What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[Roy5]

GOSH!

Yes, gosh. You (Bob) just recommended those books yesterday and you’re already scolding me for not reading them! God surely can work mircales, but I don’t claim that power.

I read about everything that I have time for, including at least five Catholic publications - KofC magazine, this diocesan monthly, US Catholic, Commonweal, America. Plus others now and then as they become available at the library or elsewhere. My guess is that I keep up on Catholicism far, far better than most Catholics. I also read a variety of other Christians journals as well as get five papers delivered daily. Fortunately, retirement permits me to do lots of this.

As I mentioned, all sorts of evidence suggests that faith healings happen. This seems to be true regardless of faith - as long as there is plenty of faith. I am quite well-acquainted with such Protestant groups as the Pentecostalists, and miracle healings are their stock-in-trade. I could never be Pentecostal because they have too severe limitations in their thinking. My mind needs plenty of room for exploration, discovery, expansion, and awe.

  Keep smiling - and keep the faith. The faith of Christ not of any one church. God bless everybody.

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

I’ve heard some say that when Pilot asked Jesus, “What is truth?” Jesus didn’t reply. A friend of mine who is a msgr. in Rome told me years ago that all Christ had to do was to face Pilot and turn with His hands at His side palms up indicating, “Here I am.” bobmck

I have taught my students the same. The Truth was staring Him in the face. Pilot was gazing into the depth of Truth in Jesus eyes, yet Jesus did not respond verbally - and I believe this is significant as well.

John 18:37-38 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?”
Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth.
Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
It begs the question, Was Pilate of the truth? After all he did not hear Jesus’ voice
Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?”
And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them,
“I find no guilt in Him.”
There is much more to this exchange then the text can illuminate

Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Jhn 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Jhn 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Jhn 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus prayed to the Father that we might receive from the Father the Holy Spirit that we might testify to the Truth from He who is Truth.
Jhn 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. Jhn 17:19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

The Holy Spirit testifies to the Truth

Jhn 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, {but} you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
Jhn 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
Jhn 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Jhn 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

The antithesis of the Truth is the spirit of antichrist

Jhn 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[jmcrae]

A QUICK RESPONSE

Bob, I appreciate your effort to convince me, but let me reply briefly as follows.

(1) My 'church' - as you call it - is open to those with a variety of understandings and beliefs. That's where it differs from traditional Christianity with its intellectual limitations. That sort of religion demands conformity. You are welcome to join my 'church' if you are tolerant toward views not your own. I enjoy hearing different opinions that help my mind feast on new ideas and gain new and greater understanding.

That sounds a whole lot like either the United Church of Canada, or else the Unitarian Universalists. They do indeed have a rigid creed - it’s just a creed of doubt and unbelief. If you don’t hold to their immutable doctrine that “nothing can be known” then you are just as mercilessly drummed out of those organizations as any Catholic for doubting the Real Presence, or any Pentecostalist for doubting the miracle of tongues.

 (2

) Hm! Sorry, but - for example - I simply can’t accept all the miracles attributed to Padre Pio. Bilocation, at two places at the same time? Levitation? Give me a break. As for Mother Theresa, revelations since her death indicate that she was full of doubt. That part doesn’t trouble me at all, and I regard her life as a wonderful testimony to the love of Christ. But it strikes me that she wasn’t all that traditional beneath her outward conformity.

It depends on how you define “traditional.” She was certainly a very traditional Catholic, but a traditional Catholic is nothing at all like a Protestant Fundamentalist (and I have great respect for Protestant Fundamentalists) nor like, really, a member of any religion apart from the Catholic religion. Her attitude toward the Hindus by whom she was surrounded is drawn almost word-for-word from the official documents of Vatican II - she was in no way being “rebellious” against the official teachings of the Catholic Church when she acknowledged the good that Hinduism has to offer the world, nor when she said that whatever is true in Hinduism is true enough for every human being on earth to believe - she was merely echoing the Catholic attitude towards truth, which is that whatever is true, is true for everyone - there is nothing out there that can be “true for me” that isn’t also true for every human being on the planet.

All this is more complicated than that, of course, but time is at a premium. If you can believe traditional Christianity, fine.

I can believe traditional Christianity, because what was handed down to them, they have handed down to me (I am alluding to I Corinthians 11:23), without any “redefining” going on along the way.

