What do you think of a guitar Mass?

[JackVk]

Look up the Mikey Needleman band. The guitarist-Mikey Needleman-plays at guitar Masses throughout the Archdiocese of Kansas City, Kansas

 

[PatriceA]

They pretty much only use acoustic guitars at Mass.

I’ve been to a couple of Life Teen masses that used an electric guitar, and a bass, and a drum kit…and so on. Maybe that’s where some of the anomosity is coming from, from some of the posters in this thread.

I’ve been to masses where the organ playing was horrible. I’ve been to masses where it was a folk group, all acoustic, and I was deeply moved. I think sometimes it comes down to an adequate music director, talented musicians and appropriate music selections for the mass, regardless if its an organ or a guitar.

 

[SimonDodd]

There are guitars and there are guitars. Electric guitar can be a beautiful, expressive instrument (consider, e.g., this), but it has absolutely no business at Mass, in my view, still less drumkit and other instruments that belong properly and plainly to secular rock music. Likewise folksy strumming of acoustic guitars, although I suppose it could be acceptable pro re nata when no other instrument is available. (I sometimes fear for priests who say “we join with the all the choirs of angels in singing,” and then proceed to intone the sanctus in gravely-spoken tones.) But what about classical guitar, e.g. this?

 

[Phemie]

This is very well said. Part and parcel of the problem that I have encountered here at CAF is that there is a criticism of those of us who take the Church’s authoritative documents to heart. As you noted (and, as I also stated in one of my replies), the organ is the only instrument that the documents refer to by name. It holds the pride of place. The guitar lacks the beauty, the solemnity and the majesty that is found in the organ. It tends to make the liturgy more casual, as I have experienced it.

And it should be noted that it is specifically the pipe organ which is to be held in high esteem. I’ve seen commentaries saying electrical organs shouldn’t be allowed either. Yet, small churches can’t usually afford pipe organs and some can’t even afford electrical organs. They do what they can with what is available.

In our parish we have a classical guitarist who, when he is available, endeavours to play the organ at Mass. He’s usually accompanied by the two strummers who play when he’s not around. I’ve heard him play the guitar and he’d make a much more joyful (and pleasant) noise unto the Lord if he played his guitar for Mass.

 

[elgar]

And it should be noted that it is specifically the pipe organ which is to be held in high esteem. I’ve seen commentaries saying electrical organs shouldn’t be allowed either. Yet, small churches can’t usually afford pipe organs and some can’t even afford electrical organs. They do what they can with what is available.

In our parish we have a classical guitarist who, when he is available, endeavours to play the organ at Mass. He’s usually accompanied by the two strummers who play when he’s not around. I’ve heard him play the guitar and he’d make a much more joyful (and pleasant) noise unto the Lord if he played his guitar for Mass.

I hold a degree in organ performance from a respectable University, so I’m speaking with 30+ years experience in both Catholic and Protestant churches. What I find interesting here is relying solely on the musical talents of parishoners (gratis) in Catholic churches. I know there is a shortage of organists these days, but they are still out there and they demand a decent wage. In your parish, how much are you willing to pay for this kind of a leader?

As far as the expense of a pipe organ I see alot of mis-information on this forum. Our parish received a pipe organ for free on Craigslist. New electronic organs of any size can be as, if not more, expensive as a used pipe organ.

My take on guitars in church, is they usually need to be amplified and even then don’t lead large groups of people successfully like a good organ. Even though I don’t look favorable on pianos in Catholic churches–an interesting innovation started about 30 years ago–they tend to do a better job leading than guitars.

 

[zab]

I hold a degree in organ performance from a respectable University, so I’m speaking with 30+ years experience in both Catholic and Protestant churches. What I find interesting here is relying solely on the musical talents of parishoners (gratis) in Catholic churches. I know there is a shortage of organists these days, but they are still out there and they demand a decent wage. In your parish, how much are you willing to pay for this kind of a leader?

As far as the expense of a pipe organ I see alot of mis-information on this forum. Our parish received a pipe organ for free on Craigslist. New electronic organs of any size can be as, if not more, expensive as a used pipe organ.

My take on guitars in church, is they usually need to be amplified and even then don’t lead large groups of people successfully like a good organ. Even though I don’t look favorable on pianos in Catholic churches–an interesting innovation started about 30 years ago–they tend to do a better job leading than guitars.

I’m sure larger congregations have larger budgets to work with. How lucky for your parish to find a free pipe organ on Craigslist. How many free pipe organs do you think there are out there that wouldn’t cost a fortune to ship and restore? [sign]Free pipe organs on Craigslist[/sign] By the way, how do you know that Phemie’s parish does not employ a music leader?

