What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[Bob_McKissick]

Fair comment. If one took away the Bible, the Non–Catholic Western Christians would be struggling to find an identity. That’s not to say that without the Bible the Wesleyans would be less winsome or that the Methodists would be less magnanimous or that the Charismatics would be less convivial or that the Presbyterians (USA) would be less purpose–driven or that the Baptists would be less benevolent or that the Non–Denominational Christians would be less non–committal – just that they’d no longer have any good reason for continuing to be that way. Protestantism was founded on a truncated version of the Bible and without that truncated Bible elevated to a level unimagined by any Christian prior to the Reformation the Protestant movement would lose its raison d’être.

But that couldn’t happen if one took the Bible away from the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. The historical record precludes either the Eastern or Western Church being even vaguely associated with the notion that Christianity was founded on a text and both Churches would still be able to make disciples in exactly the same way that they have been making them since 33 AD.

The question of Authority is almost certainly the biggest obstacle to Christian Unity.

Cordially,
Mick

AMEN!!! bobmck

 

[jpaul1953]

Oh really? Just look at what happens when the interpertation of scripture is left to the individual. We have preachers who use the bible to support their position and CLAIM that they are being guided by the Holy Spirit but have completely different views on such things as:

* Infant or Adult baptism?
* Calvinist Predestination or Arminian Free Will?
* Once Saved Always Saved?
* Can You Lose Your Salvation?
* Is there Assurance of Salvation?
* Divorce
* Abortion
* Is prophecy still given?
* Are there still Miracles?
* Are miracles guaranteed if you have enough faith?
* Will there be a pre-tribulation Rapture of Christians?
* Premillenialism or Postmillenialism?
* Will there even be a millennium?
* Speaking in Tongues - is it valid or not?
* Baptism in the Holy Spirit - is it real or a deception?
* Are demons real?
* Is Jesus physically present in Communion?
* Are the Sacraments necessary to salvation?
* What form of Authority should exist in the Church?
* Need a Church have Bishops?
* Can Women be Pastors?
* Can homosexuals be admitted to Church?
* Does God promise Christians material prosperity?
* Should all Images be banned in Worship?
* How do you become a Christian?

… the list goes on and on. If scripture interprets itself, then there would be no disagreement on these and other areas. Since there IS disagreement when using the same point of reference, that would strongly indicate that your conclusion is incorrect.

Further more, if all we need is the bible on it’s own, how do you explain the canon of Scripture? How do you know what Scriptures are inspired using only the bible? You cannot, and this is devastating to the notion of sola Scriptura. You see, it was the Catholic Church who selected the canon of Scripture at the end of the fourth century. How did it do that?

The Church was led into this truth by the power of the Holy Spirit and used apostolic tradition to determine the apostolicity of the Scriptures. It also made this decision nearly 300 years after the death of the last apostle. If the Church can make an infallible decision 300 years after the death of the last apostle, then how come it cannot make equally authoritative decisions today? You cannot account for sola Scriptura during this period between the apostle John’s death and the selection of the canon (and you cannot say that there was a New Testament canon established before 382 A.D. because many texts, such as the Apocalypse, 3 John, Paul’s letter to the Hebrews, etc. were subject to a lot of debate; as were works such as the Didache and Clement’s letter). This destroys the theory of sola Scriptura.

You should also contemplate why there is not a single early Church father who espoused this theory of sola Scriptura. Instead, this novel theology was introduced by Luther, almost 1,500 years after Christ’s ascension. You can’t rely on Protestant exegetes of the 20th century to prove this novel theory. You must familiarize yourself with the fathers and doctors of the Church, those taught by the apostles and their successors. Christ’s Church was built upon Peter, to whom Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven. These keys represent the authority over the new Davidic kingdom restored and renewed in Jesus Christ. (cf. Isaiah 22:19-22). Re-acquaint yourself with history, and you will be in for a holy shock.

Let me try to make this succinct.

1. Sola Scriptura says everything we need to know that is necessary for our salvation comes from the Bible alone.
2. Knowing what Scriptures are inspired and what Scriptures are not inspired is necessary for our salvation.
3. Knowing what Scriptures are inspired and what Scriptures are not inspired cannot be known from the Bible.
4. Therefore, sola Scripture cannot be true.

The foregoing is irrefutable. That’s where our debate begins and ends.

Sir Knight,

I too am one (4th d). Outstanding script , outstanding. Thank you I will copy this page to keep for my on records.