 

[superdave69]

Roy5

\your thread is quite interesting and I must admit through my 70 years, I have had many of the same thoughts. You sort of stated Jesus knew he was going to be God again and reign in his heavenly Kingdom. God did not die on the cross, and Jesus and God are the same one. The Holy Spirit seems to be left out of your Christian Church. To me it sounds like the whole group can sort of decide what to think and say. Almost sounds like you are on the same plain as Jesus, if fact in the 60’s you were maybe a hippy where love, was freedom of thought and yes Love. Fact is without the Trinity no one can be a Christian, it is either the whole package or none as Jesus himself said many times. Any one can take a verse out of the Bible and try to validate his point. God sent the Holy Spirit to be our guide and truth in his word. The Church was established by Jesus Christ, to follow his word. This was so false doctrine would not over throw the truth and the way. Yes you are 100% right about one thing Jesus Christ is the Church.
But there is no Human alive who has the power of God, or to put a limit on what God can do, has done, and will do, in what Jesus Christ established as his Holy Church.
Mother Theresa did have doubts, as all Christians do, Read your own thread, so do you.

With Christ love, because without it , your right our world is full of sin and wickness.

Super Dave

 

[Roy5]

A couple quick points in response

 I should really stop this as I should be doing other things. But I feel the need to respond.

 (1) I am not particularly interested in the Trinity. It may be a useful analogy in that God expresses himself in three dimensions - as creator and sustainer, through Christ and others who bring the message of salvation, and through the spirit of God, much alive in the world. Rather like the sun (Father) which sends light (Son) and heat (Spirit). But all the hubbub about Trinity as a mysterious and complex theology is of little interest to me, I actually have some sympathy for the Adoptianists and Arians and Monarchians and other early heretics, many of them oppressed or killed for their beliefs.  Still, I have not found the Unitarian Universalist church all that attractive because most of their churches give inadequate attention to Christ and because I love the old hymns of the mainline churches.

They are somewhat too cerebral for me, also. I like some emotion along with intellectual sermons.

  (2) I am well acquainted with the United Church of Canada, a merger of Methodists, Congregationalists, and most Canadian Presbyterians back in 1925. They permit freedom of thought and I need that. Most of their local churches have a wide spectrum of belief - from Unitarianish to evangelical. I like that sort of church, though I am not in the United Church of Canada. Most mainline Protestant churches have a wide divergence of theology within their membership, and that suits me fine. It can make for a healthy dialogue. And we certainly aren't saved either by our theology or our denominational affiliation. We're saved by the grace of God.

  (3) To me - let's face it - this enormous and magnificent creation involves much that we do not understand. Many people, maybe most, need a set way of interpreting it. That's why so many belong to authoritarian churches - like the Catholic Church and fundamentalist Protestant churches (that seem to be thriving at this time). I don't need such an authority, whether the Vatican or the Bible. Besides, I confess to a basic skepticism which says that our finite minds simply can't understand the universe, that mortal minds are too limited. To me this only adds grandeur and awe when it comes to God. Isn't it arrogant and presumptuous for humans to think that they can know the unknowable? I had just as soon live by simple faith without the need for a variety of creeds and catechisms. My credo is what Jesus called us to do: love God and love one another. Sadly, theology has done too much to promote dogmatism and prejudice - and worse.

   My favorite denomination probably would be the Society of Friends - the Quakers - but they don't have a meeting within a convenient distance from here. They make less of theology and liturgy and magnify peace and justice. On the other hand, they may have too little liturgy. I certainly love to belt out the old Protestant hymns even though those in nearby pews sometimes look around to see who's making all that noise! 

   But my main concern is that religion become a bridge and not a barrier, that we learn to respect other faiths and not feel that if people don't belong to our particular faith they are somehow short-changed or inferior in the eyes of God. I'm sure he isn't the least bit interested in whether we are a Catholic, Protestant or whatever. He looks at our hearts.

    Most Catholics I know agree with me. My 'signifiant other' (I am a widower) is a Catholic who attends mass every Sunday. But when it comes to doctrines, she is a 'heretic', too. She certainly doesn't believe in transubstantiation, for example. But she finds comfort in the mass. And that's fine with me. I sometimes attend with her and most of the time find it boring. I value good sermons, and you seldom hear more than a quick homily in a Catholic church in these parts. Many fine priests, but too much ritual, too little mind stimulation.

   God bless the whole world, including the Catholic Church.