 

[zab]

But what about classical guitar, e.g. this?

Now, that’s what I’m talking about! Beautiful!

 

[Newbie2]

Guitars in the Mass are in violation of Sancrosactum Concilim

Hogwash.

Could you quote the part that says guitars are in violation?

From Sancrosactum:
120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

Guitars are neither suitable nor can they be made so. Guitars are for secular entertainment

Says who?

it is self-evident that in our culture, guitars are for entertainment, and not worship.

Hogwash. “Self-evident”? Double Hogwash.

In western culture, the Organ is associated with worship. The guitar is associated with rock and roll, blues, country, pretty much anything except worship. If it is suitable for worship why was it NEVER used for worship before the 1970’s?

And in Hockeytown, the organ is associated with Hockey. I believe that is part of Western Culture. You are entitled to your opinion, but don’t try to snow us that Guitars are forbidden per Sancrosactum Concilim

No one should be surprised when the gloss black and chrome Fender Novus Ordo Stratocaster® makes its debut next year alongside the Roman Missal, Third Edition.

And perhaps the Matching Geddy Lee® Novus Ordo Bass.

 

[Phemie]

I hold a degree in organ performance from a respectable University, so I’m speaking with 30+ years experience in both Catholic and Protestant churches. What I find interesting here is relying solely on the musical talents of parishoners (gratis) in Catholic churches. I know there is a shortage of organists these days, but they are still out there and they demand a decent wage. In your parish, how much are you willing to pay for this kind of a leader?

Unfortunately, our parishioners would not agree to paying anyone for ministry. They resent paying for professional services and will usually try to guilt members who are electricians and plumbers and such into donating their services. It’s been one of my pet peeves about the parish.

I must say though, that our location precludes the use of an organist, there is no such critter in our isolated northern town. I doubt that any such person would want to move here unless there was a full-time well-paid job awaiting him/her. I don’t know what an organist would consider a decent wage as a full-time musician, but I’m sure it’s more than we could afford to pay, let alone what the parish would be willing to pay.

As far as the expense of a pipe organ I see alot of mis-information on this forum. Our parish received a pipe organ for free on Craigslist. New electronic organs of any size can be as, if not more, expensive as a used pipe organ.

My take on guitars in church, is they usually need to be amplified and even then don’t lead large groups of people successfully like a good organ. Even though I don’t look favorable on pianos in Catholic churches–an interesting innovation started about 30 years ago–they tend to do a better job leading than guitars.

Many of the hymns that are used in church today were written for piano and not for organ – or guitar for that matter. I’d rather hear piano than guitar but that also depends on the quality of the playing of each instrument. I’d rather sing *a cappella *than hear guitar strumming.

 

[SimonDodd]

And in Hockeytown, the organ is associated with Hockey.

Someone said this earlier, and it’s not correct. Electric organs—Hammond organs, Farfisas, etc.—are associated with hockey, skating rinks, and the like. Pipe organs—which is what all the Vatican documents that mention organ have in mind—are not associated with hockey, blues, jazz, and so forth. (The last secular song that I know of featuring a pipe organ was “Awaken” by Yes, which wasn’t exactly a top ten hit.)

No one should be surprised when the gloss black and chrome Fender Novus Ordo Stratocaster® makes its debut next year alongside the Roman Missal, Third Edition.

And perhaps the Matching Geddy Lee® Novus Ordo Bass.

I haven’t heard about the strat, but my understanding is that there will be a black telecaster with scarlet piping and binding and a white front pickup.

 

[pnewton]

I hold a degree in organ performance from a respectable University, so I’m speaking with 30+ years experience in both Catholic and Protestant churches. What I find interesting here is relying solely on the musical talents of parishioners (gratis) in Catholic churches. I know there is a shortage of organists these days, but they are still out there and they demand a decent wage. In your parish, how much are you willing to pay for this kind of a leader?

I totally agree, especially in large middle/upper class parishes, or Cathedrals that receive funding from around the diocese. Professional organists deserve a living wage. Thus the pipe organ can be given its due place at the largest and most affluent Churches.

 

[pnewton]

, the Church does not look at other forms of worship practiced by the Protestant ecclesial communities.

Sure she does, and always has. The culture of the people are always taken into account. In Latin America, the Mass takes on a Latin culture. In Africa, even dance has been incorporated (distinguishable from liturgical dance, btw). Inculturation has always been a part of Catholicism. This practice does not need to reflect at all on theology, the nature of the Mass, or our distinctive Catholic heritage.