Vivat Jesus

jpaul1953

 

[mpjw2]

J - Hatred toward and fear of the Catholic Church in general. The rest are just the specifics.

hi kalt, on behalf of all non catholic Christians who caused you to feel you are hated and/or are fearful of you, may i offer you my sincere apology. I was braught up catholic by my parents. Since leaving the catholic church, i never lost my respect for God’s Catholic family. I agree with all the forementioned differences which seperate non-catholic christians from catholics, but i am shocked to learn that your church feels hatred as a result of our different beliefs

 

[mark_a]

Oh really? Just look at what happens when the interpertation of scripture is left to the individual. We have preachers who use the bible to support their position and CLAIM that they are being guided by the Holy Spirit but have completely different views on such things as:

• Infant or Adult baptism?
• Calvinist Predestination or Arminian Free Will?
• Once Saved Always Saved?
• Can You Lose Your Salvation?
• Is there Assurance of Salvation?
• Divorce
• Abortion
• Is prophecy still given?
• Are there still Miracles?
• Are miracles guaranteed if you have enough faith?
• Will there be a pre-tribulation Rapture of Christians?
• Premillenialism or Postmillenialism?
• Will there even be a millennium?
• Speaking in Tongues - is it valid or not?
• Baptism in the Holy Spirit - is it real or a deception?
• Are demons real?
• Is Jesus physically present in Communion?
• Are the Sacraments necessary to salvation?
• What form of Authority should exist in the Church?
• Need a Church have Bishops?
• Can Women be Pastors?
• Can homosexuals be admitted to Church?
• Does God promise Christians material prosperity?
• Should all Images be banned in Worship?
• How do you become a Christian?

… the list goes on and on. If scripture interprets itself, then there would be no disagreement on these and other areas. Since there IS disagreement when using the same point of reference, that would strongly indicate that your conclusion is incorrect.

Further more, if all we need is the bible on it’s own, how do you explain the canon of Scripture? How do you know what Scriptures are inspired using only the bible? You cannot, and this is devastating to the notion of sola Scriptura. You see, it was the Catholic Church who selected the canon of Scripture at the end of the fourth century. How did it do that?

The Church was led into this truth by the power of the Holy Spirit and used apostolic tradition to determine the apostolicity of the Scriptures. It also made this decision nearly 300 years after the death of the last apostle. If the Church can make an infallible decision 300 years after the death of the last apostle, then how come it cannot make equally authoritative decisions today? You cannot account for sola Scriptura during this period between the apostle John’s death and the selection of the canon (and you cannot say that there was a New Testament canon established before 382 A.D. because many texts, such as the Apocalypse, 3 John, Paul’s letter to the Hebrews, etc. were subject to a lot of debate; as were works such as the Didache and Clement’s letter). This destroys the theory of sola Scriptura.

You should also contemplate why there is not a single early Church father who espoused this theory of sola Scriptura. Instead, this novel theology was introduced by Luther, almost 1,500 years after Christ’s ascension. You can’t rely on Protestant exegetes of the 20th century to prove this novel theory. You must familiarize yourself with the fathers and doctors of the Church, those taught by the apostles and their successors. Christ’s Church was built upon Peter, to whom Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven. These keys represent the authority over the new Davidic kingdom restored and renewed in Jesus Christ. (cf. Isaiah 22:19-22). Re-acquaint yourself with history, and you will be in for a holy shock.

Let me try to make this succinct.

1. Sola Scriptura says everything we need to know that is necessary for our salvation comes from the Bible alone.
2. Knowing what Scriptures are inspired and what Scriptures are not inspired is necessary for our salvation.
3. Knowing what Scriptures are inspired and what Scriptures are not inspired cannot be known from the Bible.
4. Therefore, sola Scripture cannot be true.

The foregoing is irrefutable. That’s where our debate begins and ends.

Great post!

I’m curious as to why contraception is not on the list.

 

[wisdomseeker]

hi kalt, on behalf of all non catholic Christians who caused you to feel you are hated and/or are fearful of you, may i offer you my sincere apology. I was braught up catholic by my parents. Since leaving the catholic church, i never lost my respect for God’s Catholic family. I agree with all the forementioned differences which seperate non-catholic christians from catholics, but i am shocked to learn that your church feels hatred as a result of our different beliefs

Correction. the Church does not feel hatred. dont tell me that you never heard protestants churches spreading hatefull comments about the Catholic Church?

we dont feel hatred, we know the Truth, therefore we continue in the hope that all come to the Truth some day.

** “But all did not obey the Gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:16**

 

[mpjw2]

I believe one of the biggest obstacles is the assurance of salvation. I believe the bible is the ABSOLUTE truth of the WORD of God. the bible declares …

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He, (meaning Jesus), was with God in the beginning. John 1:1,2

Who else but Jesus is this verse making reference to?

Jesus said in John 14:6 …

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Then in 1John 5:13, John writes…

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.

Finally my favorite verse in the whole bible states,

For God so loved the world, (which includes everyone), that he gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, (spiritual death), but have eternal life. John 3:16

From these verses alone I believe God is showing all of us how much He loves us that He would send His son Jesus to pay the price for the sin of all men women and children by His suffering and eventual death on the cross.

