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What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?
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diggit03
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Well, from what I understand and have read, Purgatory is a state deep and complete realization- during which we undergo a remorse so painful, we cannot experience it as human beings. It is when we understand why our sins impact ourselves and those around us. It is a kind of cleansing we must go through before we enter Heaven. I come to terms with it as what the ghost of Jacob Marley was experiencing in A Christmas Carol.
Holy Communion well recieved (look it up) would reduce our time in Purgatory like this: by the reception of the Most Holy Body and Blood of Jesus, we are given graces and wisdom to understand more and be better people on Earth so that we require less of a reality check once we go out of this world.
(Since I mentioned A Christmas Carol- our faults are not as easily seen, known or observed as Scrooge’s. We’re sinners in a much more discrete and sly way and part of a plan much bigger than ourselves- so we must search deep, try unceasingly and never be smug. Love. Think. Trust. Pray for mercy. Satan is relentlessly tricky and manipulative.)
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Dokimas
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Let me ask you this - what was the reason that God inspired certain men to write the books that we include in the Scriptures, if we are not meant to understand them?
But if we believe that we understand them, then why is it such a sin to mention that we do?
Are you saying you have a corner on truth?
Or is it possible that I may be correct and you incorrect event though you believe “strongly” that it’s you that is correct? And visa versa.
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Finrock
Guest
Hello Anna! I hope you’ve had a good weekend. 
Thank you for taking the time to read and to respond to my post.
Whether a devil or a saint testifies that Jesus is the Christ, both testimonies are true. In other words, my religious affiliation is irrelevant to the truth claims of my posts. They are true or they are false independent of who or what I am. I hope that you don’t reject my comments summarily simply because I happen to belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Kind Regards,
Finrock
Thank you for taking the time to read and to respond to my post.
I am sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience with the Mormon church. I’m a bit perplexed that your Mormon friends couldn’t answer your questions since, barring the doctrine of exaltation (we can become gods by grace), the “doctrines” you have an issue with are either misconstrued LDS doctrine or not LDS doctrine at all. Anyways, I don’t want to distract the conversation so I’ll leave it at that.
Whether a devil or a saint testifies that Jesus is the Christ, both testimonies are true. In other words, my religious affiliation is irrelevant to the truth claims of my posts. They are true or they are false independent of who or what I am. I hope that you don’t reject my comments summarily simply because I happen to belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Kind Regards,
Finrock
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diggit03
Guest
jmcrae, you said:
"Let me ask you this - what was the reason that God inspired certain men to write the books that we include in the Scriptures, if we are not meant to understand them?
But if we believe that we understand them, then why is it such a sin to mention that we do?"
There are many, many ways to interpret things in the Bible. It is too easy to take things out of context- that’s also a reson many people find the Bible contradictory or inapplicable. That’s why the teachings of the Church are so very important.
Keep in mind, even Satan could quote the Scripture.
"Let me ask you this - what was the reason that God inspired certain men to write the books that we include in the Scriptures, if we are not meant to understand them?
But if we believe that we understand them, then why is it such a sin to mention that we do?"
There are many, many ways to interpret things in the Bible. It is too easy to take things out of context- that’s also a reson many people find the Bible contradictory or inapplicable. That’s why the teachings of the Church are so very important.
Keep in mind, even Satan could quote the Scripture.
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mark_a
Guest
You didn’t ask me, but here goes:
- All religions contain some truth
- According to Pope Benedict, the Catholic Church does not have a monopoly (if that’s what you meant by “corner”) on truth.
- However, if the Catholic Church doctrine (concerning faith and morals) says something is true, then it is true. Catholic doctrines are non-negotiables. Period.
The Catholic view is that if you deny (not question, but deny) a Catholic doctrine, you cannot possibly be correct.
For example, there has been speculation, even disagreement through history among theologians concerning infusement of the soul into human life. However, Church doctrine has always taught that abortion is intrinsically evil.
I hope this sheds light on the Catholic view.
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onenow1
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Hi All.