 

[pnewton]

The more I read of the music debate threads in CAF, the more I’m convinced that many of the posters have no clue about life outside of their own very narrow sphere. I’m aware that especially people who are not from white, European backgrounds and/or grew up in certain areas of the U.S. have very different perceptions of certain musical instruments and musical styles. There is by no means a consensus in the U.S. on which instruments are secular and which are sacred. It all depends on where and how you grew up.

This is precisely why the Catholic Church relies on subsidiarity. The local priests and bishops decide what is best, within the guidelines, and implement disciplinary practices on the local level.

My parish has more converts than cradle Catholics, among the Anglos, and they are a minority in a larger hispanic/immigrant parish. What works for us simply would not fly in Boston, and visa versa.

 

[SimonDodd]

No one should be surprised when the gloss black and chrome Fender Novus Ordo Stratocaster® makes its debut next year alongside the Roman Missal, Third Edition.

My spies at Fender USA have obtained a concept image of this “Cardinalcaster.”

(Tongue very definitely in cheek for this one.)

 

[benedictgal]

This is precisely why the Catholic Church relies on subsidiarity. The local priests and bishops decide what is best, within the guidelines, and implement disciplinary practices on the local level.

My parish has more converts than cradle Catholics, among the Anglos, and they are a minority in a larger hispanic/immigrant parish. What works for us simply would not fly in Boston, and visa versa.

Actually, the CDWDS removed the issue of musical instruments from the purview of the local bishop. In its 2001 letter to the USCCB concerning adaptations to the GIRM, the CDWDS noted the following:

Certain other provisions seem to require further study and specification before being introduced as adapting legislation. What is said here may be understood to apply to nn. 301, 304, 326, 329, 339, 343, and the portion of n. 393 referring to approved musical instruments. In cases where the Conference of Bishops is to legislate, such legislation should be truly specific, and the law intends precisely that any particular episcopal legislation on these matters be enacted in common by the Bishops of the Conference rather than being left to be determined variously in different dioceses. In the absence of any particular legislation on such a matter, specifications contained in the universal law maintain their full force. In other words, the Conference of Bishops may name specific materials or instruments as suitable in addition to those universally deemed so, but in the absence of such specification, only the “traditional” materials or those otherwise specified in the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani are to be regarded as approved.

Thus, the issue of musical instruments falls to the national episcopal conference instead of to the individual diocese.

Regarding the point that you raised about inculturation, it applies more along the lines of indigenous peoples and not necessarily Protestant ecclesial communities.

 

[moreorless]

I disagree with this.

Yes, if you were raised in a traditional church and if you didn’t venture into the “world,”, you will associate the organ with worship.

But many people did not grow up in traditional churches that use a liturgy in their worship. This is especially true of people who are not white, or Protestants in charismatic or “primitive” churches (e.g., some Baptist denominations).

For them, the organ is not necessarily a church instrument, but is associated with 1) rock bands, especially the druggy ones 2) silent movies 3) baseball games or 4) roller skating rinks.

I personally tend to associate the organ with rock bands more than with church because of the the times and the environment in which I grew up.

I also tend to associate acoustic guitars with church more than with rock bands because I grew up in a church where guitars were played on a weekly basis in worship services (I was raised in a Conference Baptist church and I was a child/teenager in the late 60s/early 70s.

Also keep in mind that for some people, the organ is more a performance instrument to be used for the beautiful classical–but not necessarily sacred–music pieces.

The more I read of the music debate threads in CAF, the more I’m convinced that many of the posters have no clue about life outside of their own very narrow sphere. I’m aware that especially people who are not from white, European backgrounds and/or grew up in certain areas of the U.S. have very different perceptions of certain musical instruments and musical styles. There is by no means a consensus in the U.S. on which instruments are secular and which are sacred. It all depends on where and how you grew up.

For example, for me, the music that is most sacred and least likely to be heard outside of church is gospel music. Yes, some of the rock or jazz bands use a gospel style once in a while, but for the most part, you will not hear gospel music anywhere except in church or on a Southern Christian radio station.

Thankfully Holy Mother Church has made some allowance in the rubrics for different instruments other than pipe organ, and some musical styles other than “ancient.” I would challenge CAF posters try very hard to think outside of their little box and stop interpreting the Church documents in such a narrow way that only allows one instrument and a few musical styles (chant and polyphony). I would challenge CAF posters to study other Christian musical traditions and come to understand that in many populations, guitars, pianos, etc. are not secular at all, and therefore, according to the Church documents, can be used in Mass.

