What do you think of the charismatic gifts of Pentecost?

[guanophore]

I was participating in a thread about the gift of tongues, and found myself surprised by the hostility many Catholics have to these gifts, which are clearly the birthright of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Do traditional Catholics believe as some of the Baptists do that the gifts written about in the NT and the early fathers have ceased?

Can you comment about these two verses?

1 Cor. 14.39 - Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

1 Thes 5:19-21 - Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[Wesley7]

We receive the the Holy Spirit. In turn which lead us to manifest virtues. (holiness)

 

[FirstCalled]

From what I’ve heard our early Church fathers, 400s, I forget who exactly will look it up, said that no one exhibited signs of these pentecostal gifts, anywhere, within the Church. It was something that had it’s time and place and then went dormant. Fast forward to today and we are seeing it occurring within the Church. Probably because of the influence of popular protestants in the past 100 years who started praying in ‘tongues’ when no one has really since the NT was written.
It is said that this has reached into Catholic circles.
I have attended several Charismatic events and heard priests talk about praying in tongues.
They say it doesn’t matter that you can’t understand what you say, they say pick some random syllables and say them over and over.
This is not prayer.
It also says by Paul that when in Church one should speak in native tongues so that people can understand.
But all in all I do believe we can trace this modern Charismatic movement to heretical protestants who popularized in around the 1900-1930 period. It endangers one’s soul because when you can have this experience with the Spirit you take yourself out of the guidance of one of His chosen apostles, their teachings, as well as the sacraments they can confer to you by believing that you can unite with God without the Church and her sacraments.
In my humble opinion. I could be wrong.

 

[guanophore]

We receive the the Holy Spirit. In turn which lead us to manifest virtues. (holiness)

Yes, but I was not referring to the virtues, or the character gifts of the HS that are from Isaiah. I was talking about the ones mentioned in I Cor. 12 and 14, as well as other passages.

Do you have any thoughts on the scripture verses above?

 

[JReducation]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit: speaking in tongues, prophesy, etc are real. They have been with us since the foundation of the Church. There is nothing in Catholic theology opposed this idea. There are actually stories of saints that suggest that they had such gifts, possibly other people too who have never been canonized. There is no reason to believe that they are not granted by the Holy Spirit.

The problem in the Protestant tradition and among some Catholics too is that the appreciation for the external gifts is often so intense, that there is a loss of appreciation for the rest that should also be part of the spiritual life: sacraments, Liturgy of the Hours, and contemplative prayer.

There was a long period in the history of the Church when these gifts were not paid much attention, because of a fear of superstition creeping in. This is always possible with anything in the spiritual life, but especially with signs and wonders that are more external. But these gifts have always been around.

If one studies Mystical Theology, one finds many examples of these gifts present in our history. You have people like Padre Pio who read souls, this is one form of prophesy. St. Francis spoke in tongue when he prayed. Some reports suggest the Pope John Paul II also prayed in tongues. People say that they heard murmurrings of something that sounded like language when he prayed. Healing as always been present among us.

This is not as new or as Protestant as people may think. It simply was something that was not talked about very much. Again, these are external signs of God’s presence. The spiritual life must always seek to go deeper into contemplation. But they certainly are a good place to begin as long as one keeps things in proper perspective.

We should not try to ban these things, but rather try to blend it with the rest of our spiritual life. If one has a gift, let him use it. If he does not have it, let him not try to force it. This was the teaching of St. Francis on these gifts. Fancis taught this to the brothers as early as 1209, long before the birth of Evangelical Protestantism as we know it. The rule in Mystical Theology, for judging the veracity of these gifts, is the measure of charity on the part of the person with the gift. All of God’s gifts are meant to produce works of charity.

A gift that does not produce works of charity is not a gift, but a fabrication, whether it’s speaking in tongues or contemplation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[po18guy]

I have never spoken a single syllable in a tongue, as my gift lies elsewhere. However, after receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I lost all fear of discussing my faith and of speaking about it. My faith life catapulted ahead. I joined CAF And, yes, there is genuine hostility toward the charisms from some. This is a tragedy, of course, as so much is being bottled up in each believer and not used for God’s glory.