 

[superdave69]

Roy5:

Catholic’s and traditional Churches may be not for you? I am what you would call a rebel back when I was young.I sometimes think, we all put too much stock in our Churches and not enough love and in that I mean Christ love as humans our love is pretty shallow. WE need to always have an open mind in Christ and I never think any one Church has the only patient on Christ and his Church. As Humans, we talk the talk more than we really walk the walk in Christ. I get very upset when my sinful ways appear and I let anger override my Christian Spirit and act like a idiot. This being said I will never give up to the very end as Christ promised us if we repent our sins and continue on his path, we shall see the Glory of Heaven.

May you have peace in your heart and God bless every Human Being where ever they are.

Super Dave

 

[Bob_McKissick]

A couple quick points in response

 I should really stop this as I should be doing other things. But I feel the need to respond.

 (1) I am not particularly interested in the Trinity. It may be a useful analogy in that God expresses himself in three dimensions - as creator and sustainer, through Christ and others who bring the message of salvation, and through the spirit of God, much alive in the world. Rather like the sun (Father) which sends light (Son) and heat (Spirit). But all the hubbub about Trinity as a mysterious and complex theology is of little interest to me, I actually have some sympathy for the Adoptianists and Arians and Monarchians and other early heretics, many of them oppressed or killed for their beliefs.  Still, I have not found the Unitarian Universalist church all that attractive because most of their churches give inadequate attention to Christ and because I love the old hymns of the mainline churches.

They are somewhat too cerebral for me, also. I like some emotion along with intellectual sermons.

  (2) I am well acquainted with the United Church of Canada, a merger of Methodists, Congregationalists, and most Canadian Presbyterians back in 1925. They permit freedom of thought and I need that. Most of their local churches have a wide spectrum of belief - from Unitarianish to evangelical. I like that sort of church, though I am not in the United Church of Canada. Most mainline Protestant churches have a wide divergence of theology within their membership, and that suits me fine. It can make for a healthy dialogue. And we certainly aren't saved either by our theology or our denominational affiliation. We're saved by the grace of God.

  (3) To me - let's face it - this enormous and magnificent creation involves much that we do not understand. Many people, maybe most, need a set way of interpreting it. That's why so many belong to authoritarian churches - like the Catholic Church and fundamentalist Protestant churches (that seem to be thriving at this time). I don't need such an authority, whether the Vatican or the Bible. Besides, I confess to a basic skepticism which says that our finite minds simply can't understand the universe, that mortal minds are too limited. To me this only adds grandeur and awe when it comes to God. Isn't it arrogant and presumptuous for humans to think that they can know the unknowable? I had just as soon live by simple faith without the need for a variety of creeds and catechisms. My credo is what Jesus called us to do: love God and love one another. Sadly, theology has done too much to promote dogmatism and prejudice - and worse.

   My favorite denomination probably would be the Society of Friends - the Quakers - but they don't have a meeting within a convenient distance from here. They make less of theology and liturgy and magnify peace and justice. On the other hand, they may have too little liturgy. I certainly love to belt out the old Protestant hymns even though those in nearby pews sometimes look around to see who's making all that noise! 

   But my main concern is that religion become a bridge and not a barrier, that we learn to respect other faiths and not feel that if people don't belong to our particular faith they are somehow short-changed or inferior in the eyes of God. I'm sure he isn't the least bit interested in whether we are a Catholic, Protestant or whatever. He looks at our hearts.

    Most Catholics I know agree with me. My 'signifiant other' (I am a widower) is a Catholic who attends mass every Sunday. But when it comes to doctrines, she is a 'heretic', too. She certainly doesn't believe in transubstantiation, for example. But she finds comfort in the mass. And that's fine with me. I sometimes attend with her and most of the time find it boring. I value good sermons, and you seldom hear more than a quick homily in a Catholic church in these parts. Many fine priests, but too much ritual, too little mind stimulation.

   God bless the whole world, including the Catholic Church.

This is a fine catechism with dogma and all that you have just presented with all of those things that you want to pass on to others. But if Christ is as you say He is, just another very fine fellow, then He should be stricken from the earth because He claimed to be God and if He is not then He is a liar to be dismissed. bobmck

 

[wisdomseeker]

A couple quick points in response

 I should really stop this as I should be doing other things. But I feel the need to respond.