I am certainly an advocate for chant and the organ, and I do not think that I “have no clue about life outside [my] own very narrow sphere.” I spent years as a pianist participating in guitar masses and singing Haugen/Hass repertoire. I argued vociferously on the other side of this question. I subscribed to National Catholic Reporter. &c. &c.

But the more I began to read and pray, the more I came to believe that what the Church wants is truly sacred music, music that makes us feel that we are entering someplace otherworldly. Objectively, I cannot see how Haugen/Hass guitar masses do that. I do not think that this is because I cannot see outside my own very narrow sphere.

I agree that “Holy Mother Church has made some allowance in the rubrics for different instruments other than pipe organ, and some musical styles other than ‘ancient,’” and I agree that this is necessary. I think the gripe that some of we “traddies” have is that, for the most part in the dioceses of the United States, the exception has swallowed the rule. There are people at my own parish – which is fairly orthodox and traditional – who look at me as though I have two heads when I suggest that we do more chant. People have gotten so used to guitars and “pop worship” style music that they don’t realize that there is another choice – and I daresay a better choice. Of course, there are circumstances where organ can’t be used, where guitars are all that a parish has, and so on. Of course I recognize that, and I am glad that the Church makes allowances for that. But that is what they are: allowances. The norm (in the non-liturgical sense of the word), the default position, is organ and chant. Everything else, licit thought it may be, is an exception to the rule.

Those of us who have grown up solely in the post-conciliar age have had something stolen from us: we have been robbed of our Catholic musical patrimony, a “treasure of inestimable value.” And we have such a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome that we do not even realize it.

 

[Cat]

**

I am certainly an advocate for chant and the organ, and I do not think that I “have no clue about life outside [my] own very narrow sphere.” I spent years as a pianist participating in guitar masses and singing Haugen/Hass repertoire. I argued vociferously on the other side of this question. I subscribed to National Catholic Reporter. &c. &c.

But the more I began to read and pray, the more I came to believe that what the Church wants is truly sacred music, music that makes us feel that we are entering someplace otherworldly. Objectively, I cannot see how Haugen/Hass guitar masses do that. I do not think that this is because I cannot see outside my own very narrow sphere.

I agree that “Holy Mother Church has made some allowance in the rubrics for different instruments other than pipe organ, and some musical styles other than ‘ancient,’” and I agree that this is necessary. I think the gripe that some of we “traddies” have is that, for the most part in the dioceses of the United States, the exception has swallowed the rule. There are people at my own parish – which is fairly orthodox and traditional – who look at me as though I have two heads when I suggest that we do more chant. People have gotten so used to guitars and “pop worship” style music that they don’t realize that there is another choice – and I daresay a better choice. Of course, there are circumstances where organ can’t be used, where guitars are all that a parish has, and so on. Of course I recognize that, and I am glad that the Church makes allowances for that. But that is what they are: allowances. The norm (in the non-liturgical sense of the word), the default position, is organ and chant. Everything else, licit thought it may be, is an exception to the rule.

Those of us who have grown up solely in the post-conciliar age have had something stolen from us: we have been robbed of our Catholic musical patrimony, a “treasure of inestimable value.” And we have such a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome that we do not even realize it.

I’m going to make a suggestion and I hope that you and the other “traddies” as you call yourselves will consider my suggestion and hopefully act upon it.

You will all get a lot further in your efforts to bring back chant and other forms of ancient music if you refrain from denouncing Haugen/Haas/contemporary Mass music.

The Church has NOT banned Haugen and Haas and the 70s folk/rock music that several CAF posters describe as “insipid” or “unsuitable for Mass.” If you don’t like it, well, that’s OK. If you feel like you’re experiencing Stockholm Syndrome, well, I won’t deny it. But the Church allows it, at least as of this posting.

Please realize that many of us truly love these hymns. We did Gather Us In at Mass on Saturday night (our most “traditional” priest, the one that chants all the prayers, was presiding), and as usual, I was brought to tears by the lyrics, which are so meaningful to me.

At least you were reasonable enough to phrase your statement as a personal opinion : “Objectively, I cannot see how Haugen/Hass guitar masses do that.” That’s wise of you.

But many other posters on CAF make pronouncements about this music and the instruments as though they are quoting from Church documents, when in reality, they’re just stating their own personal opinion.

People don’t take kindly to being told that the music that they love and truly helps them to draw near to God and appreciate the glories of the Holy Mass is “insipid” or “dumbed down” or unsuitable" or “secular” or worst of all–“Protestant.”