I think that much of the problem results from those Catholics who are averse to what they perceive as protestant characteristics of charismatic behavior. But, where do they think the protestants got it? As well, some think that the Catholic faith is the “sober” faith, with all emotions and actions well-controlled. Well, yes and no.

Since I decided not to care whether or not I appeared to be a fool for the Lord, minor miracles have occurred in prayer before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Supernatural occurrences. Like nothing before.

I don’t participate in many of the Charismatic Renewal’s functions, as there are parts of them that just don’t suit me. But, the gifts of the Spirit? Oh, yeah!

 

[FirstCalled]

This is why it’s so popular, at least according to my Universities Religious Studies professors.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival

I don’t have much respect for most Charismatic movements. As it seems like they turn on their “gifts” when it is convenient and they are having a meeting. I’ve seen people act as though possessed and other lay people attempting to cast out demons. All this before the exposed Eucharist with priests present.
Absurd, undignified, and disrespectful to say the least.

 

[Willy_Jose]

guanophore,

Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium expounds on this while referencing those verses.
(Chapter II, Sec 12)
…
It is not only through the sacraments and the ministries of the Church that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God and enriches it with virtues, but, "allotting his gifts to everyone according as He wills,(114) He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. By these gifts He makes them fit and ready to undertake the various tasks and offices which contribute toward the renewal and building up of the Church, according to the words of the Apostle: “The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit”.(115) These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.(116)

I would take special note of the last sentence.

 

[Willy_Jose]

…judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs…

At the conclusion of the seminar of the Pontifical Council for the Laity on ecclesial movements last May 17, 2008 Pope Benedict XVI exhorts the 150 bishop participants:

*… “Go out to meet with much love the movements and new communities; let us make an effort to know their reality adequately, without superficial impressions or reductive judgments.”…

…"It also helps us to understand that the ecclesial movements and new communities are not a problem or an extra risk that further weighs on our grave duties.”…

…“No! They are a gift of the Lord, a precious resource to enrich our whole Christian community with their charisms. Thus, a confident welcome that gives space to and values their contributions in the life of the local Churches must not be lacking.”…

…“Those who are called to the service of discernment and leadership, should not lord it over the charisms, but should rather beware of the danger of suffocating them, resisting the temptation to make uniform that which the Spirit willed to be multiform to concur in the building up and the enlargement of the one Body of Christ, that the same Spirit makes firm in unity.”…*

 

[wisdomseeker]

From what I’ve heard our early Church fathers, 400s, I forget who exactly will look it up, said that no one exhibited signs of these pentecostal gifts, anywhere, within the Church. It was something that had it’s time and place and then went dormant. Fast forward to today and we are seeing it occurring within the Church. Probably because of the influence of popular protestants in the past 100 years who started praying in ‘tongues’ when no one has really since the NT was written.
It is said that this has reached into Catholic circles.
I have attended several Charismatic events and heard priests talk about praying in tongues.
They say it doesn’t matter that you can’t understand what you say, they say pick some random syllables and say them over and over.
This is not prayer.
It also says by Paul that when in Church one should speak in native tongues so that people can understand.
But all in all I do believe we can trace this modern Charismatic movement to heretical protestants who popularized in around the 1900-1930 period. It endangers one’s soul because when you can have this experience with the Spirit you take yourself out of the guidance of one of His chosen apostles, their teachings, as well as the sacraments they can confer to you by believing that you can unite with God without the Church and her sacraments.
In my humble opinion. I could be wrong.

you are right.

 

[wisdomseeker]

…judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs…

At the conclusion of the seminar of the Pontifical Council for the Laity on ecclesial movements last May 17, 2008 Pope Benedict XVI exhorts the 150 bishop participants:

*… “Go out to meet with much love the movements and new communities; let us make an effort to know their reality adequately, without superficial impressions or reductive judgments.”…

…"It also helps us to understand that the ecclesial movements and new communities are not a problem or an extra risk that further weighs on our grave duties.”…

…“No! They are a gift of the Lord, a precious resource to enrich our whole Christian community with their charisms. Thus, a confident welcome that gives space to and values their contributions in the life of the local Churches must not be lacking.”…

…“Those who are called to the service of discernment and leadership, should not lord it over the charisms, but should rather beware of the danger of suffocating them, resisting the temptation to make uniform that which the Spirit willed to be multiform to concur in the building up and the enlargement of the one Body of Christ, that the same Spirit makes firm in unity.”…*

what does this means? are you trying to say that the pope says that this movement is real? this letter does not speak of charismatic movements. at least not to me.