The biggest obsticle in short I think is free willand uninformed concience. John 17: 21-23. May they all be one, just as Father, you you are in me and I am in You so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was You who sent Me. I have given them glory You have given to Me,that they may be one as we are one. With Me in them and You in Me. May they be so perfected in unity that the world will recognise that it was You who sent Me, and that You have loved them, as You Have loved Me.
=Onenow1. Jesus in the garden said Your will not mine. With all the denominations that are at odds with one another with different understndings, what does the world see but confusion
Check the Catholic Church out on what it believed in matters of faith and morals 2000yrs ago and still believes and teaches today.
Peace, onenow1
The biggest obsticle in short I think is free willand uninformed concience. John 17: 21-23. May they all be one, just as Father, you you are in me and I am in You so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was You who sent Me. I have given them glory You have given to Me,that they may be one as we are one. With Me in them and You in Me. May they be so perfected in unity that the world will recognise that it was You who sent Me, and that You have loved them, as You Have loved Me.
=Onenow1. Jesus in the garden said Your will not mine. With all the denominations that are at odds with one another with different understndings, what does the world see but confusion
Check the Catholic Church out on what it believed in matters of faith and morals 2000yrs ago and still believes and teaches today.
Peace, onenow1
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Erchomai_Kyrios
Guest
In the Catholic tradition you have to be in the state of grace in order to take communion. Confession on Saturday usually assures that is so but acts of contrition before partaking in the elements used to be common. Also in the mass right before communion the priest and communicants say, "Lord I am not worthy to receive you. Speak but the word and my soul shall be healed. So if you die straight after communion you are going to heaven for all your sins have been absolved.
Protestants do not believe in purgatory and believe that Jesus died once for all sins but also believe in confession - although sins are confessed directly to God, as well as to brothers and sisters in the Lord.
These are only very short answers - I’m sure others will have more to say.
May the Lord Bless, Erchomai Kyrios
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Anna_Scott
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Finrock,
My Mormon friends did answer my questions. They confirmed the very beliefs that you say are “either misconstrued LDS doctrine or not LDS doctrine at all.”
They confirmed the following as beliefs of the LDS Church: God has a wife and lives on another planet (Kolob); there are other gods of other worlds; Joseph Smith wrote that he believed that Adam was god.
Even now, there are websites that confirm these beliefs, and even say Mormons believe that God was once a man, which fits the writings of Joseph Smith.
I would have let this go; but since you are denying that these things are doctrines of the LDS Church; I will tell you more about my experience with the Mormon church.
A Mormon bishop and his wife were my neighbors, before my divorce. I had known them for years. I admired the strength of their family. The bishop seemed like the father I never had. So, after my divorce, they invited me to their church. For weeks, I took lessons at the bishop’s home- with the Mormon Bishop and two Mormon missionaries.
I was at a very vulnerable point in my life. I wanted to belong someplace. I was a single mom, with no family in my city.
So, I went to the Mormon church and finished all the lessons. There were things that concerned me about the church services. I rarely heard the name of Christ spoken. Almost without exception, testimonies began with a statement of belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I was told that there are three heavens. I was also told that God, in the flesh, impregnated Mary.
I did eventually decide to join the church. The day before my baptism, a family member called me and told me about the Mormon belief that God has a wife and lives on another planet (kolob,) and men can become gods. I was so shocked; because none of this was discussed in the lessons-except a passing mention of exaltation-with no clear explanation.
So, I called the Bishop’s house and spoke to one of his daughters. I asked if these beliefs were true, and she admitted that they were. I was really shaken, but I did proceed with baptism. After the baptism, things became very strange. Every time I tried to read the Book of Mormon, I would feel ill–as if I were in a place of darkness.
Then one evening, I heard a knock at my door. It was a friend of mine who drove from another state for a surprise visit. During her stay, I told her that I had been baptized into the Mormon church. She told me she had taken the lessons many years ago. She also told me she found one of Joseph Smith’s early books. Smith actually wrote that he believed Adam was god.
I knew I had to break the connection with the Mormon church as quickly as possible. So, I called the bishop’s wife and told her I did not want any further connection with the Mormon church. She came to my house and asked me why. I told her all the things I had learned about the Mormon beliefs. She acknowledged that they were all true.