Another obstacle is works vs faith
I believe in my heart of hearts Jesus loves me unconditionally whether i sin or not, whether i reject Him or not, whether or not i do good works.

That said, the good i do is not to gain Jesus’s love (He already does), but because I first had the faith and trust in Him and what He did for me and all of you which caused me to want to repent and turn away from sin every day of my life and strive towards the person Jesus wants me to be .

sorry this was long… I spoke from my heart

thank you for reading,
I look forward to any replies

 

[jmcrae]

I believe one of the biggest obstacles is the assurance of salvation. I believe the bible is the ABSOLUTE truth of the WORD of God. the bible declares …

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He, (meaning Jesus), was with God in the beginning. John 1:1,2

Who else but Jesus is this verse making reference to?

Of course it’s Jesus. Nobody disagrees.

Jesus said in John 14:6 …

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And how do we come “through” Jesus? By obedience to His commandments, right?

Then in 1John 5:13, John writes…

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.

He is speaking to people who are, in fact, obeying the commandments of Christ. Not to random, unrepentant sinners.

Finally my favorite verse in the whole bible states,

For God so loved the world, (which includes everyone), that he gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, (spiritual death), but have eternal life. John 3:16

And if we believe in Him, then why not trust that His commandments are good for us to follow?

From these verses alone I believe God is showing all of us how much He loves us that He would send His son Jesus to pay the price for the sin of all men women and children by His suffering and eventual death on the cross.

We Catholics believe in the Cross - it is why we have Crucifixes in our churches.

Another obstacle is works vs faith
I believe in my heart of hearts Jesus loves me unconditionally whether i sin or not, whether i reject Him or not, whether or not i do good works.

God will always love you. The question is, do you love Him? If you don’t, then it won’t be God keeping you out of Heaven, but rather, yourself.

Love is an action word. We love others in what we do. We love God by obeying His commandments. Jesus said, (John 14:21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[mpjw2]

Correction. the Church does not feel hatred. dont tell me that you never heard protestants churches spreading hatefull comments about the Catholic Church?

we dont feel hatred, we know the Truth, therefore we continue in the hope that all come to the Truth some day.

** “But all did not obey the Gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:16**

hi wisdomseeker… kalt, in post 3, stated “hatred toward" which is why i responded the way i did.
I have heard derrogatory and I am sure hurtful comments towards Catholics, I was once Catholic too.

I apologized on their and my behalf. I might have made some comments when I first left the Catholic church.

My question to you is do you have it in your heart to forgive me all who have hurt you in this way?

on a good note, I agree with you that there will come a day when we all will know the absolute truth

 

[mpjw2]

hi jmcrae,

yes i love Jesus for the way he has shown that He loves me.

as to the purpose of the commandments, if i were to break every one of them and i do not confess them, is it your belief that Jesus will or will not love me?

my belief is that he will still love me and patiently wait for the day I sincerelt confess, repent and ask for His forgiveness.

 

[mpjw2]

hi again jmcrae

it is wonderful you believe in the cross. I do not have any doubts about that.

From your comment, do you believe non catholic churches where the cross with Jesus on it is not present do not believe in the cross?

We very much believe in the cross. The reason we have a cross in our church without Jesus is because the good news of the gospel does not end with Jesus dying on the cross.

We celebrate Jesus being alive, defeating death by his ressurection and ascention into heaven every Sunday with song and worship

that is why we raise our hands to Him in church while worshiping Him

let me ask you a question?

imagine if you could go back in time and be a witness to the tragedy of Jesus’s torture crucifixion and death.

that was on a friday.

then came Sunday.
You are at home and hear a knock on your door.

You open the door and there stands Jesus.

after the initial shock, how do you think you would greet Him?
Then later on, while outside amongst a group of people being addressed by Jesus, you all witness Him rising to the clouds into heaven.

question is,

What do you believe would be the subject of your conversation to those who have not witnessed what you just did?

A. tell them only about Jesus torture and then His death on the cross

or

B. tell them about the miracle you just witnessed…Jesus coming back to life and rising to heaven?

my answer is B. that is why you will not see Jesus on the cross at my church.

may God’s peace be with you

 

[Bob_McKissick]

hi jmcrae,

yes i love Jesus for the way he has shown that He loves me.

as to the purpose of the commandments, if i were to break every one of them and i do not confess them, is it your belief that Jesus will or will not love me?

my belief is that he will still love me and patiently wait for the day I sincerelt confess, repent and ask for His forgiveness.

mpjw2: Well said! I would add that if we refuse to repent even 'til the end, we have in effect said to God, “My will be done!” at which time He will sadly say, “So be it!” Then it is not God who would send us to hell but it is we who have chosen to go there! Keep the faith! bobmck

 

[mpjw2]

hi jmcrae,

i believe God gave us the commandments to follow not to gain His love but for us to show our love and respect to Him

