What do you think of climate change?

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Yes, it would be unjustified to do that - if anyone was actually doing that.

you are intentionally misreading the paper. It clearly shows the different figures for the whole sample vs the group of frequent publishers.

The specific assumption I was addressing is not in fact assumed.

Yes, the survey does show more agreement among more active researchers. But the papers from less-frequently publishing authors were included in the total count.

The surveys consistently show a majority opinion but not close to 97%,…

I’m satisfied with that conclusion. I don’t need the 97% figure to justify acceptance of what the majority says.

 

[Theo520]

I’m satisfied with that conclusion. I don’t need the 97% figure to justify acceptance of what the majority says.

I too am satisfied with a discussion that reflects reality, but that discussion won’t call people deniers, it will focus on why such a large minority disagree, it will focus on the science.

When you look at people in the field, you get a majority not a 97% consensus.
66% - Gallup
53% - Bray and von Storch
etc.

 

[Theo520]

Wonder if I should make a Greta costume for tonight. Just have to print her face and make a ‘shaming’ sign to carry.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Theo520]

Escape from model land | Climate Etc.

“A non-technical summary of the Hawkmoth Effect is that “ you can be arbitrarily close to the correct equations, but still not be close to the correct solutions ”.

“Due to the Hawkmoth Effect, it is possible that even a good approximation to the equations of the climate system may not give output which accurately reflects the future climate.”

 

[HarryStotle]

As for birds, many more birds are killed by feral cats than are killed by wind turbines. And steps are being taken to minimize that kill.

I would think more cats (feral or otherwise) are killed by raptors – the principal victims of wind turbines – than kill raptors. Ever seen a feral cat try to take down a golden eagle? Neither have I.

Wind turbines killing more than just local birds | ScienceDaily

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

I hope not! They (wind turbines) are an eye sore.

For centuries the windmills in Holland have been featured in artwork, post cards, photographs. I have seen windfarms in Minnesota and I find them picturesque. But I suppose that is a matter of personal tastes. Tell that to the people of Holland.

And no one is fooled by the photoshopped picture of wind turbines superimposed on an urban environment. Not very honest!

You mean like this?

[IMG ]https://www.c2es.org/site/assets/up...rbine-size-bloomberg-e1507933796218.jpg[/IMG]

Not sure why depicting what a wind energy field of turbines would look like at a particular location is “dishonest.”
An actual field…
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Very picturesque, I suppose. If you are into modern industrial socialist artwork.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

As for birds, many more birds are killed by feral cats than are killed by wind turbines. And steps are being taken to minimize that kill.

I would think more cats (feral or otherwise) are killed by raptors

You might think that, but you would be wrong.

 

[HarryStotle]

Feral house cats kill raptors?

Ever seen a golden eagle close up? Talons could crush your shoulder bones with little effort.

Wind farms can have negative impacts upon biodiversity [5], including direct collision mortality, displacement from feeding or nesting areas, barrier effects to movement and habitat degradation or loss [6]. For volant species such as birds and bats, the risk of collision is a serious concern [5], and large numbers of birds and bats have been shown to be killed by turbines [5,7,8], particularly at aggregation sites, such as migratory bottlenecks or near breeding colonies [9]. It has been suggested anecdotally that some species groups, such as migratory bats, raptors and seabirds, may be particularly impacted [9,10], which may at least be partly linked to visual acuity [11].

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2017.0829

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Not sure why depicting what a wind energy field of turbines would look like at a particular location is “dishonest.”

Because there are absolutely no plans to put a field of wind turbines in such a location. Very dishonest!

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Not sure why depicting what a wind energy field of turbines would look like at a particular location is “dishonest.”

Because there are absolutely no plans to put a field of wind turbines in such a location. Very dishonest!

You know that for sure?

Tony Heller lives in Boulder and is claiming they are.

This article from two years ago seems to support that Colorado is dotting the landscape with wind turbines…

Colorado wind power is rising with 1,880 huge turbines erected across the prairie, twisting white blades as long as soccer fields, a cleaner source of energy replacing fossil fuels.

Colorado wind power rising; 1,880 turbines and Xcel, Vestas plan more – The Denver Post

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Colorado is dotting the landscape

The rural landscape. It is still dishonest to pretend wind farms are going to look anything like the photoshopped image you showed.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Colorado is dotting the landscape

The rural landscape. It is still dishonest to pretend wind farms are going to look anything like the photoshopped image you showed.

You are deflecting. Do you have proof Tony Heller is “pretending?” He claimed, as a resident of the community of Boulder, that the plans are in progress. Do you have proof otherwise?

 

[Freddy]

LeafByNiggle:

HarryStotle:

Not sure why depicting what a wind energy field of turbines would look like at a particular location is “dishonest.”

Because there are absolutely no plans to put a field of wind turbines in such a location. Very dishonest!

You know that for sure?

Tony Heller lives in Boulder and is claiming they are.

This article from two years ago seems to support that Colorado is dotting the landscape with wind turbines…

Colorado wind power is rising with 1,880 huge turbines erected across the prairie, twisting white blades as long as soccer fields, a cleaner source of energy replacing fossil fuels.

Colorado wind power rising; 1,880 turbines and Xcel, Vestas plan more – The Denver Post

‘We don’t need wind turbines. And they look ugly as well!’ Is that the argument? Reminds of the two old ladies in the nursing home:

‘The food here is terrible’
‘Yes. And such small portions!’