When I told her about Joseph Smith’s writings that revealed his belief that Adam was god, she could not deny that either. She said she was familiar with the “Adam/god theory.” I told her I felt that I had been deceived. During the lessons, I was told that the Mormon church is a Christian church–with the same beliefs in God and Jesus as other Christian Churches.
It didn’t end there; members of the church kept calling me and showing up at my door. I kept telling them I was not coming back to the church and to please stop contacting me.
It still didn’t stop. I received phone calls. I received things in the mail-which I marked “return to sender” and left for the Postman. Then, I started receiving things in the mail with no return address-a clear attempt to get me to open the package.
I finally had to write a formal letter to the church–telling them I would consider any further contact harassment—(though I had been harassed, since the moment I told them I was not coming back.)
I was Baptized into the Christian Church again. The whole Mormon experience taught me that blind trust in people and their beliefs can be a dangerous thing.
Now, I look to God. I pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to “distinguish between the spirits,” and to reveal God’s Truth to me. I study the Bible. I study the history of the Church. I participate in Christian Forums.
Yet, at the end of the day, that which I hold as Truth, comes from God, and from God alone.
Perhaps you denied these beliefs, because you do not believe these things. So, I make no judgment concerning your faith or what you actually believe. I have no right to judge anyone. I have simply relayed my experience with the Mormon church.
1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV) says, “11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”
As I said in my post, I hold no ill feelings toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Mormon Church. However, I did have a very traumatic experience with this church.
May God Reveal His Truth to Us All,
Anna
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Erchomai_Kyrios
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Anna_Scott
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Erchomai Kyrios:
Thank you for the information and links. I will check the sources you gave re Corrie & Max Kolbe.
We hear of all the evil involved in the Holocaust, yet there were indeed Christians who risked their lives to save the Jewish people.
These Christians have not been forgotten by the Jewish people-such as my earlier post regarding my Jewish friends who still send checks to help support the Catholic Nuns who risked so much to help the Jews during the Holocaust.
I think you are right in saying, “Jesus gives us great courage in the face of many obstacles that many shrink from. I am inspired by what Jesus has called so many to do in overcoming evil. Christ is all about overcoming and desires those He call to also do the same.”
In Christ,
Anna
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SSTeacher
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Anna,
Thanks for posting the above. I found what you wrote very engaging and informative.
Appreciatively,
Mick
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SSTeacher
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Hi ScottishColleen,SSTeacher;5150912:
I had in mind the Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus promulgated by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854.
Helpfully,
Mick
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Peter_J
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That’s a good list, but I don’t think those 15 or so items are all equally big obstacles to unity.
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Peter_J
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Hi Dokimas,
Most definitely we all need to be very cautious about claiming to have “a corner on understanding of Scripture”.
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Anna_Scott
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Just wanted to make sure I understood the Catholic beliefs correctly. One thing I have learned on these forums is not to make assumptions. I did learn that the hard way.
I do see hints of Transubstantiation in John 6:53-56 (ESV): 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
remembrance of the body and blood of our Lord.
For me, the Lord’s Supper, as it is called in many Protestant Churches, is both of the above. I believe that Christ is Spiritually present during this Holy Sacrament, and that partaking in this Sacrament is done as a Remembrance of the Body of Christ-broken for us; and of the Cup-poured out for us as the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:23-29 (ESV): 23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for[a] you. Do this in remembrance of me.”**
25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Footnotes: a. 1 Corinthians 11:24 Some manuscripts broken for; b.1 Corinthians 11:24 Or as my memorial; also verse 25.
Luke 22:18-20 has similar wording.
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I was not aware of this Catholic belief.
I do believe that we must confess and repent of our sins, as this Sacrament is not to be taken lightly. In being forgiven for our sins, we invite the Holy Spirit to dwell fully within us. So, I agree that we cannot enter into this Sacrament in an unworthy manner, drawing from the same Scripture you quoted:
1 Corinthians 11:27-29 (ESV): 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself.
You are correct in saying that Protestants do not believe in purgatory. However, I do not believe that our only chance for Salvation is during our physical lifetime on this earth. Many Protestants would disagree with me on this. I do pray for the Salvation of the souls of the departed-this is not a common practice in the Protestant Sector.