 (1) I am not particularly interested in the Trinity. It may be a useful analogy in that God expresses himself in three dimensions - as creator and sustainer, through Christ and others who bring the message of salvation, and through the spirit of God, much alive in the world. Rather like the sun (Father) which sends light (Son) and heat (Spirit). But all the hubbub about Trinity as a mysterious and complex theology is of little interest to me, I actually have some sympathy for the Adoptianists and Arians and Monarchians and other early heretics, many of them oppressed or killed for their beliefs.  Still, I have not found the Unitarian Universalist church all that attractive because most of their churches give inadequate attention to Christ and because I love the old hymns of the mainline churches.

They are somewhat too cerebral for me, also. I like some emotion along with intellectual sermons.

  (2) I am well acquainted with the United Church of Canada, a merger of Methodists, Congregationalists, and most Canadian Presbyterians back in 1925. They permit freedom of thought and I need that. Most of their local churches have a wide spectrum of belief - from Unitarianish to evangelical. I like that sort of church, though I am not in the United Church of Canada. Most mainline Protestant churches have a wide divergence of theology within their membership, and that suits me fine. It can make for a healthy dialogue. And we certainly aren't saved either by our theology or our denominational affiliation. We're saved by the grace of God.

  (3) To me - let's face it - this enormous and magnificent creation involves much that we do not understand. Many people, maybe most, need a set way of interpreting it. That's why so many belong to authoritarian churches - like the Catholic Church and fundamentalist Protestant churches (that seem to be thriving at this time). I don't need such an authority, whether the Vatican or the Bible. Besides, I confess to a basic skepticism which says that our finite minds simply can't understand the universe, that mortal minds are too limited. To me this only adds grandeur and awe when it comes to God. Isn't it arrogant and presumptuous for humans to think that they can know the unknowable? I had just as soon live by simple faith without the need for a variety of creeds and catechisms. My credo is what Jesus called us to do: love God and love one another. Sadly, theology has done too much to promote dogmatism and prejudice - and worse.

   My favorite denomination probably would be the Society of Friends - the Quakers - but they don't have a meeting within a convenient distance from here. They make less of theology and liturgy and magnify peace and justice. On the other hand, they may have too little liturgy. I certainly love to belt out the old Protestant hymns even though those in nearby pews sometimes look around to see who's making all that noise! 

   But my main concern is that religion become a bridge and not a barrier, that we learn to respect other faiths and not feel that if people don't belong to our particular faith they are somehow short-changed or inferior in the eyes of God. I'm sure he isn't the least bit interested in whether we are a Catholic, Protestant or whatever. He looks at our hearts.

    Most Catholics I know agree with me. My 'signifiant other' (I am a widower) is a Catholic who attends mass every Sunday. But when it comes to doctrines, she is a 'heretic', too. She certainly doesn't believe in transubstantiation, for example. But she finds comfort in the mass. And that's fine with me. I sometimes attend with her and most of the time find it boring. I value good sermons, and you seldom hear more than a quick homily in a Catholic church in these parts. Many fine priests, but too much ritual, too little mind stimulation.

   God bless the whole world, including the Catholic Church.

may i ask you why you chose the Bible is the means to learn about God and His Son?

:byzsoc:

 

[Bob_McKissick]

may i ask you why you chose the Bible is the means to learn about God and His Son?

:byzsoc:

I will answer this question since I think it must be addressed to me. I chose the Bible as the means to learn about God and His Son because the Church, which produced the Bible over a period of time, has been given by Christ “All power in heaven and on earth!” It is only by this power that we have assurance that the Bible is authentic. “Go ye therefore teaching all nations whatsoever I have commanded you and Lo I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world!” Peace and Love, bobmck

 

[wisdomseeker]

I will answer this question since I think it must be addressed to me. I chose the Bible as the means to learn about God and His Son because the Church, which produced the Bible over a period of time, has been given by Christ “All power in heaven and on earth!” It is only by this power that we have assurance that the Bible is authentic. “Go ye therefore teaching all nations whatsoever I have commanded you and Lo I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world!” Peace and Love, bobmck

thanks bob. but i was addressing to Roy 5. he seems to have his own idea of who God is.

 

[jmcrae]

A couple quick points in response

 I should really stop this as I should be doing other things. But I feel the need to respond.

 (1) I am not particularly interested in the Trinity. It may be a useful analogy in that God expresses himself in three dimensions - as creator and sustainer, through Christ and others who bring the message of salvation, and through the spirit of God, much alive in the world. Rather like the sun (Father) which sends light (Son) and heat (Spirit).

This is a perfect description of the heresy of Modalism.

God is not one Person in Three Modes. God is Three Persons who share a single will, a single mind, and a single intellect.