 

[mpjw2]

hi jmcrae,

yes i love Jesus for the way he has shown that He loves me.

as to the purpose of the commandments, if i were to break every one of them and i do not confess them, is it your belief that Jesus will or will not love me?

my belief is that he will still love me and patiently wait for the day I sincerelt confess, repent and ask for His forgiveness.

mpjw2: Well said! I would add that if we refuse to repent even 'til the end, we have in effect said to God, “My will be done!” at which time He will sadly say, “So be it!” Then it is not God who would send us to hell but it is we who have chosen to go there! Keep the faith! bobmck

hi bob

thank you and God bless you

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

question is,

What do you believe would be the subject of your conversation to those who have not witnessed what you just did?

A. tell them only about Jesus torture and then His death on the cross

St. Paul answered this for us:

but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles… 1 Cor 1:23

God bless

 

[Sir_Knight]

I’m curious as to why contraception is not on the list.

I got tired of writing, which is why I ended with “the list goes on and on”; plus, I wasn’t completely sure if that was a division among Protestant churches.

 

[mpjw2]

hi Roman Catholic

i agree wih you Paul gave us 1Cor 1:23 because the Jews do not believe Jesus was crucified.

However, Paul concludes his first letter to the Corinths…

Now brothers I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you which you have received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to scriptures, that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to scriptures and that he appeared to Peter and then to the twelve 1Cor 15:1-5

here Paul credits the complete gospel as being the most important
also isn’t exciting to know that …

…you are God’s temple and that God’s spirit lives in you 1Cor 3:16

because Jesus lives, His spirit lives in all of us…Wow

God bless

 

[wisdomseeker]

I believe one of the biggest obstacles is the assurance of salvation. I believe the bible is the ABSOLUTE truth of the WORD of God. the bible declares …

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He, (meaning Jesus), was with God in the beginning. John 1:1,2

Who else but Jesus is this verse making reference to?

Jesus said in John 14:6 …

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Then in 1John 5:13, John writes…

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.

Finally my favorite verse in the whole bible states,

For God so loved the world, (which includes everyone), that he gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, (spiritual death), but have eternal life. John 3:16

From these verses alone I believe God is showing all of us how much He loves us that He would send His son Jesus to pay the price for the sin of all men women and children by His suffering and eventual death on the cross.

Another obstacle is works vs faith
I believe in my heart of hearts Jesus loves me unconditionally whether i sin or not, whether i reject Him or not, whether or not i do good works.

That said, the good i do is not to gain Jesus’s love (He already does), but because I first had the faith and trust in Him and what He did for me and all of you which caused me to want to repent and turn away from sin every day of my life and strive towards the person Jesus wants me to be .

sorry this was long… I spoke from my heart

thank you for reading,
I look forward to any replies

unfortunately for you. not everything that Jesus wants from us is written in one, two or even three sentences of the Bible.

**
“Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the
Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached
by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded;
and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.”
St. Athanasius, Letter to Serapion of Thmuis, 359 A.D…**

 

[wisdomseeker]

hi wisdomseeker… kalt, in post 3, stated “hatred toward" which is why i responded the way i did.
I have heard derrogatory and I am sure hurtful comments towards Catholics, I was once Catholic too.

I apologized on their and my behalf. I might have made some comments when I first left the Catholic church.

My question to you is do you have it in your heart to forgive me all who have hurt you in this way?

on a good note, I agree with you that there will come a day when we all will know the absolute truth

no, i am not hurt by anybody comments against the CC. i am surrounding by those. i just continue my Faith. i hope that some day soon, you will come back to the True Faith.

"Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the
Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached
by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded;
and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian."
St. Athanasius, Letter to Serapion of Thmuis, 359 A.D…

 

[wisdomseeker]

hi jmcrae,

i believe God gave us the commandments to follow not to gain His love but for us to show our love and respect to Him

ok then, do you obey all He commanded you to do? dont worry about the reasons why we should obey His commands. just say,. do you obey all He commanded you to do?

"Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the
Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached
by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded;
and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian."
St. Athanasius, Letter to Serapion of Thmuis, 359 A.D…

 

[mpjw2]

wisdomseeker…

I am sorry if I gave you the impression that what Jesus wants my life to be can be summed up in a few sentences of the bible.
i would be crazy to begin to think that.

I am glad to hear you are not hurt by the comments…as you have seen from post 3 there are those who are hurt.

obey alll the commandment?

in as much as i pray to God to keep me strong and not give in to temptation, I will admit I fall short of staying perfect and obeying all 10 commandments 24/7.

I can not thank Jesus enough for loving me so much that He would shed His precious blood so that my confessed sins are forgiven.

come back to true faith?? hmmmm

In your own words please tell me what you believe true faith to be
thank you and God bless