 

[Big_Dummy]

The problem as I see is that modern tongues do not conform to biblical tongues. Read Acts 2, people from many areas heard the disciples speaking in their own languages. Today in the US one would expect based on Acts 2, that English speaking people would speak in at least Spanish and French and maybe in Native American languages. But, all scientific linquistic studies of modern tongues have reach the conclusion that there is nothing there that even resembles a human language. I Cor 13:1 in Greek starts off with “if it were possible for me to speak all the human languages and even the language of heaven(hebrew) and have not agape…” with the understanding that it is not possible for one to do so without supernatural help. Basically, what is going on today got started in mormonism then infected protestant churches and finally infected catholic churches.

As an experiment, take a dozen people who says that they have the gift of interpretation. Play for each a tape of a recored message in a lanuage they do not know and ask for their interpretations. Not one will get the correct interpretation and expect many of the interpretations to contradict or at least be different subjects. Also, do this when nothing special is going on at their church like missions week.

google.com/#hl=en&q=Mormonism+speaking+tongues+azusa+street+Pentecostal&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=de0b130ec09da8bf

Actually the early Mormon movement was a predecessor of Pentecostalism.
christianchallenge.org/departingupc/DU022.html

Articles of Faith #7, March 1842; Pearl of Great Price;: "We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

WHAT DOES MORMON HISTORY SAY?
frontiernet.net/~bcmmin/tongue1.htm

 

[PatriceA]

I have never spoken a single syllable in a tongue, as my gift lies elsewhere. However, after receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I lost all fear of discussing my faith and of speaking about it. My faith life catapulted ahead. I joined CAF And, yes, there is genuine hostility toward the charisms from some. This is a tragedy, of course, as so much is being bottled up in each believer and not used for God’s glory.

I think that much of the problem results from those Catholics who are averse to what they perceive as protestant characteristics of charismatic behavior. But, where do they think the protestants got it? As well, some think that the Catholic faith is the “sober” faith, with all emotions and actions well-controlled. Well, yes and no.

Since I decided not to care whether or not I appeared to be a fool for the Lord, minor miracles have occurred in prayer before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Supernatural occurrences. Like nothing before.


I don’t participate in many of the Charismatic Renewal’s functions, as there are parts of them that just don’t suit me. But, the gifts of the Spirit? Oh, yeah!

 

[PatriceA]

I have never spoken a single syllable in a tongue, as my gift lies elsewhere. However, after receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I lost all fear of discussing my faith and of speaking about it. My faith life catapulted ahead. I joined CAF And, yes, there is genuine hostility toward the charisms from some. This is a tragedy, of course, as so much is being bottled up in each believer and not used for God’s glory.

I think that much of the problem results from those Catholics who are averse to what they perceive as protestant characteristics of charismatic behavior. But, where do they think the protestants got it? As well, some think that the Catholic faith is the “sober” faith, with all emotions and actions well-controlled. Well, yes and no.

Since I decided not to care whether or not I appeared to be a fool for the Lord, minor miracles have occurred in prayer before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Supernatural occurrences. Like nothing before.

I don’t participate in many of the Charismatic Renewal’s functions, as there are parts of them that just don’t suit me. But, the gifts of the Spirit? Oh, yeah!