Most Catholics I know agree with me. My ‘signifiant other’ (I am a widower) is a Catholic who attends mass every Sunday. But when it comes to doctrines, she is a ‘heretic’, too. She certainly doesn’t believe in transubstantiation, for example. But she finds comfort in the mass. And that’s fine with me. I sometimes attend with her and most of the time find it boring. I value good sermons, and you seldom hear more than a quick homily in a Catholic church in these parts. Many fine priests, but too much ritual, too little mind stimulation.

If you want mental stimulation, you should read the writings of the Saints. Once you’ve done so, you’ll understand why the average priest doesn’t feel adequate to compete with them.

History shows us that God founded the Catholic Church. If He didn’t mean for us to be members of it, or doesn’t care what we become members of, why on earth did He even bother?

 

[DLClark]

Can you show just one verse that says that if aperson is not baptized he is not saved?

 

[SSTeacher]

Can you show just one verse that says that if aperson is not baptized he is not saved?

John 3:5: Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit…”

Helpfully,
Mick

 

[GraceDK]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

I would say one of the biggest ones is the lack of humility when some say: We don’t have anyting to learn from others, we have enough in ourselves, in our own church, in our own tradition. people need to come to us, we not to them.
Another one is tepidity among many. If all were blazingly in love with Jesus Christ, not in dogma, laws and behaviours, but with Jesus Christ himself, then brother would recognize brother.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5150912:

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

I would say one of the biggest ones is the lack of humility when some say: We don’t have anything to learn from others, we have enough in ourselves, in our own church, in our own tradition. People need to come to us, we not to them.

Good point. As you’ve thought about it, have you been able to come up with any suggestions as to how that obstacle might be overcome?

Another one is tepidity among many. If all were blazingly in love with Jesus Christ, not in dogma, laws and behaviours, but with Jesus Christ himself, then brother would recognize brother.

Well said. But is there any remedy for this or are we reduced to just wringing our hands?

Thoughtfully,
Mick

 

[Bob_McKissick]

Good point. As you’ve thought about it, have you been able to come up with any suggestions as to how that obstacle might be overcome?

Well said. But is there any remedy for this or are we reduced to just wringing our hands?

Thoughtfully,
Mick

“people need to come to us, not us to them” WOW! talk about dogma, etc. bobmck

 

[Bob_McKissick]

thanks bob. but i was addressing to Roy 5. he seems to have his own idea of who God is.

Sorry 'bout dat! bobmck

 

[onenow1]

Can you show just one verse that says that if aperson is not baptized he is not saved?

Acts 8.
34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus.
36 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?”
38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing

Quote= onenow1. I wonder what that eunuch was told by Philip that they had to abruptly stop the chariot
Peace,onenow1opcorn:

 

[Disciple96]

A couple quick points in response

 I should really stop this as I should be doing other things. But I feel the need to respond.

 (1) I am not particularly interested in the Trinity. It may be a useful analogy in that God expresses himself in three dimensions - as creator and sustainer, through Christ and others who bring the message of salvation, and through the spirit of God, much alive in the world. Rather like the sun (Father) which sends light (Son) and heat (Spirit). But all the hubbub about Trinity as a mysterious and complex theology is of little interest to me, I actually have some sympathy for the Adoptianists and Arians and Monarchians and other early heretics, many of them oppressed or killed for their beliefs.  Still, I have not found the Unitarian Universalist church all that attractive because most of their churches give inadequate attention to Christ and because I love the old hymns of the mainline churches.

They are somewhat too cerebral for me, also. I like some emotion along with intellectual sermons.

  (3) To me - let's face it - this enormous and magnificent creation involves much that we do not understand. Many people, maybe most, need a set way of interpreting it. That's why so many belong to authoritarian churches - like the Catholic Church and fundamentalist Protestant churches (that seem to be thriving at this time). I don't need such an authority, whether the Vatican or the Bible. Besides, I confess to a basic skepticism which says that our finite minds simply can't understand the universe, that mortal minds are too limited. To me this only adds grandeur and awe when it comes to God. Isn't it arrogant and presumptuous for humans to think that they can know the unknowable? I had just as soon live by simple faith without the need for a variety of creeds and catechisms. My credo is what Jesus called us to do: love God and love one another. Sadly, theology has done too much to promote dogmatism and prejudice - and worse.

I just wanted to respond to a couple of your points, Roy5. Howdy, by the way.