Confession is an entirely different issue.
I confess my sins to God the Father, through Our Lord Jesus Christ, as Christ is our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 5:1-10 (ESV): 1 For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
2 He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness.
3 Because of this he is obligated to offer sacrifice for his own sins just as he does for those of the people.
4 And no one takes this honor for himself, but only when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,
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"You are my Son,6 as he says also in another place,
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"You are a priest forever,7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus[a] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. Footnotes: a. Hebrews 5:7 Greek he.
Also see Hebrews 2:16-18 and Hebrews 3:1-2.
So, on the issue of unity between Protestants and Catholics: we do have some very distinct differences regarding the “Sacrament of Holy Communion” or “The Lord’s Supper.” Though I can see hints of both in Scriptures.
I think the issue regarding “to whom we confess our sins is a big issue.”
I see Christ as the High Priest. I pray to God the Father through Christ. I confess and repent of my sins to God the Father through Christ, who was designated by God to be a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
Still, Christ did give authority to the Apostles to forgive sins, which I mentioned in another post. So, I can see why Catholics would confess to a Priest.
Well, at least we are all talking. That is a good thing.
Anna
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jmcrae
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Not physically (that is to say, the molecules and the appearance remain the same) but rather, substantially, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, so, when we encounter Christ in the Eucharist, it is a physical and material encounter, but it is not on the same level as what the Apostles had, when they encountered Him in His humanity.
When I say “substantially” I am referring to a specific philosophical definition of substance, where substance is the essential character of a thing. For example, all chairs, regardless of what they are made of, all of them contain the same substance of “chair-ness.” If you encounter a kind of chair that you have never seen before, you immediately perceive its “chair-ness” and identify it as a chair, even though it is a kind of chair that you have never encountered before.
in the same way, we perceive Jesus in the Eucharist, even though it has the appearance and even all of the outward effects (called “accidents” in philosophical language) of bread and wine.
Are you thinking of something specific? In that we must receive Holy Communion in a state of grace, and in that Holy Communion itself imparts grace, I suppose that each time we receive Holy Communion in a worthy manner, we get closer and closer to Heaven, and assuming we don’t lose any ground by committing sin in between times, receiving Holy Communion frequently would be a good way to advance quite a great distance on our journey towards Heaven. Also, when receiving a Plenary Indulgence, one of the things we do as part of that is to receive Holy Communion on the same day, and if someone does all of the necessary things (Confession, Holy Communion, prayer for the Pope and the indulgenced action itself) the person would not experience Purgatory at all, if they remain in that state for the rest of their lives.
Purgatory is the process of spiritual purification and healing that takes place when we die, so that we can enter Heaven without the vestiges of any bad habits, and without the wounds of sin, on our souls. Heaven is not just a happy place that we go to after we die (ie: it’s not Valhalla or Paradise) - rather, it is the state of being in perfect harmony with God.
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ScottishColleen
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Thank you, it does help to clarify which you were referring to. I would agree, this is an issue, but I (personally) do not see it as a dividing point (as I believe John the Baptist was “saved” filled with the Holy Spirit before birthHi ScottishColleen,
I had in mind the Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus promulgated by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854.
Helpfully,
Mick
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SSTeacher
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ScottishColleen,SSTeacher;5324719:
promulgated by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854.
Helpfully,
Mick
Thank you, it does help to clarify which you were referring to. I would agree, this is an issue, but I (personally) do not see it as a dividing point (as I believe John the Baptist was “saved” filled with the Holy Spirit before birth
You’ve lost me.
Confusedly,
Mick
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Disciple96
Guest
I think there’s a confusion here as to what, or whom, the term Immaculate Conception refers to. Mary was immaculately conceived but in the normal human fashion. Jesus was miraculously conceived and not in the normal human fashion at all, but rather by the power of the Holy Spirit overshadowing the Virgin Mary. No human male partner played a role in his conception.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottishColleen forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
* Quote:
Originally Posted by SSTeacher* forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
Hope that helps.
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