 

[Willy_Jose]

From what I’ve heard our early Church fathers, 400s, I forget who exactly will look it up, said that no one exhibited signs of these pentecostal gifts, anywhere, within the Church. It was something that had it’s time and place and then went dormant. Fast forward to today and we are seeing it occurring within the Church. Probably because of the influence of popular protestants in the past 100 years who started praying in ‘tongues’ when no one has really since the NT was written.
It is said that this has reached into Catholic circles.
I have attended several Charismatic events and heard priests talk about praying in tongues.
They say it doesn’t matter that you can’t understand what you say, they say pick some random syllables and say them over and over.
This is not prayer.
It also says by Paul that when in Church one should speak in native tongues so that people can understand.
But all in all I do believe we can trace this modern Charismatic movement to heretical protestants who popularized in around the 1900-1930 period. It endangers one’s soul because when you can have this experience with the Spirit you take yourself out of the guidance of one of His chosen apostles, their teachings, as well as the sacraments they can confer to you by believing that you can unite with God without the Church and her sacraments.
In my humble opinion. I could be wrong.

you are right.

For our faithful education, kindly substantiate, and cite the official and standing Church pronouncements which make the sweeping generalization that “praying in toungues…this is not prayer…modern Charismatic movement…endangers one’s soul…”.

Thank you.

 

[dconklin]

I find it odd that the people who are most opposed to or afraid of the gift of tongues are the strongest proponents of the TLM.

Just saying…

 

[wisdomseeker]

For our faithful education, kindly substantiate, and cite the official and standing Church pronouncements which make the sweeping generalization that “praying in toungues…this is not prayer…modern Charismatic movement…endangers one’s soul…”.

Thank you.

here listen to this if you will.

sensustraditionis.org/multimedia.html

click on pentecost sermon.

 

[Cristiano]

I was participating in a thread about the gift of tongues, and found myself surprised by the hostility many Catholics have to these gifts, which are clearly the birthright of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Do traditional Catholics believe as some of the Baptists do that the gifts written about in the NT and the early fathers have ceased?

Can you comment about these two verses?

1 Cor. 14.39 - Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

1 Thes 5:19-21 - Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Thank you for your feedback.

Speaking in tongues does not mean that you speak only mumbo-jumbo. It simply means speaking in a tongue that it is not your mother one. When I look at Acts it simply says that people that spoke in tongues did that because of a gift of the Holy Spirit. I do not see to much of a digression on the definition of tongues. I think that limiting the idea of speaking in tongues only to ordinary languages or only to strange sounding vocalizations appears to go against what I read in the Bible. When I hear the institution narrative and consecration in English or Italian I have a specific reaction, when I hear it in Latin I react to it at a different level, and when to comes to Aramaic (that I do not understand) I react to it at an even more different level.

In relation to prophecies I think that it is simply the capability of being able to predict consequences from existing behaviors and not the ability of reading the future. Such a capability is a gift of the Holy Spirit because prediction is often confused by the presence of different factors and only the Holy spirit can give the clarity of mind to discern the important factors.

 

[Melchior_1]

From what I’ve heard our early Church fathers, 400s, I forget who exactly will look it up, said that no one exhibited signs of these pentecostal gifts, anywhere, within the Church.

There’s a couple of Church Fathers who disagree with you.

For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time. (Justin Martyr, c.150)
*
Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.* (Justin Martyr, c.150)

It appears as if the gifts Paul spoke of were still evident in Justin’s time.
*
Now the soul and the spirit are certainly a part of the man, but certainly not the man; for the perfect man consists in the commingling and the union of the soul receiving the spirit of the Father, and the admixture of that fleshly nature which was moulded after the image of God. For this reason does the apostle declare, “We speak wisdom among them that are perfect,” terming those persons “perfect” who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual. For if any one take away the substance of flesh, that is, of the handiwork [of God], and understand that which is purely spiritual, such then would not be a spiritual man but would be the spirit of a man, or the Spirit of God.*

• St. Irenaeus.

Of course, Brother JR brought up some excellent points, especially that several Saints through the last couple thousand years have exhibited these gifts as well.

 

[mick321]

I find it odd that the people who are most opposed to or afraid of the gift of tongues are the strongest proponents of the TLM.

Just saying…

Likewise, I find it a bit odd that many who claim to be interested in the “gift of tongues” cannot find the time, motivation or patience to learn less than 850 words of Latin necessary to assist in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy.

Happy Holidays.