1. As for not being interested in the Trinity. I read this yesterday but I didn’t even try to respond to it then. I was speechless. Not interested in the Trinity? Not interested? The Trinity Who Christ revealed? Hmm…Christ seemed to think it was important enough to mention, so that seems to be a hint that it’s important enough to ponder, don’t you think?

Now as to the Trinity being the creator, sustainer, messenger and spirit of life, or something close to that…What an amazingly Hindu-New Agey idea. Of course, these might be said to be things that the Trinity does, but the whole point of Christ’s message is that the Trinity is not a what (as in, creator, sustainer) but a Who. A family consisting of Father, Son and the Love between the Two, giving us the Three Divine Persons of the Most Blessed Trinity. And this very Holy Family is precisely the Family of which we are invited to become members by adoption. By entering into covenant with God, we become children in His Family. Through the sacraments we actually enter into covenant with God. He’s not some silly concept to be dispensed with. He’s our God and Father to be loved and communed with.

So…not being interested in the Trinity…completely boggles my mind. The Most Blessed and Holy Trinity is beautiful, mysterious, stunning, exciting, and I haven’t even scratched the surface about this here. Or in my personal reflections either. I look forward to spending eternity in the presence of the Trinity but I don’t have to wait until then. The Trinity lives in my soul already and I give thanks to God for this precious gift.

1. As far as a “set” way of interpreting creation…And calling the Catholic Church “authoritarian”… Our understanding of scripture and revelation has certainly not remained as it was in the beginning. We have grown and our understanding has grown too, as would be expected. The more we understand, the more the Holy Spirit can teach us and the more He teaches us, the more we can understand.

But as to the charge of authoritarianism, this is surely unjustified. That the Church has authority, I accept. That this makes her authoritarian, I do not accept. The implication is that she pretends to authority that she has no right to claim. But her authority she received from her Lord and this is in the text of the Bible which all Christians profess to accept. If she were merely throwing her weight around, willy nilly, then she could be rightly called authoritarian. But she is certainly not merely throwing her weight around when she speaks the truth in the name of that Truth Who founded her and commissioned her to speak that same truth throughout the world.

Christ Himself insitituted the Church, her ministerial priesthood, her sacraments, and told His apostles to go make disciples of all nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that He had commanded them. And that is what she does in every place and in every time: she speaks the truth that she has received, whether people are interested or not, whether they are receptive or not. She speaks and she teaches. Always has. Always will. And the discovery of Christ and His Church is the most interesting and exciting thing that has ever happened to me. Thirteen years and I’m more in love now than I was then with both of them.

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

I would say one of the biggest ones is the lack of humility when some say: We don’t have anyting to learn from others, we have enough in ourselves, in our own church, in our own tradition. people need to come to us, we not to them.
Another one is tepidity among many. If all were blazingly in love with Jesus Christ, not in dogma, laws and behaviours, but with Jesus Christ himself, then brother would recognize brother.

Amen to this post! Jesus told us to beware the leaven of the Pharisees and unfortunately that leaven has been with us for nearly 20 centuries. I expect that because the Lord warned us there would be tares growing among the wheat that He sowed. Although I love and am passionate about Christian history because it is filled with many inspiring saints that God raised up in order to honor the Name of the Lord with mighty acts of grace, it also sometimes makes me weep to read of such awful things done in that Name we hold so blessed and dear. When the cross of Christ is our primary focus the Lord’s Will then becomes clear and we pray, we love, we speak, we help and we encourage according to this Gospel of grace, which has gone to the ends of the earth and shall not return unto Him void. If we obey as we ought to then we will be on mission with Christ to our generation. It is useless to debate our differences if we do not see the burning love and passion of Jesus’ heart and bury our face in the tears of humility over our sins that separate us from the grace He desires to give us all in order to do His good will and spread His gospel. While we spend time in intellectual debate that often seems prideful and counter-productive His sheep are being led to the slaughter, even as we speak, and a dying world still has people in it who have not heard about the good news of Jesus Christ. What is that? What are we waiting for are not the fields white unto harvest?

Jesus Lord, King of Glory, You humble me Savior! Thank You for the cross! Thank You for the cross! Thank You! Thank You! I thank You for Your love which I see in Your blood which flowed from Your face, Your back, Your legs and Your hands and feet. Lord that I might kiss the thorns that crowned Your head, Your wrists that were nailed through, Your feet with bruised heel nailed through. Your Blood is Love beyond all love immeasurable and eternal. I will praise you forever! and ever! and never stop!
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