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You are deflecting. Do you have proof Tony Heller is “pretending?” He claimed, as a resident of the community of Boulder, that the plans are in progress. Do you have proof otherwise?

I don’t know who Tony Heller is, why I should care what he says, and whether he actually supports the lie of your photoshopped image.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

LeafByNiggle:

HarryStotle:

Not sure why depicting what a wind energy field of turbines would look like at a particular location is “dishonest.”

Because there are absolutely no plans to put a field of wind turbines in such a location. Very dishonest!

You know that for sure?

Tony Heller lives in Boulder and is claiming they are.

This article from two years ago seems to support that Colorado is dotting the landscape with wind turbines…

Colorado wind power is rising with 1,880 huge turbines erected across the prairie, twisting white blades as long as soccer fields, a cleaner source of energy replacing fossil fuels.

Colorado wind power rising; 1,880 turbines and Xcel, Vestas plan more – The Denver Post

‘We don’t need wind turbines. And they look ugly as well!’ Is that the argument? Reminds of the two old ladies in the nursing home:

‘The food here is terrible’
‘Yes. And such small portions!’

I thought the entire premise of preserving the environment was the beauty and complexity of nature as a sublime reality?

So now you are advocating throwing the beauty of nature out completely in order to preserve nature some abstract idea we call “the environment” absolutely devoid of all natural beauty?

Is that your argument?

Well, okay.

I prefer an innocuous power plant with as much of the natural beauty of the environment intact than putting up tens of thousands of UGLY steel behemoths.

To each his own, I suppose, but you now can’t honestly claim you are for preserving the beauty of nature, given your two old ladies anecdote.

‘What’s left of the natural beauty here is terrible.’
‘Yes. And in such small portions.’

Well played sir!

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

You are deflecting. Do you have proof Tony Heller is “pretending?” He claimed, as a resident of the community of Boulder, that the plans are in progress. Do you have proof otherwise?

I don’t know who Tony Heller is, why I should care what he says, and whether he actually supports the lie of your photoshopped image.

And I don’t know who you are nor why I should care what you say. And whether you know anything at all about the situation in Boulder is objectively in question.

Tony Heller, being a resident there, likely knows something you don’t. Which is why I care, regardless of what you think.

 

[Freddy]

I thought the entire premise of preserving the environment was the beauty and complexity of nature as a sublime reality?

So now you are advocating throwing the beauty of nature out completely in order to preserve nature some abstract idea we call “the environment” absolutely devoid of all natural beauty?

Is your argument?

Well, okay.

I prefer an innocuous power plant with as much of the natural beauty of the environment intact than putting up tens of thousands of UGLY steel behemoths.

To each his own, I suppose, but you now can’t honestly claim you are for preserving the beauty of nature, given your two old ladies anecdote.

‘What’s left of the natural beauty here is terrible.’
‘Yes. And in such small portions.’

Well played sir!

The idea is not to keep parts of the countryside looking pretty. Although we should certainly be concerned about the impact that structures have on the environment. Now if you want to include comments from someone in Boulder who has seen the impacts wind turbines have in his back yard then maybe we should also include comments from someone who has recently travelled extensively across the States to see what he thinks. Including Boulder. And likewise Europe as well.

So as Woody sang, from California to the New York island. As far north as Nevada and down to the Mexican border. From Arizona to Florida and all points in between. Including Boulder (nice gin distillery there if you like a drop) and Estes Park and the Rockies. All by road. Over a period of 6 months last year.

Now I’m about as green as they come. I don’t exactly hug trees but I like an unspoilt vista just as much, if not more, than the next guy. And over all those months and those tens of thousands of kms across umpteen states, I saw very many wind turbines. And how many times did my wife and I think ‘Gee, that’s a blot on the landscape!’

Not once.

So let’s include those comments as well shall we?

Edit: Forgot to mention it but it’s worth saying: Americans were some of the friendliest people I have ever met. But we did have house rules that we avoided discussions about guns, politics and religion.

 

[HarryStotle]

Edit: Forgot to mention it but it’s worth saying: Americans were some of the friendliest people I have ever met. But we did have house rules that we avoided discussions about guns, politics and religion.

So they were only ‘friendly’ on the surface? Is that your point?

Wouldn’t ‘friendly’ go deep into the bones, so to speak?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Edit: Forgot to mention it but it’s worth saying: Americans were some of the friendliest people I have ever met. But we did have house rules that we avoided discussions about guns, politics and religion.

So they were only ‘friendly’ on the surface? Is that your point?

Wouldn’t ‘friendly’ go deep into the bones, so to speak?

No, friendly period. But I have strong views on religion, guns and politics. And the last thing I wanted to do was get into an argument over either. I wasn’t worried about the guy in the bar getting all uptight and boisterous. I was worried that I might end up acting that way. And as we were guests so to speak…

As it turned out, we avoided religion and politics but a couple of discussions on guns were very amicable.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

And I don’t know who you are nor why I should care what you say. And whether you know anything at all about the situation in Boulder is objectively in question.

Tony Heller, being a resident there, likely knows something you don’t. Which is why I care, regardless of what you think.

OK, we can all safely assume that you have no support for your contention that wind farms are planned in a residential setting in the manner shown in your fake photograph, since you decline to give any such support.