commanded must be present in all places in the world, easily accessible at all times teaching all the same doctrines that wherever physical church I go, I will be at ease to know that they are teaching the same doctrine. And again through experience I found out that the Catholic Church fulfilled this command.
I hope you understand me here.

 

[SSTeacher]

When I was researching the Church History I came across the sacrifice of the mass. I found that both the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church have the same belief. Then I read something about the prophesy of Malachi ( I’m sorry I don’t remember the verse and I’m explaining here from memory of what I researched 29 years ago) that the name of the Lord is great among the nations and from the rising of the sun to it’s setting a pure sacrifice is offered to the Lord. In the Philippines where I came from, the first sacrifice of the mass is offered at 4 am and ends at 7pm, so we are talking about 6 to 10 sacrifice of the mass every day depending on the parish you go to. When I went to Singapore, Japan, Malaysia, Thailand, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand, Korea, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Guam (and please don’t ask me how I got into these places, long story) I found out that masses are offered at least three times a day, and every major cities you will find a catholic church within 30 minutes drive and most often they are Latin Rite. Since I was curious of the Orthodox Church I also look for them. But I found that in some places there is not one Orthodox Church, and If I find one some are at least 3 hours away and some are within 30 minutes too.
Now through personal experience I found that the prophecy in the Book of Malachi is fulfilled in the Catholic Church.
It the Command of our Lord is to be fulfilled to make disciples of all nations, at **all **times, teaching **all **that he commanded, then the Church he commanded must be present in all places in the world, easily accessible at all times teaching all the same doctrines that wherever physical church I go, I will be at ease to know that they are teaching the same doctrine. And again through experience I found out that the Catholic Church fulfilled this command.
I hope you understand me here.

Yes, now I understand. Thanks ever so much for taking the time to explain it to me.

Appreciatively,
Mick