It would be much better strategy to gradually introduce ancient music without any criticism at all of the “modern” music. No turning up of the nose, or subtle comments about “re-gaining our Catholic heritage” or reminders that Marty Haugen is a Lutheran.

Just bring in the ancient and traditional pieces, wine and dine the Music Director until he/she is willing to use them in the Mass, and then just do it. This isn’t a political campaign. You’re not facing down an “opponent” and you don’t have to tear the other kind of music apart. That will just make people resent you and “your” music. That’s not your goal.

Your goal is to bring back the kind of music that you think is appropriate for Mass. The best way to accomplish that is gently and peaceably. If you come storming in with denunciations of the music that has been around for 40 years (yes, most Haugen and Haas songs have been around that long), and tell all of us who like the “modern” hymns that we have no idea what true Catholic music is all about–well, I won’t be impressed. I will think, “If the ancient music makes him that unloveable, then I want nothing to do with it.”

Does this all make sense? Does it sound like good advice?

Yes, I know you all want it to happen NOW, right NOW. Well, it won’t. Give it time. Take it easy. Woo people, don’t steamroll over them.

And in the end, you’ll see more ancient music and it will be accepted and eventually loved and honored.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

**

I’m going to make a suggestion and I hope that you and the other “traddies” as you call yourselves will consider my suggestion and hopefully act upon it.

You will all get a lot further in your efforts to bring back chant and other forms of ancient music if you refrain from denouncing Haugen/Haas/contemporary Mass music.

The Church has NOT banned Haugen and Haas and the 70s folk/rock music that several CAF posters describe as “insipid” or “unsuitable for Mass.” If you don’t like it, well, that’s OK. If you feel like you’re experiencing Stockholm Syndrome, well, I won’t deny it. But the Church allows it, at least as of this posting.

Please realize that many of us truly love these hymns. We did Gather Us In at Mass on Saturday night (our most “traditional” priest, the one that chants all the prayers, was presiding), and as usual, I was brought to tears by the lyrics, which are so meaningful to me.

At least you were reasonable enough to phrase your statement as a personal opinion : “Objectively, I cannot see how Haugen/Hass guitar masses do that.” That’s wise of you.

But many other posters on CAF make pronouncements about this music and the instruments as though they are quoting from Church documents, when in reality, they’re just stating their own personal opinion.

People don’t take kindly to being told that the music that they love and truly helps them to draw near to God and appreciate the glories of the Holy Mass is “insipid” or “dumbed down” or unsuitable" or “secular” or worst of all–“Protestant.”

It would be much better strategy to gradually introduce ancient music without any criticism at all of the “modern” music. No turning up of the nose, or subtle comments about “re-gaining our Catholic heritage” or reminders that Marty Haugen is a Lutheran.

Just bring in the ancient and traditional pieces, wine and dine the Music Director until he/she is willing to use them in the Mass, and then just do it. This isn’t a political campaign. You’re not facing down an “opponent” and you don’t have to tear the other kind of music apart. That will just make people resent you and “your” music. That’s not your goal.

Your goal is to bring back the kind of music that you think is appropriate for Mass. The best way to accomplish that is gently and peaceably. If you come storming in with denunciations of the music that has been around for 40 years (yes, most Haugen and Haas songs have been around that long), and tell all of us who like the “modern” hymns that we have no idea what true Catholic music is all about–well, I won’t be impressed. I will think, “If the ancient music makes him that unloveable, then I want nothing to do with it.”

Does this all make sense? Does it sound like good advice?

Yes, I know you all want it to happen NOW, right NOW. Well, it won’t. Give it time. Take it easy. Woo people, don’t steamroll over them.

And in the end, you’ll see more ancient music and it will be accepted and eventually loved and honored.

I second this!!!
Very well said, Cat!

 

[PatriceA]

I second this!!!
Very well said, Cat!

I third it! Great post Cat!

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, there are some legitimate concerns regarding Haugen. The fact that he has taken liberties with the parts of the Mass in his setting and wrote a setting for the EP that calls for misical instruments to be played during said prayer does not exactly make these suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Furthermore, when I contacted the CDWDS about Haugen’s settings, the official concurred. I was asked to send his settings and others to them for review.

Thus, if the CDWDS has issues with this, then the concerns expressed by not a few folks here are legitimate. Just because a lot of parishes use a guitar or Haugen’s music, that does not necessarily that it’s okay. It just seems that around here, quoting the documents does not mean much to some. I would suggest that, rather than disparaging us, that folks would read up on the Church’ history of Sacred Music in tandem with the documents and the writings of the Supreme Pontiffs.